| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
 Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 04:16
|
 |
Hey just wondering if anyone has played around with different knuckle arms to gain different camber.
i have a ta22 but i have seen different toyota knuckle arms used and they still fit the same strut.
Jason
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 04:30
|
|
How will the steering arms (if thats what your referring to?), effect your camber? Unless the ball joint hole is offset a large amount?
Cheers
Wilbo
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 05:08
|
|
Yeah, the stub axle on different struts could do this.. but can't see how knuckles could?
you can get roll centre adjusters that are offset and sit between the knuckle/strut. not sure how i feel about these though.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 05:11
|
|
Perhaps he means lower control arms?
Cheers
Wilbo
|
|
|
Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 05:58
|
|
If you mean lower control arms, then TA22 arms fit AE86 and Sigma arms fit AE86 (with very minor mods, search it) so I guess Sigma arms will fit a TA22. Should give you about 20mm extra each side or about 2.5deg camber.
Hen
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 06:05
|
|
i have seen a few diffferent knucle arms one of a ra65 i think and they they were set about .5 or 1 cm further awar form the center of the car, ie the strut would be angled out that little further?
Jason
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 07:14
|
|
| ta2272 wrote on Thu, 14 April 2005 16:05 |
i have seen a few diffferent knucle arms one of a ra65 i think and they they were set about .5 or 1 cm further awar form the center of the car, ie the strut would be angled out that little further?
Jason
|
It would help of you would use the right terminology....
The arms which I suspect you are speaking of are called lower control arms. Call them that and a lot more people will know what you are talking about 
Cheers
Wilbo
|
|
|
Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 07:16
|
|
Hmm or if we are talking about knuckes.. i wonder if any are offset, eg. the balljoint isn't in the centre of the knuckle.
In that case you could possibly have camber changes.
I'm not saying there is such a knuckle.. but never know?
|
|
|
Location:
Castle Hill, Sydney
Registered:
February 2004
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 09:12
|
|
|
offset RCA's maybe?
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 15:08
|
|
No i am talking about the knuckle arms, 
i have see different knuckle arms as i have said were the bit were the ball joint comes through is not in the center it is to the side, in turn giving a possible camber adjustment.
Jason
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Thu, 14 April 2005 15:13
|
|
|
Go play at the pick-a-part with your vernier calipers.
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 00:26
|
|
|
sorry?
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 00:37
|
|
| ta2272 wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 01:08 |
No i am talking about the knuckle arms,
i have see different knuckle arms as i have said were the bit were the ball joint comes through is not in the center it is to the side, in turn giving a possible camber adjustment.
Jason
|
Call them steering arms then 
Cheers
Wilbo
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 06:50
|
|
work it out mathematically. how far off to the side are these offset steering arms? how tall is the strut?
say the strut is 400mm long, and the steering arm has the balljoint offset 5mm to towards the outside. tan(5/400) is 0.0125 degrees of extra negative camber. ie: bugger all
small diameter springs and adjustable strut tops is one way to get decent camber. as is installing longer LCAs, but this will increase your track, call an engineer first (if you care about legality)
or any decent suspension place can bend the base of your struts for you, to a certain extent. get a wheel alignment, look at what camber decide how much camber you want and give somewhere a call and discuss your options
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 06:56
|
|
actually sorry that's the wrong calculation  it should be tan^inv(5/400) which is 0.008 degrees. even less!
that's what you get for sleeping through high school
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 09:01
|
|
|
you dont get much adjustment with strut tops in a ta22 (even with coilovers).
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 12:51
|
|
|
exactly how much camber do you want!?
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 13:47
|
|
|
around 1.5 neg
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 13:47
|
|
| Super Jamie wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 16:56 |
actually sorry that's the wrong calculation it should be tan^inv(5/400) which is 0.008 degrees. even less!
that's what you get for sleeping through high school
|
The basic suggestion is you'll get stuff all. If you need more negative camber you could look at a strut bend or longer lower control arms.
I think RA40 arms are a bit longer than TA22 arms, maybe 10mm? Punch 10mm into your high school trig formulas as described by Super Jamie and you'll get an idea of what is achievable.
However the actual change in camber may be different than calculated given the inherent angle in the strut/hub assembly?
Maybe go back to basics. What are you trying to achieve (first principles)? A reduction in understeer? An improvement in turn-in? (similar but not identical principles)
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 14:05
|
|
| ta2272 wrote on Fri, 15 April 2005 23:47 |
around 1.5 neg
|
1.5* neg is easily achievable with strut tops. On the 86 you can get 2.3* neg at the very least, and several TA22s i know of run 1-2* neg for track days.
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 14:47
|
|
|
What struts are you using?
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Fri, 15 April 2005 16:27
|
|
Running longer control arms will achieve these results. This will also give you more track. As suggested, go to a pick-a-part with some measuring tool and find some marginally longer lower control arms. Sigma arms work well on a hachi or similar corolla or celica, but I think give a little too much camber (I got around neg 3.5). Do a comparisons with some cresidas!
Buying adjustable camber tops are expensive, and although you will have adjustability, you will be able to achieve the desired camber with some decent research for a small portion of the cost of camber tops.
Best of Luck!
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 00:01
|
|
September im glad you said go back to basics, i basicly want my car to handle better at the moment it isnt handling to great as i let a rally driver have a drive he said "its stiff and handles ok but i wouldnt go around to many corners fast"
im unsure of what to do to make it go better, after a wheel alignment i have 0 degrees camber with current setup, and my current setup is as follows.
Front ra40 struts
lowerd springs (unknown brand pring rate etc)
koni adjustable shocks (which are adjusted to stiffest which is being corrected soon.)
27mm front swaybar
14mm swaybar in rear
I am in QLD and unsure of what pic a part is, we just have wreckers here and they dont allow you in the yard anymore to campare parts or measure up so i have to know what control arm i should buy.
thanks alot guys
Jason
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 00:44
|
|
so basically you have the front setup too stiff and it understeers. is that an aftermarket swaybar? change it back to stock. definately adjust your dampers down. a suspension place can take your springs out and measure the spring rate on them. i would think maybe something around 175-225lb would be decent for a ta22? not sure
there are plenty of wreckers in qld who let you go into the yard. kelly wrecking in zilmere, abc wreckers and wacol wreckers out near ipswich. there are others i don't know about as well. if you're in brisbane/goldcoast anyway
you can make your own adjustable strut tops out of steel plate and bolts from bolt barn, and bearings from the bearing shop like i did. metal places will cut any design out for you. you'll need access to a drill press and a thread tap and alot of patience. then just take what needs to be welded into somewhere and pay them to tack a few bolts in for the bolts which hold the thing to the body. all up mine cost me just over $100, but pointless with stock springs as there's bugger all adjustment area
if i were you, i'd turn down the dampers, use a stock front sway bar, and see how you go. control arms sound like too much hassle and extra track makes your car look silly. unless you're racing competitively on many varying types of racetracks, adjustable tops aren't required. get your struts bent for more camber if you still want it. 1 or 1.5 degrees is plenty for street use
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 01:08
|
|
also, whats the rest of your wheel alignment set to?
castor changes the camber of the struts as you turn more. you can usually wind a heap of castor into an old toyota, i'm running about 2.75 degrees at the moment. some people think anything over 2.5 is a waste
toe changes greatly how the car turns. toe in will make initial turn in harder, but the car will be alot more stable through the corner, and at high speed, and over crappy road surfaces. toe out makes your car turn in quicker (and alot easier), but it will also respond more to road graduations (this is called bump steer), and will tend to move about a bit more at speed (say >80km/h)
on the street you usually run no toe, or slight toe in. on a racecar you may run toe out depending on situation. currently i have 1mm toe in, and it's nice. i used to have about 4mm toe out on my corolla, which i liked for cornering, but also didn't like beacuse i'm driving the car on god awful regional nsw roads made by council workers who can't do their job properly - hit a really bad patch at 160km/h and i'd be fighting to keep the car in a straight line
it's easy to wreck the handling of a car by just bolting on parts nilly willy, you also need to look at what you're doing with it. if you're just driving on the street, lower it so it looks good but isn't causing problems, stiffen up the springs a little, get good shocks and don't touch anything else
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 01:54
|
|
The main problem with longer lower control arms is that they throw all your steering angles out, and quite often you get shocking bumpsteer. That and they are illegal for IPRA.
I have some 25mm offset RCAs (35mm high) in my race car, which get around the problem of not having enough neg, and also dont introduce shocking bump steer. The steering angles are different, but by simply running an extra mm of toe out it all settles back down and behaves itself.
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 02:35
|
|
i am deffinately goign to lossen of the dampers but what will putting a softer swaybar in do for me?
Jason
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 02:46
|
|
because a too-stiff front bar reduces transfer of weight to the inside wheel, and you don't get as much steering grip through a corner
an upgraded front swaybar is great for high-speed fairly-open corners, such as if you were racing on queensland raceway. if you're getting into twisty stuff like hillclimbs, you want a stock front bar and i'd even tell you to remove the rear bar so the front turns in better at low speed, and back wheels can get more traction on the graduated road surface
every setup depends on its purpose, everything's a tradeoff
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 04:57
|
|
Recommendation:
- Back off the damper rate.
- Get the poundage of the springs calculated; aim for around 200lb MAX for street use.
- Refit standard stabilisers.
- Align for zero camber, 2deg castor, 1mm toe in.
Drive that, get a feel for what the car is doing, and let us know what symptom you want to address (not just what part you want to change).
PS. what size tyres are you running? Aim for equal F/R section width and equal tYYYre pressures for testing purposes (approx 32-34PSI cold).
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 05:03
|
|
For reference, my setup;
270lb front coils
170lb rear coils
appropriate dampers
195/60R14 (35psi front, 31psi rear)
standard stabilisers
approximately neutral toe
-1deg front camber
max front castor
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 05:50
|
|
|
how do i adjust castor and toe in?? what do i need to get or change.
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 06:57
|
|
|
you drive to a tyre shop with an electronic wheel alignment computer and $40
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 09:54
|
|
|
dont you need adjustable strut tops to ADJUST THIS THINGS?
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sat, 16 April 2005 13:08
|
|
| Super Jamie wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 16:57 |
you drive to a tyre shop with an electronic wheel alignment computer and $40
|
| ta2272 wrote on Sat, 16 April 2005 19:54 |
dont you need adjustable strut tops to ADJUST THIS THINGS?
|
Um, no. If you've got access to standard stabilisers and are presently running neutral camber with the existing struts you can do most of what I've suggested for next to nothing.
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sun, 17 April 2005 00:01
|
|
no, toe is adjusted with the tie rods, which are part of your steering setup. castor is adjusted with the castor rods, which your celica definately has. these are both normal adjustments for any street car. adjustable tops allow you to adjust camber only
if you know what you're doing, you can do your own wheel alignments with string and a protractor, i have a couple of drifter friends who do this because they change their setups so much. i also have an old mate who used to build racing cars back in the 60s, and later on got pretty heavily into karts, he does all his wheel alignments by eye, and gets them pretty much spot on too
the rest of us take our cars to tyre shops with an electronic wheel alignment setup, which is what you should do
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sun, 17 April 2005 02:04
|
|
27mm sounds like a HUGE front swaybar (I agree design does come into effect), especially when you take into account that swaybar stiffness is exponentially related to swaybar diameter.
whiteline have a pdf showing dia/stiffness
With a front bar that large, I suspect you will get very little weight transfer and that will result in poor turn in...
Cheers
Wilbo
|
|
|
Location:
qld
Registered:
May 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sun, 17 April 2005 03:16
|
|
that means my front bar is 173% stiffer than stock thought i havnt noticed poor handling with turn in more just understear and unhappy cornering at speed.
Jason
|
|
|
Location:
brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Sun, 17 April 2005 03:17
|
|
reading through all of this id recommend searching
through the forums and learning a bit more about front
suspension and suspension in general, theres a lot too
it and its a very personal choice too.
most wreckers i have been too in qld i have walked straight
through to the cars, abc wreckers - wacol/logan/oxley, sailsbury wreckers etc and wandered around.
"pick a part" - wreckers. go play with vernier calipers at wreckers, ie get a set of vernier calipers and go measure what you want at a wreckers. trade tools tommorow half price digital
verniers metric/imperial $35! ill be getting a set.
theres a friggin load of tech to suspension so the more you
know the easier and cheaper it will be to get what you want.
learn caster/camber/toe and how they work, also springs
shocks, swaybars, roll centres, control arms, wishbone,
live axle suspension, macpherson strut etc etc
ps : adjustable strut tops for xt130 are much cheaper than the
other model types. rose joints are illegal. longer control
arm change is common and easy from sigma. tyres cost
money as in this /----\ will see you buying a set every week
lol.
good luck on it all
[Updated on: Sun, 17 April 2005 03:18]
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Mon, 18 April 2005 13:00
|
|
|
for the record, about 1cm change in strut top per deg camber change (more if strut length is less than 57cm).
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
|
On Probation
Location:
North East NSW
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: Using different knucklearms for diff camber
|
Tue, 19 April 2005 22:29
|
|
hey john, long time no speak
stock ke25 spring pack with extra 8mm leaf added underneath top leaf. entire pack reset 50mm lower. pedders gas shocks. full polytuff urethane bushes throughout
both back wheels run about 0.5 degrees negative camber. that may be how they were designed, or this housing is out of a paddock basher that got jumped a bit, so maybe i'm just lucky
|
|
|
