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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 05:52
 
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Yeah, Peewee translated what you meant. I'll disconnect the knock sensors and see what happens. If it throws a code to say the knock sensor isn't working, will it drive in limp mode?
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 06:00
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Congrats on making 2 pages and still no closer yet to a solution ! I know the feeling......I just got a call from an expert sparkie friend of a work mate here who has told me that all my wiring is A-OK, yet I still run rich.....
Knock sensor is sometimes a 'two trip' fault meaning the engine has to read the fault conditions twice (and be revved over 2500 rpm) before the ECU will throw a code, and yes, it should default to limp home mode, but its unlikely that you will notice it over the condition the car currently runs in.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 06:05
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I might try driving it without the knock sensors, see if it still does the massive retard. If it all just feels flat and lifeless then it could be the knock sensors retarding due to some interference and the like, can't see if being due to actual pinging.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 06:06
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Out of interest, do you know what the rail pressure on the 1GGTE is supposed to be?
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 06:13
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No I don't have a figure on that to hand, it might be in some documents I have at home.
While I remember, did you eventually confirm that your AFM and ECU are the right units for your engine ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 06:14
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Yeah, part numbers matched up with what they should have in EPC.
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Registered:
November 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:01
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I've tightened all my clamps again, it was too hard trying to find a leak without being able to make boost.
Idle is a little smoother, hopefully I've blocked some sort of leak.
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Location:
sunny coast, qld
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:07
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1jz fuel pressure is supposed to be 35-39psi at idle so I would think the 1g would be pretty similar.
good luck mate.
I have nothing to add as everyone has already said my ideas.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:11
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Cheers for that. Thanks for the luck as well, every bit counts  I've tightened all the clamps nice and tight, so we hopefully will have some luck.
Didn't get a chance to drive it, so will have to wait till tomorrow.
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:21
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Much likes its owner, your car is homosexual.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:24
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The massif dong finally cuts in, but once again his response means shit
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:29
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Tue, 03 May 2005 22:24 |
The massif dong finally cuts in, but once again his response means shit
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My response > teh XX performance.
I told you what i thought anyway.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Tue, 03 May 2005 12:32
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Whatever dude 
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 02:20
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Back on topic all I could find out on knock sensor testing was to literally knock the block near the sensor with say a large handled screwdriver to see if you can get the sensor to register a signal.
Any joy with your other testing (leaks etc) ?
You are 100% sure your static timing is set to 10 degrees BTDC and that the spark advance is working as well ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 02:38
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I tried to ensure all the IC piping was done up nice and tight, and it would appear so, as after I redid it, there was no change in the way it drove. Got a hunch there is something wrong with the AFM, I just need to make sure I'm measuring it correctly.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 02:43
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I measured my AFM last week, and got a constant 4.98/5V on one signal (Vc?), another started at about 2.3v and dropped to 0.5v as the AFM flapper door was slowly pushed open (Vs?) and the last one was for THA (Air temp).
I saw a table in a 1G-GTE BGB that listed similar voltage value ranges. Minein the second type AFM when voltage deceases as the flap opens, vice versa for the first type.
Do you have a two digit number hand stamped into the AFM housing alongside the air bypass screw 'shaft' ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 02:52
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I'll check for the figure shortly, it's in my bag. I think my air temp sensor is munted, it's not throwing a code, but i'm not getting a reading, so we shall see.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 03:00
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Nope, I've got no number stamped on mine.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:23
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Ok, I've been through most of it. I cocked up the bit with the AFM, which appears to be working correctly. Now, let me just see if I've forgotten anything. This is the list of things that i've checked/am going to check. Is there anything missing?
The input sensors:
AFM voltage - to check
Air Temp Sensor - appears to be working
TPS - to check
Water Temp Sensor - appears to be working
Knock Sensors - to check
Timing:
Checked base timing is set to 10 degrees BTDC with pins shorted
Checked advance is working when revved
Mechanical things:
Intercooler Piping re-positioned and clamped
Wastegate actuators not jammed and working
Replaced all vacuum hosing and clamped
Injectors were cleaned and flowed fine
Fuel Pump/Pressure - to be checked
I'm not sure it is 100% not leaking from IC piping. I couldn't find one when it was stationary. I reclamped them all as best I could, so if that's the problem, I won't find it till I put it on a dyno and can build boost.
Electrical:
It's not throwing any codes. All earths on ECU appear to be wired up correctly, as do all the battery/ignition wires. CEL does work as tested by disconnecting water temp sensor.
Have I missed anything that could cause the problem, that I can check before I take it to a dyno?
Cheers,
Nathan
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:33
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Intercooler itself?
ECU?
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:41
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JCMF,
Have you checked the continuity of the earth wires from the ECU and sensors to their earth point/s ?
Also the continuity of each wire from ECU to the sensor/actuator ?
Unscrew the ECU by its 4 screws and just see if you have a blackened circuit on the circuit boards ?
Some abstract ideas to keep you in the workshop for a while...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:42
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Mighty fine suggestion, I'll take the intercooler off tomorrow and take it to a rad shop to tell if it is still holding pressure.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:46
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| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 13:41 |
Have you checked the continuity of the earth wires from the ECU and sensors to their earth point/s ?
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Yep
| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 13:41 |
Also the continuity of each wire from ECU to the sensor/actuator ?
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Nope, but a short or closed circuit is definetly visible on CEL.
| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 13:41 |
Unscrew the ECU by its 4 screws and just see if you have a blackened circuit on the circuit boards ?
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Haven't done that yet, will leave that for when I've exhausted everything.
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 05:52
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The 1G-GTE ECU is made up of a few PCB's unlike older toyota ECU's which were simple single PCB design.
Be careful 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:00
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| HyDrA wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 13:52 |
The 1G-GTE ECU is made up of a few PCB's unlike older toyota ECU's which were simple single PCB design.
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Yep, already had a quick look at it before. Soooo much more complicated than my 1GEU one, but didn't really have a good look.
Hence me putting it off 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:10
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The plug gaps are recommended as 0.8mm for a 7M, yet the 1G is supposed to have the same plugs. I read on a site that they were supposed to have Denso K20PRU11, which would mean 1.1mm plug gap.
Could this cause the problem?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:32
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Do you still have that 1GEU?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:37
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Nope, gone to the big scrap metal place in the sky. Why?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:39
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I have a buyer. 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 06:47
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Haha! WTF?
GT, while you're here, are you able to impart any of your wisdom on my spark plug question?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 07:01
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Other than to say it's unlikely to be the cause of your power lack, no. With stockish turbos and only 7 psi, I doubt the standard ignition would struggle irrespective of plug gap.
Personally I'd just make sure it isn't lean. I presume both turbos are intact?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 07:07
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Hmm, ok. It can't hurt to bring them to factory specs though, so I'll give it a crack.
Both turbos seemed fine when I span them, no real shaft play. They should've been fairly new.
I wonder if my mechanic will lend me his AF meter...
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 11:10
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 17:07 |
I wonder if my mechanic will lend me his AF meter...
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If he does please call me and I will drive around there as fast as I can, I need my A/F's sniffed out as well......
BTW, I tested my 02 sensor tonight and it would start from 0.044v and then jump in increments to 0.310 volt before dropping to zero and repeating these readings. I thought that it was suppossed to cycle from 0.4v to 0.55v and back again, 8 times in 10 seconds on average.
Does this mean the 02 sensor is fubar, or have I measured it incorrectly ?
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Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 12:39
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this problem sound exactly the same as my friend experienzed, when the turbos where about to hit full load, the engine kinda slowed down.. got real slow and lazy.
this turned out to be a fuel problem, the fuel pump didnt give enough fuel, even tho it was supposed to be big enough and then some, that caused the engine to slow down and get really slow when he floored the pedal...it still run pretty good, but not nearly as good as it should, the engines also idled kinda funny, like it had some tiny missfirering problems in between.
if i were you i would try another fuel pump, make sure the fuel lines are big enough and then some, make sure the fuel pump get enough fuel from the tank at all times, also make sure the fuel regulator is correct.
many times both the fuel pump and regulator appears to be working perfect, but they can still be worn out or defect, and not give the preffered pressure.
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Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 12:52
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and about the knock sensor, if its not working like its supposed to.. it will slow ur engine down quite a bit, it will be like running without vacum to the ignition (for thoose who have tried that) , it will not give the impulses to the ignition about how to adjust itself from the fuelmixture thats in the cylinder, wich of course will lead to the engine "hanging" at a certain rpm, but then it normally catches up again at high revs, u may also notice a missfire when ur turbos hit full load and notice its hanging a bit before it gets by a certain rpm.
try make the engine pulling heavy, like a big uphill or something, and listen for the knocking from the engine/ignition, if you hear it ur knocksensor is defintly screwed. If u dont hear anythig, then you can assume its working, that is really all the knock sensor is doing.
u maybe tried all this, but since ur stil stuck i thought i just throw it in here anyway.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 13:05
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Mitch,
the readings you are getting seem to confirm your theories that it is running very rich. My 1J seemed to oscillate from about 0.3 to 0.6 volts.
Maybe your fuel pressure is too high?
Peter
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 13:12
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| Ta22lover wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 20:39 |
this problem sound exactly the same as my friend experienzed, when the turbos where about to hit full load, the engine kinda slowed down.. got real slow and lazy.
this turned out to be a fuel problem, the fuel pump didnt give enough fuel, even tho it was supposed to be big enough and then some, that caused the engine to slow down and get really slow when he floored the pedal...it still run pretty good, but not nearly as good as it should, the engines also idled kinda funny, like it had some tiny missfirering problems in between.
if i were you i would try another fuel pump, make sure the fuel lines are big enough and then some, make sure the fuel pump get enough fuel from the tank at all times, also make sure the fuel regulator is correct.
many times both the fuel pump and regulator appears to be working perfect, but they can still be worn out or defect, and not give the preffered pressure.
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Well, the fuel lines are definetly big enough. Other people have used this fuel pump, but I don't know the age and/or history of this. Shouldn't take long to swap though.  The symptoms you just described are exactly like mine, I was planning to get a fuel pressure gauge onto it, will still try to ASAP.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 13:14
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| ra23celica wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 19:10 |
If he does please call me and I will drive around there as fast as I can, I need my A/F's sniffed out as well......
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As much as I'd like to hope he would, I doubt he will. I think if it gets to the stage where I just can't work it out, we should go see Lumpy at Hyperdrive
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 14:07
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Fuel pressure is definetly something I'm going to look at. That said, I tested the AFM voltages.
Fully open voltage is within spec, 0.375V when range is 0-0.5V. Fully closed voltage is 3.95V which is lower than the 4.5V in the manual. Whether this is enough to cause a problem I don't know, but it's not orders of magnitude wrong so yeah...
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 14:43
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may have been covered before...
might be irrelavant, since its a new engine, but still...
have you checked your fuel filter?
Eldar.O.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Wed, 04 May 2005 23:07
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Nathan,
The AFM voltages are exactly what you found, just a range, and anywhere within that range is still within specification.
Fuel pressure should not be a problem, as the regulator will just get send the excess back to the tank. Is the small screw/bolt inside the top of the regulator sticking out or recessed down ? That's a quick visual check that its working/you have fuel pressure, when its out.
Peter,
Your readings for your 02 sensor of 0.3 to 0.6 are spot on and I am jealous as hell ! Mine are low, but they still cover a 0.3v range, so I suspect I did not test it in the right conditions.
With the O2 sensor disconnected the car drive the same, and when hooked up it does not throw any error code.....so I am not 100% convinced its the culprit. With no 02 sensor driveability will be reduced, but it should not be as bad as my car drives at present.
Have either of you adjusted a CAS ? Which bolts/screws do you loosen off/remove to turn it ? Or do you turn what is under the cover ?
Thanks.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:19
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| EldarO wrote on Wed, 04 May 2005 22:43 |
have you checked your fuel filter?
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Brand new.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:23
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| ra23celica wrote on Thu, 05 May 2005 07:07 |
Nathan,
The AFM voltages are exactly what you found, just a range, and anywhere within that range is still within specification.
Fuel pressure should not be a problem, as the regulator will just get send the excess back to the tank. Is the small screw/bolt inside the top of the regulator sticking out or recessed down ? That's a quick visual check that its working/you have fuel pressure, when its out.
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Yeah, they are a range. The 1G stuff I have is all in Japanese. By comparing it to the English ones for other engines is how I came up with the figures. It does fit the lower range for fully open, but they only gave a single value for fully closed, not a range. They give 4.5V as ideal, whereas mine is under 4V. Could be a reason my engine is nice and rich under idle. I'll try another AFM later on, but for the moment, it doesn't seem like the cause of the major problem.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:33
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I don't think that a little richness that might be caused by your AFM not reaching one end of its test scale would contribute to the size of the problem you are experiencing.
When you work out exactly what the drama is you can then, assuming all systems are operating OK, tune the existing AFM usings its air bypass screw to better 'match' the ECU, on a dyno with a CO sniffer up the rear.
Have you tested the voltages the O2 sensor is giving once the engine is warmed up ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:35
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Nope, I'll test the O2 sensor again. What's the test procedure for it?
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Registered:
November 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:45
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Yours is just rich isn't it? Not hiedeously crippled?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:45
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You won't be able to test the o2 sensor at idle Mitch.
The ecu ignores its output and defaults to the IDL map.
The throttle has to be open a bit.
Also, a stuffed o2 sensor will definately affect the way a car runs. I doubt it will to the extent that Franks is, but it will run pretty shit.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:50
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| CrUZsida wrote on Thu, 05 May 2005 08:45 |
Also, a stuffed o2 sensor will definately affect the way a car runs. I doubt it will to the extent that Franks is, but it will run pretty shit.
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It would only affect it on closed loop. Which in my case, isn't going to be under WOT.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 00:50
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Mine is both JCMF, rich and more crippled than Lang Handcock in the cot with Rose Porteous.....
CrUZsida, thanks for that, I was not sure if it could be tested at idle, my manual is in Japanese at well, and while the numbers are easy, the text kills me.
I will retest at higher revs and throw those numbers up....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 01:00
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You'd be surprised at how many times I've heard peoples car running shit, tried everything, and then the buy a new o2 as a last resort, and bam, back to perfect.
However, none of these guys had Franks problem, as they were all non-turbo motors.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 01:15
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I'm not discounting a stuffed 02 sensor, after I nearly set the car on fire from an overheated cat conv from uber rich running a few weeks ago, its just that I want to work out what caused the rich running in the first place.
I don't trust a second hand O2 sensor for my car, but Toyota can supply me one new ex-Japan, but I am looking at $300 bux for that....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 01:18
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Uber rich won't super heat a cat to the point of glowing.
It takes a spark to die for that to happen. (ie, 17% of the fuel in your case will be unburnt, and then catcing fire in the exhaust manifold).
Make sure you have good spark on all 6.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 01:24
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Well, I got enough unburnt fuel down there that as teh cat got hot to start its internal chemical reaction process, it glowed bright orange after a 5min drive and that glow extended for 1.5m down the exhaust pipe.
So, the cat came off, it was molten mesh inside, and a resonator has taken its place.
I tested the old plugs and got spark from all 6, and fitted and tested brand new ones 3 weeks ago and they all sparked fine.
I'm going to test my 02 sensor again, and hope that I don't need to find $300.....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 01:33
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Have you had the injectors cleaned and serviced?
Sounds like one of them is leaking big time.
I recently put a new fuel pump in, and it went from being stoich, to being stupidly rich (ie, I could see black smoke out the exhaust at idle, and big plumes of it under fuel acceleration), but I had no glowing cats or exhaust.
It was running about 15-20% rich.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 03:24
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No, I trusted the injectors on the low kms of the motor. It was those and my rear main bearing seal that I crossed by fingers on and left them untouched before I fitted the engine.
I am starting to regret this now.....
I have never had any black clouds out the exhaust just a huge strong smell of petrol in the gases, which is why I believed it to be running rich. Given no CEL codes in a moment of stupid desparation I adjusted the AFM screw and made it even richer and hence cooked the cat - and I think this gave the final knockout blow to the 02 sensor which had been putting up with this rich running for a while now..... It was after this I found some sensor earth worries and then fixed those, after testing knock sensors, AFM, ABV, VSV and ACV valves as well.
I tested my O2 sensor again, warm and just under 3000rpm and I got an almost steady reading of 0.31 v, no cycling and no 0.4v to 0.55v range......so it looks like I am in now the market for a new 02 sensor......
Would a dead 02 sensor (from prolonged rich running) just give a near steady voltage ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 03:28
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Get the injectors cleaned.
Its only $100, good insurance, and something you'll never have to do again.
You should be able to get a generic o2 sensor for about $120 too.
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Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Driven Project Decade...but it ain't all right...
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Thu, 05 May 2005 03:56
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Doing both of these will save me nearly $100 on just buying a genuine 02 sensor alone................
Where would you suggest I take the injectors to, and to buy a generic O2 sensor ?
Thanks.
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