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Location:
Perth
Registered:
December 2003
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Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:32
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Hi guys/girls
This has been bothering me for a while now can someone help clearify this for me. What is the real advantage of having a coilover suspension as oppose to a normal uprated springs and shocks?
From what I've heard and read so far about coilover suspension people seem to be very vague in their explaination as to why it is better. The word "Adjustability" seem to be used alot, but what exactly can you adjust? I'm not talking about proper race coilover here but just your average coilover conversion that people been putting in their ae86. I know that you can adjust the height and rebounds rate of some shock etc. but what else can you do that make coilover system so much better?
Any help to clarify this is much appreciated.
Thank you
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:45
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Hi,
I have a basic Coilovers, Tein Flex. Perfect for street use, and occasional track, but its too soft for serious track work. The main advantage, is Adjustability. I can adjust Damper (Softness or hardness) and Height, and it does not wreck the spring rate. Another cool thing I have, is the EDFC, an in cabin controller, to adjust the damper, so if Im driving through the mountains, i press of the bottom, im on a harder setting, or if im going to the shops, I can easily change it back to a soft setting. I have the option to adjust camber aswell, but never opted for it
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:51
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1. you can move the lower spring seat up and down to adjust ride height.
2. you can easily get new springs made up with different rates fairly cheaply, since the 'coil over spring' is simple for the spring makers to produce.
3. the springs are smaller diameter, so you can often move the strut tops in further to get more neg camber, without the top of the spring hitting the panel.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:56
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ajusting the ride height might not seem like such a big deal, but try getting the spring rate you want, at the exact ride height you want. ive never tried, but i know its definately not easy. also being able to corner weight your car (offset the ride heights side to side slightly to correct the balance) is an advanage, although admittedly not many people actually ever do this.
also the availability of a range of differant spring rates is a very big advantage.
added to that, whilst youre strut is having the coilover sleeve fitted, its a pretty good time to have the body shortened, to suit the insert you want and retain some wheel travel at the lowered height.
another advantage is that often, the springs can not be "captive" with the spring rates and ride heights alot of people want, but with a coilover, a decent portion of the spring will often be held in place by the strut body itself, which helps.
there. plus they look trick.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:59
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If you have McPherson struts (eg AE86) the only major advantage of coilovers if height adjustment. Damper adjustment was mentioned earlier but you can get adjustable dampers for anything, it's not specific to coilovers. Points 2 and 3 mentioned above are just a nice bonus. 
99% of people who buy coilovers don't really need them at all; they could acheive exactly the same result buying appropriate springs and dampers for the stock setup. But people have this vague notion that coilovers are "better", so off they go and buy them. 
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 02:18
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There was 2 reasons I got mine changed over to adjustable coilover.. To help get more negative camber, as in the RA28 the most I could get was around .5neg before the original spring hit the body.
Also I liked the idea of being able to buy off the shelf springs in different rates. Eg. I started with 400lbs/in and then changed to 275lbs/in and it was as easy as going to Noltec and picking up another set of springs. Didn't have to find someone who custom makes springs and can wind some to the rate/height I wanted to fit into the 28.
Cheers
Joel
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Location:
Carlingford, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 02:23
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i put mine in to get abigger tyre in the front
and the fact i had to change the spring seat anyway
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 03:22
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| Norbie wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 11:59 |
If you have McPherson struts (eg AE86) the only major advantage of coilovers if height adjustment. Damper adjustment was mentioned earlier but you can get adjustable dampers for anything, it's not specific to coilovers. Points 2 and 3 mentioned above are just a nice bonus.
99% of people who buy coilovers don't really need them at all; they could acheive exactly the same result buying appropriate springs and dampers for the stock setup. But people have this vague notion that coilovers are "better", so off they go and buy them.
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you directly contradict yourself. you mention there are other added bonuses, but the only advantage is height ajsutment?
99% of people who buy them dont need them? umm, its very often the case for toyota's especially, with a true mac strut, (not chapman) , where the stub axle is integeral, (meaning aftermarket manufacturers cant cheaply reproduce them cheaply) that you must have them made, rather than actually buy them. this alone makes it seem odd anyone would go to the trouble if they didnt really think they needed them?
do you really need a 2jz in an xa6x for a street car? stop worrying about what people need and jumping in on any thread you think might have an '86 enthusiast asking a q' and sprouting your wholly than though attitude.
i seem to remember you got your strut/coilover conversion pretty damn wrong
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 03:39
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i always figured the main advantage with coilovers was that you could use short stroke shocks?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 04:39
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| slydar wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 12:52 |
do you really need a 2jz in an xa6x for a street car? stop worrying about what people need and jumping in on any thread you think might have an '86 enthusiast asking a q' and sprouting your wholly than though attitude.
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Yes.
It is "Holier than thou" attitude, and basically he was right. The other reality is that MOST people don't know how to set it all up properly and take advantage and tune the suspension properly with the adjustability anyway.
That is why most people get ridiculously hard springs and call them streetable
I guess you also drive an AE86 Corolla ?
| slydar wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 12:52 |
i seem to remember you got your strut/coilover conversion pretty damn wrong
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Actually, he got it quite right. It handles bloody well. Have you seen it or ridden in it ? I have 
Norbie also had the sense to take it to an expert to overcome the obstacles that he encountered that he couldn't solve himself 
Most people don't even know how to calculate the proper spring rate anyway !!!
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 04:47
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Thanks for all the replys guys, so the real advantage is really about being able to easily make adjustment to the suspension and save money in the long run and how good the car will handle will depends largely on how your coilover is tune/adjust.
So there is not much point for me to get a coilover for my car, because I wouldn't know what to do with it anyway apart from the height adjustment. I think I will just stay with the uprated springs and shocks for now.
Thanks
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Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 05:21
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I converted my struts to coilover to allow for installation of a non-standard strut leg in my Corolla. The only other solution would have been a custom wound conical spring to mate the KE70 upper seat pattern and RT132 lower seat pattern with a 'hopefully' acceptable rate and ride height in between.
Far easier to just weld on a sleeve kit and swap off-the-shelf 65mm springs to get the rate/height/captivity I wanted.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 05:38
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If your whole suspension is shagged (i.e. springs, shocks, dust covers, bump stops) then coilovers would end up about the same price as replacing all that.
I bought the whiteline works kit for mine so I got Koni inserts and whiteline springs quite cheap as a result... otherwise I would have (and may still) chuck a set of coilovers in.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:00
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I dont know if its been mentioned yet but there is also the added benefit of being able to use a different strut in your car that has bigger brakes and then chopping it to the right height.
Most people mention that the benefit of coilovers is their height adjustability, but really this is just a (sometimes unwanted) byproduct of adjusting the spring preload.
Really the desired height shoud be decided upon and also the spring preload and then using the spring rate you want you should get the length of the spring/strut from that. Who here actually does that?
From personal experience, I had some coilovers in my sprinter and had them wound up as high as they would go when I first installed them. I found that the car would understeer quite a lot even though the front and rear spring rates were selected to give neutral handling. When I reduced the preload and consequently the height I found that the car handled a lot better but the wheels scrubbed. (I needed longer springs in the front which I was going to get but then the damn car got stolen)
This does show another advantage though, you can play with the settings to change the behaviour of the car.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:10
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forgive my ignorance, but if you adjust both sides at the front, then you are not changing preload at all, since a) the weight taken by the springs si still the same, b) the length of the springs stays the same, and c) how can you adjust preload on a macpherson strut due to b) ??
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
On your mum!
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:32
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| oldcorollas wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 18:10 |
forgive my ignorance, but if you adjust both sides at the front, then you are not changing preload at all, since a) the weight taken by the springs si still the same, b) the length of the springs stays the same, and c) how can you adjust preload on a macpherson strut due to b) ??
Cya, Stewart
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Maybe by setting the sleeve far enough up the strut and winding the bases up very tight? Your car will have lots of positive camber and look like it is on a jack, but pre-load will be increased!.. 
I will be going to a coilover set up for it's height adjustment and possible (although not large) weight saving, with a firm view to narrowing the track and softening the front spring rate (it's a drag thing not a drift thing).
I will aim to achieve those targets around a different set of struts/hubs and brakes than those that I currently have installed.
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 09:35
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| oldcorollas wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 17:40 |
forgive my ignorance, but if you adjust both sides at the front, then you are not changing preload at all, since a) the weight taken by the springs si still the same, b) the length of the springs stays the same, and c) how can you adjust preload on a macpherson strut due to b) ??
Cya, Stewart
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AFAIK you are correct, you cant.
Only way to set preload is to have an adjustable stroke shock or something like a belt to limit travel.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Thu, 12 May 2005 23:57
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| oldcorollas wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 18:10 |
forgive my ignorance, but if you adjust both sides at the front, then you are not changing preload at all, since a) the weight taken by the springs si still the same, b) the length of the springs stays the same, and c) how can you adjust preload on a macpherson strut due to b) ??
Cya, Stewart
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As far as I understand (its a complicated subject so I am willing to be corrected!), the preload is the force exerted on the spring by compressing it in the strut between the spring perch and the strut top. When the spring is just loose there is zero preload, when you wind it up a bit there is preload. The preload force will be equal the the amount compression of the spring multiplied by the spring rate.
If this force is greater than the corner weight of the car the suspension will not deflect when on the ground, it will only start to deflect once the bump force (be it a cornering force or whatever) is greater than the preload. This will affect the transients of the vehicle in cornering particularly as the strut is really acting like a solid member until a certain force is applied.
| Quote: |
Only way to set preload is to have an adjustable stroke shock or something like a belt to limit travel.
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A belt will move limit of travel of the top of the shock, yes? In relation to the spring perch? This is essentially what moving the spring perch up closer to the top of the shock will do also.
No matter what spring rate you get, if you get a long enough spring and compress it into the strut to a really large force, you can have solid suspension (forgetting at the moment the effects of coil binding etc). I'm not saying that this would be good or bad, just that the effect of pre-loading does exist and can be used in this sort of set up.
[Updated on: Thu, 12 May 2005 23:58]
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Fri, 13 May 2005 06:59
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| RobertoX wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 09:27 |
As far as I understand (its a complicated subject so I am willing to be corrected!), the preload is the force exerted on the spring by compressing it in the strut between the spring perch and the strut top. When the spring is just loose there is zero preload, when you wind it up a bit there is preload.
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Right.
But you are forgetting that as you wind up the lower spring perch, the car will raise along with it by the same amount.
Hence the distance between the lower spring perch and the top perch stays the same which means preload satys the same (so preload will = the corner weight of the car).
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Fri, 13 May 2005 07:19
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MWP is on the money. Winding up the spring platform WILL NOT change the "preload" unless the shock is at max entension already and stopping the strut extending any further (unlikely and very bad)
I think most people go coilovers because they sound and look cool. True, you can wind the height up and down and can change your spring rates more easily, but how many people do?
However, do whatever takes your fancy, you can get your car handling well either way if you know what you're doing.
Hen
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Fri, 13 May 2005 08:17
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| Quote: |
Winding up the spring platform WILL NOT change the "preload" unless the shock is at max entension already and stopping the strut extending any further (unlikely and very bad)
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This is exactly what I am talking about but I really dont think it is that unlikely...
actually, lets put some numbers to this...
say 1000kg car 51/49 weight distribution thats 255kg on each of the front corners.
Then a spring rate of 6kg/mm (a lot of people run more!)
this gives 44.3 mm of displacement of the spring before the force exerted on the spring is equal to the corner force of the car. If you wind it up any more the spring wont deflect under the weight of the car, you would need to add more load. the shocks will be at full extension!
45mm is not a lot, I know that my coilover sleves were longer than 5cm...
And when they were wound up high the displacement was much more than this.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Fri, 13 May 2005 14:39
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| RobertoX wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 18:17 |
| Quote: |
Winding up the spring platform WILL NOT change the "preload" unless the shock is at max entension already and stopping the strut extending any further (unlikely and very bad)
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This is exactly what I am talking about but I really dont think it is that unlikely...
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OK, for this to happen (increase the "preload") you'd need to have your car set up so that at normal ride height your shocks are fully extended. Basically so your car looks the same if its sitting on the ground or if you have it jacked up.
I'll settle it once and for all, it's not going to happen, if it did happen it'd handle like shit and look like a tractor. Sort of like a stock sprinter.
Hen
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 02:25
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lol, fine... but it does depend on the lenght of the strut as to whether it will look like a tractor or not (personally mine was pretty low still) and as for "its not going to happen", well it did to me until I fixed it, and possibly other people have their cars set up like this. And yes, it did handle like shit like I said before.
Heh, maybe there should be a new thread on how not to set up suspension 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 05:11
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i got coilovers becuase it makes me cooler than anyone else... 
that and the fact they are height adjustable, more agressive dampers (which can be done with normal struts and shocks i might add), they were deal of the century, they are thinner than conventional struts so i can fit wider wheels/tyres on the front and rear and becuase they are shiny with a wider choice of spring rates
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 06:16
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| RobertoX wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 12:25 |
lol, fine... but it does depend on the lenght of the strut as to whether it will look like a tractor or not (personally mine was pretty low still) and as for "its not going to happen", well it did to me until I fixed it, and possibly other people have their cars set up like this. And yes, it did handle like shit like I said before.
Heh, maybe there should be a new thread on how not to set up suspension
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maybe there should  . a fully extended shock on ANY suspension system at ride height is really really etc bad news..
if that has happened, then by winding up the spring platform you are not "increasing preload", you are "furthering a mistake that has already been made"
you really shouldn't say things like "increasing preload" when you know it is untrue and will just mislead all the noob's.
under normal circumstances where someone has not fucked up their measurements/mods it will NOT happen, nor is it desirable (as you found out)
aaaanyway
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Location:
qld
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 07:01
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"It looks pretty good to me, but I guess you'd know better."
at a guess, about 3 degrees of positive camber from your first fotos is not getting it right. im not saying you didnt rectify it, and maybe i should have been more specific and said "didnt get it right the first time" but anyway. ill give you credit for being brave enough to post up the fotos.
and as far as the 2jz.. you need it for what? justify it? there is no real or even lawful reason to have one as far as im concerned. im sure any reason you can give could just as easily be applied to the reasoning for some one wanting coilovers..
yes, btw, i do drive a sprinter.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 11:34
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| slydar wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 17:01 |
at a guess, about 3 degrees of positive camber from your first fotos is not getting it right.
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The camber problem was a result of putting Chaser struts in a Supra chassis, and was entirely expected. This had nothing whatsoever to do with coilovers. This may come as a shock to you, but when you try something outside the norm it doesn't always work out exactly how you want it to on the first try. In fact, it never does.
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and as far as the 2jz.. you need it for what? justify it? there is no real or even lawful reason to have one as far as im concerned.
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Sorry, I thought this was the ToyMods forums. I must have wandered into the "self-righteous corolla drivers with a chip on their shoulder" forums by mistake.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:22
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| Norbie wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 21:34 |
Sorry, I thought this was the ToyMods forums. I must have wandered into the "self-righteous corolla drivers with a chip on their shoulder" forums by mistake.
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ROTLMAO! 
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sat, 14 May 2005 22:18
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| Stefan wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 01:22 |
| Norbie wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 21:34 |
Sorry, I thought this was the ToyMods forums. I must have wandered into the "self-righteous corolla drivers with a chip on their shoulder" forums by mistake.
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ROTLMAO!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Sun, 15 May 2005 03:18
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| Quote: |
maybe there should . a fully extended shock on ANY suspension system at ride height is really really etc bad news..
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I'm not going to keep harping on about this but it is interesting to think about what will happen to a corner with decreased load on it (like an inside wheel in cornering) and how this will affect the tyre... and what I am trying to describe will probably happen more (ie droop maxed out etc).
I guess the actual point of what I'm saying is that you can't adjust the height without inadvertently adjusting the "home" position of the shock in these sorts of setups...
| Quote: |
if that has happened, then by winding up the spring platform you are not "increasing preload", you are "furthering a mistake that has already been made"
you really shouldn't say things like "increasing preload" when you know it is untrue and will just mislead all the noob's.
under normal circumstances where someone has not fucked up their measurements/mods it will NOT happen, nor is it desirable (as you found out)
aaaanyway
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I'll just say that I didn't do the measurements, if I did they would have been right the first time. They were relatively cheap at the time though
but yeah.... aaaanyway
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Location:
3171
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Mon, 16 May 2005 09:26
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a question i have to add to this sorry for high jacking is short stroke ??? can you make any struts into these or only some types and so on ??? and i was told that struts like koni and kyb and so on can only surport so much like cant get rates like 12kg front 10rear so on this true ??
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Mon, 16 May 2005 09:47
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| RobertoX wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 13:18 |
I'm not going to keep harping on about this
I guess the actual point of what I'm saying is that you can't adjust the height without inadvertently adjusting the "home" position of the shock in these sorts of setups...
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ahh i see what you are harping on about
yes the positioning of the short stroke shock within the strut, RELATIVE to the position of the new ride height, is pf UTMOST IMPORTANCE, and is why most ppl fuckup...
it's all well and good to have a short stroke shock, but most ppl don't realise this will limit their suspension movement to about 60mm bump and 40mm droop... which is basically 3/5ths of fuckall in a road car.
if you then sayy, position the shock 30mm too low, you suddenly have 30mm bump.. and that's baaaad mmkay..
yes it will pick up the inside tyre easier, but thats kinda what it does...
| Quote: |
a question i have to add to this sorry for high jacking is short stroke ??? can you make any struts into these or only some types and so on ??? and i was told that struts like koni and kyb and so on can only surport so much like cant get rates like 12kg front 10rear so on this true ??
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short stroke shock= the shock has a shorter stroke than normal.
strut has little to do with the shocks stroke, except for where you position the shock inside the strut tube.
wtf? why not just get a 40kg spring instead and do away with the shock.
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Coilover suspension why??
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Tue, 17 May 2005 11:29
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I just gots mine cause they looked rewl purdy, dont ya think cleatus?
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