Author | Topic |
Location: gold coast
Registered: December 2004
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 10:30
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Why rivet when you can weld which would give 200% more structural support?
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I supported Toymods
Location: melbourne
Registered: June 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 10:44
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there is no such thing as seam riveting, you are just making things up.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 10:48
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I've seen people put rivets in the center of spot welds. It looks bling but serves no purpose
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I supported Toymods
Location: melbourne
Registered: June 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 10:59
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except to weaken the joint?
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Location: Melbourne
Registered: September 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 11:19
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Its strange - But the Japanese enthusiasts do rivet the seams of cars. Have seen this on some AE86 imports. Guess its cheaper to do but a lot of work!
Shall try to put up some pics soon.
Guess you would rivet the obvious places that have a fair bit of flex. Wouldnt bother doing it for road though.
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Location: Adelaide, SA
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 11:39
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I would think it could only POTENTIALLY benefit in places that aren't welded, or the welds are weak from fatigue?
Still, it'd be better to just break out a welder.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 13:49
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sounds like a seriously bad idea to me, it wouldnt be the first time the japs have had a trend that is completely useless and stupid.
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Location: tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered: May 2002
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Location: Perth, WA
Registered: December 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 15:33
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putting a rivet in the center of a spot weld will increase the joints resistance to breaking against shearing forces i.e. the two plates/surfaces sliding against each other.
plus, it looks bling.
these are the only purposes this would serve.... IMO.
Eldar.O.
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Location: Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered: May 2002
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 21:48
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M.W.P. wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 03:20 |
EldarO wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 01:03 | putting a rivet in the center of a spot weld will increase the joints resistance to breaking against shearing forces i.e. the two plates/surfaces sliding against each other.
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I doubt that. Rivets are not that strong.
At a guess i think you would loose about 3/4 of the strength of the spot weld by drilling a hole in it and placing a rivet.
Bad idea.
Riveting between spot welds is a little more sane, but would still give crap all strength increase.
There is a reason why rally/track cars are seam welded... not rivited.
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Rally/track cars should not get seam welded at all. If you want do do a cheap job you stitch weld. If you want to do the job correctly, you fit a full cage.
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Banned user
Location: Liverpool NSW
Registered: March 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 22:15
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seam riveting is good when you damage up your car and you have to straigtn it, just knock the rivets out with a chisel. But welding stiffenes the car,
Later on ill be doing this to, miging between spot welds.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Tue, 10 May 2005 23:45
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Cool1 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 07:48 |
Rally/track cars should not get seam welded at all. If you want do do a cheap job you stitch weld. If you want to do the job correctly, you fit a full cage.
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I would be seriously iffy about just fitting a full cage without stitch welding. It is pretty likely that once you have a full cage that the minor amounts of flex in the car will break the stock spot welds holding the car together. Indeed ive seen a few cracks in the rear half of my car with the half cage but no stitch welding.
Needless to say ill be stitch welding quite soon now.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:08
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takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 09:45 |
Cool1 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 07:48 |
Rally/track cars should not get seam welded at all. If you want do do a cheap job you stitch weld. If you want to do the job correctly, you fit a full cage.
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I would be seriously iffy about just fitting a full cage without stitch welding. It is pretty likely that once you have a full cage that the minor amounts of flex in the car will break the stock spot welds holding the car together. Indeed ive seen a few cracks in the rear half of my car with the half cage but no stitch welding.
Needless to say ill be stitch welding quite soon now.
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If you get a decent full cage fitted there will not be any stress loading on the body at all.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:14
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Actually what I said wasnt fully correct. You still will have stress loading on the body, but not in any locations that will hurt any spot welds.
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Location: Madrid - Spain
Registered: August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:35
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So many opinions and so little facts.
Firstly rivets can be stronger than welds but not always. This will vary with things like hole preparation, edge distance, type of rivet etc.
The topic of drilling through spotwelds is interesting though. You can drill through them, install a rivet and have a strong joint given the above considerations. Unfortunately around the spot weld is a heat effected region where the metal has been tempered and is possibly a little more brittle than the nominal metal. Added to this is the fact that there could be some porosity in the weld, making it more brittle. putting a hole in it adds a little more stress concentration and you hace a likely crack initiation site. This stress concentration also increases depending on the type of rivet used and the condition of the hole.
Now I know that I haven't really helped but my opinion is that unless you can install good quality rivets (definitly not pop rivets) into a reamed hole, you are better off welding steel.
Oh and if you think that rivets will be cheaper than welding, try pricing some structural rivets and the equipment needed to install them.
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Location: brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Location: Madrid - Spain
Registered: August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:45
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Interesting you mentioned the solder/crimp argument cos in aviation, the preference is to crimp. The reasoning is that a lot of the cable used is aluminium core due to the weight of copper. Soldering the cable puts a hard spot in it and it ends up breaking easily. Hence they use crimps. They don't however buy the cheap nasty K-mart stuff though. Particularly on the smaller cables, the do tensile tests and the crimped joints are stronger than the cable.
Just though I would throw that in.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:48
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Considering all the facts, fitting a decent full cage would probably work out not much more costly then stich welding aswell.
A cage is roughly worth 3k.
But then how much labour time would be involved in stripping paint and seam sealer from the areas you want to weld. Then the labour time welding the areas and then more labour to go over the weld with some rust inhibitor?
And thats after you get the car all jacked up and in a position where there is no stress on the body in the first place.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 00:50
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gold28 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 10:45 | Interesting you mentioned the solder/crimp argument cos in aviation, the preference is to crimp. The reasoning is that a lot of the cable used is aluminium core due to the weight of copper. Soldering the cable puts a hard spot in it and it ends up breaking easily. Hence they use crimps. They don't however buy the cheap nasty K-mart stuff though. Particularly on the smaller cables, the do tensile tests and the crimped joints are stronger than the cable.
Just though I would throw that in.
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Thats even more interesting. When I do my contracting for the military, they prefer crimp and then solder on all equipment when possible.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 01:46
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Well my cage is certainly structurally sound. I could envision a little bit of issue with my method of chipping out the deadening.
Either way though, if you are going to the effort of installing a full cage, I daresay that you will also be chipping out the deadening. From there it is only a simple step to stitch weld the car.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 02:00
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There should be no deadening on any areas where a cage would be afixed.
And when I take above about cages, i'm talking about 19 point CAMS/ANDRA approved cages! Not the cheap and nasty 6 point rubbish things.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 02:14
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Duh. Just because i own a sprinter doesnt make me a dumbarse.
A fully welded in cage shouldnt theoretically cause structural stress, rather it should reduce it. However on a 21yo chassis which is subjected to the stresses and pressures of racing, cracks will undoubtably develop in the spot welding.
My arguement is based upon the fact that all the prep work will have already been completed in order to install the cage, the stitch welding should be done as a matter of course.
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Location: Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 02:18
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*shakes head*
What on earth are some of you guys on?
Riveting is a BAD idea. Seam welding in the form of stitching is very good to do for any car, especially one that is used in competition. Having a roll cage of not, it's still a good thing. Saying that a cage takes all the load is a huge generalisation indeed! The only cage that I know of that'll do that is one that goes through the firewall and to the suspension points, so basically the car is a spaceframe chassis with metalwork to give it shape. There's not a lot of cages like that.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 02:25
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Bill Sherwood wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 12:18 | The only cage that I know of that'll do that is one that goes through the firewall and to the suspension points, so basically the car is a spaceframe chassis with metalwork to give it shape. There's not a lot of cages like that.
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This in my mine is the only real cage there is. This is exactly what I'm talking about.
With the cages we fit it would be possible for you to remove the doors, roof, and all other paneling and the ca will be still fully structural.
If you get a cage fitted and you still need to do stitch welding it just proves the cage is not doing what it is designed to do.
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Registered: June 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 02:32
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ok i'll be blunt.
drilling a hole in a metal makes it a shitload weaker. it doesn't matter what you put there afterwards, you've taken that sections' strength and thrown it right out of the window. that's why car manufacturers spot weld, instead of bolting or riveting the shit together.
if you want to stiffen it up, you can either add more spot welds, stitch weld it (it's the most foolproof way) or seamweld. regardless of what you do, do some calculations first, please. welding heats up the metal a LOT and that can alone weaken it a great deal. (unless you TIG it...)
drilling a hole out, and riveting it, will do jackshit. honestly.
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Location: Rosanna, Melb
Registered: June 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 03:46
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I think most are a little mixed up on the rivetting idea (or I am). The technique I have seen is to take a length of chassis seam which is spot welded and drill a hole halfway between the spot welds and rivet there. So the spotwelds remain untouched and just a bunch of rivets are added in between where the two sheets of metal were not previously connected.
It may still be a waste of time, but I think would be MUCH better than drilling out the spotwelds.
Hen
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Location: brisbane
Registered: October 2004
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 06:20
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gold28 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 10:35 | Unfortunately around the spot weld is a heat effected region where the metal has been tempered and is possibly a little more brittle than the nominal metal. Added to this is the fact that there could be some porosity in the weld, making it more brittle. putting a hole in it adds a little more stress concentration and you hace a likely crack initiation site. This stress concentration also increases depending on the type of rivet used and the condition of the hole.
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the center of the spot weld will not contribute a huge amount to the weld strength since it is a small area compared to the rest of it.. it does depend on the size of the hole tho (as a proportion of weld area).
spot welding when car is made is usually very good... since the metal is clean.. much cleaner than you will ever get now (maybe a full dip would work but then you lose all rustproofing)
oh and the HAZ is more likely 'annealed' rather than 'tempered' ... then again, if the 'shit content' of the metal is high than you could get some brittle phases forming.. not likely to be carbide/cementite tho due to the low carbon content of the steel...
aaanyway... just fit a full tube chassis
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 06:22
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takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 12:14 | Duh. Just because i own a sprinter doesnt make me a dumbarse.
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LOL, Quote of the week i think
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Location: gold coast
Registered: December 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:07
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Wow guys we've gotten way off track and a little emotional about this topic, i don't know were all this talk of roll cages came from.
anyway the only reason i was thinking of doing this is because i saw a few pictures of Hibino Tetsuya and Ken Satoh from D1 with rivets along joins in there cars and upon closer inspection it seems they have dodged the welds and only riveted around them. check it out in issue 5 of drift battle magazine.
Thats why i assumed it was done to increase chassis stiffness. but thanks for all your opinions. If anyone is a welder or engineer or something were it is there job to know about this stuff could you please give me a definitive answer.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:15
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ae86 slide wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 18:07 | If anyone is a welder or engineer or something were it is there job to know about this stuff could you please give me a definitive answer.
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I can give you a phone number of an engineer that will tell you exactly what I have posted.
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:20
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well considering rivets hold airplanes and stuff together i dont rekon it could hurt for chassis strengthening, at least ive done it to my car.....now i rekon every one is confusing the rivets to be a replacement for spot welding it...ie where the panels are spot welded together you drill just through the first top panel and then fill it up with weld.....very hard to do with out bending your chassis as you are taking all the sucuring mounts out, so you would need a chassis rack to get it done properly, so then theres me(and alot of other japanese fellas) we dont have chassis racks so reinforce it as per....
now if you look the standard factory spot welds that hold the chassis together remain....so you arnt at all effecting the original strength, just adding to it.......make sense? i only drilled one hole at a time and it seems to have worked out pretty good.......and ive seen lots of jap 86's that have had this done.....
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:42
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Okay, remind me never to come near your car.
As for the cages issue, the entire point of the cage is to absorb structural impact in case of an accident. Not to further brace the car. Infact some classes even rule out bracing via the cage, notably IPRA.
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:55
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Nah, would have helped more if i was thinking rather than just typing.
I was trying to say that the cage's purpose is to protect the occupants rather than stiffening the car. Anyway this is all completely off topic. Im too occupied with other things to post properly.
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 09:25
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takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 18:12 | Okay, remind me never to come near your car.
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and can you give me a reason why?
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: January 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 09:28
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who r u ninja? what colour 86 u got?
do u know any of the other sa 86 crew?
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I supported Toymods Banned User
Location: Brisbane
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 09:28
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ninja_86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 19:25 |
takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 18:12 | Okay, remind me never to come near your car.
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and can you give me a reason why?
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Dont you remember the scene in fast and furious where the rivets started poping out of the floor pan???
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 09:39
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chances are you prolly never have seen my 86....and no dont really know any of the 86 crew from sa....
love the fast and furious joke!
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Location: Melbourne
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 10:03
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I think you and missing the point of avation rivets , most have a time or life which after that they are not holding together panels at there full strength . They are inspected and replaced by qualified person , how you inspect a rivet has got me stuff but thats what happens .
How much do you really think that you need or will be able to tell any difference after welding , riveting , whatever you use . You would have to have the rest of the car set up so well to tell any change , its a old chassis yes . But how much stress are you really going to put it though ? is it going to spend thousands of k's on the track , is it really worth the time ?
I love seeing these picture of people impressions where they think the ae shells have areas which need reinforcing . Most of the worst stressed and sometimes cracked ae i have seen come from japan , most have spring rates which you would have to have no brains left due to the constant jarring been worst that a boxing match . The areas they come apart are at the panel joints , not the factory spot welded area and sealed areas { the factory welds must be ok } , and i have never seen one cracking around the strut towers . Why go to all the hassle there when you are going to be running a strut bar to dissipate the stress to the other tower and the firewall anyway .
As far as cages , there only the ex group a car here that has a cage that reinforces the body to become one stress member . All the bolt in and home made jobs look so overbuilt that there weight would be a huge factor if you where to try to competitively race one of those cars . Once again if the cage doesn't reinforce the suspension points and is correctly tied the the shell then its really just for the safety of the passengers , not to create a stiffer body .
Heres a good link to start you with :
http://www.rollcages.com.au/index.htm
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 10:10
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ninja_86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 19:39 |
love the fast and furious joke!
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Its not a joke.
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 10:24
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takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 19:40 |
ninja_86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 19:39 |
love the fast and furious joke!
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Its not a joke.
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so you rekon my car is gonna fall apart?
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 10:29
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improvedae86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 19:33 | I think you and missing the point of avation rivets , most have a time or life which after that they are not holding together panels at there full strength . They are inspected and replaced by qualified person , how you inspect a rivet has got me stuff but thats what happens .
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i think your missing my point as well, i know i havent used aircraft grade rivets, and the rivets i have used are not holding together panels by themselves, the standard factory spot welds remained i have only reinforced the seams......
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Location: Melbourne
Registered: June 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 11:31
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improvedae86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03 |
I love seeing these picture of people impressions where they think the ae shells have areas which need reinforcing . Most of the worst stressed and sometimes cracked ae i have seen come from japan , most have spring rates which you would have to have no brains left due to the constant jarring been worst that a boxing match . The areas they come apart are at the panel joints , not the factory spot welded area and sealed areas { the factory welds must be ok } , and i have never seen one cracking around the strut towers . Why go to all the hassle there when you are going to be running a strut bar to dissipate the stress to the other tower and the firewall anyway .
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lol thats cause its jdm tight yo... its gotta be good cause the japs do it. It's sorta the same with removing sound deading... i find it hard to believe that anyone would notice the 15kg weight u remove on a 86 thats not got a insane suspension setup. I agree with you a lot in the fact you wouldn't notice any benefit in such a overkill setup unless ur car is doing serious hours on the track and is pushing a high HP level that ur worried about stress on ur chassis... there would be about 5% of people on this forum who would fall into such a category. Same goes for removing sound deadening. You would benefit more from replacing ur bushes or buying a strut brace.
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Registered: June 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 12:44
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fkn alright i'll be blunt again
planes arent held together by rivets. their nonstructural panels are held in place by rivets. bit of a difference.
that rivetted up strut tower area would be completely shagged by doing that.
what they've basically done is increase stress concentrations where there wouldn't normally be any. it weakens the whole surrounding area, even though the original welds are intact. it'd make sense if you knew it was going to fail and you wanted it to fail in a particular spot. for example, putting a magnesium rod in your mild steel hot water boiler so it rusts there and not on the boiler
fact of the matter is, it's a waste of time.
yes, you can rivet your panels on if you want. no, your car wont do 450kmh, so yes, you can probably make do with the standard OE panel screws.
weld it if you have to.
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 21:47
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opiate wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 22:14 |
that rivetted up strut tower area would be completely shagged by doing that.
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so is anyone going to give some actually facts on why they think my car is going to fall apart? and how it doesnt acctually reinforce it??????
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Location: Lost in the K hole
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 21:58
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holes = BAD
figure the rest of from there. end of story
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Location: Melbourne
Registered: January 2003
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Location: Lost in the K hole
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Wed, 11 May 2005 23:43
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Location: Victoria
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 00:12
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I think your missing the point, those rivets are only usefull in holding cheap sheds together (and even then they are highly suspect) Ive seen them pull through sheet metal with little force.
And even if they did strengthen the join, think about ur front end come crash time.. your front end is now full of speed holes, which weaken the structual integrity of the sheet metal itself, now more likely to crumple easier
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Location: c'town, NSW
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 00:52
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 00:54
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rob_RA40 wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 10:52 | *insert mechanic kittah here*
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Hahahaha. I almost wet my pants.
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Location: Melbourne
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 00:55
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Now thats some funny shit there Rob
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I supported Toymods
Location: Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered: September 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 01:00
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haha rob, always learn from the kitteh!!
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: January 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 02:14
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roflmao!! go the mechanic kitteh!
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Registered: August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 03:04
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improvedae86 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 20:03 | I think you and missing the point of avation rivets , most have a time or life which after that they are not holding together panels at there full strength . They are inspected and replaced by qualified person , how you inspect a rivet has got me stuff but thats what happens .
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caught up with a friend who is an airframe engineer, one weekend a couple of months ago, while he was at work replacing composite panels in a helicopter... looked to me like a big part of testing a rivet was tapping it with the blunt end of a screwdriver?!!
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Registered: June 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 11:09
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yeah.
by drilling a hole out for the rivet, you're taking away metal that could be resisting shear or tensile forces.
as in, the forces are they diverted to the metal that's still left.
hence it's weaker. makes sense eh?
welding "adds" metal. riveting takes it away.
assuming the UTS's are the same, the more metal, the better.
ok?
ps the kittie knows.
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Location: ADL
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 23:24
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so i take it every one here is speculating and no one has acctually tried it....so i guess it is kinda like telling someone how to do an engine conversion that you have never done
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