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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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 Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 08:53
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Hey.
I'm doing KE30/4AGE conversion.
Im still collecting parts to start the conversion.
One part i still need is an engine!
My plan is, to put a stock motor in at first, to sort out any problems that will inevitably pop up, and get the car set up properly, then dial some boost into the equasion...
i have considered..AE82 spec 4AGE, because they are cheap and easy to get.
4AGZE, because they are stronger(?) and are superchrged, so i'll have that power to play with before i get a turbo.
20V silvertop, cheaper than a GZE, easier to get,and are later model, so maybe less kays,less likley to have been thrashed.
i have heard good and bad things about all of these engines, so im unsure what option to take, id like to get a GZE, but i think its a bit of a waste, because i wont need the supercharger that i'll be paying for, but will the other engines stand up to boost that i'll add later?
thanks for the help.
chris.
[Updated on: Wed, 11 May 2005 11:18]
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 11:28
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bump
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 11:42
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any of these engines would be a great conversion and the 20v/16v n/a engines can take a small hit of boost if a little thought is put into the application. The disireability of a 4agze is not its standard power output or its supercharger but the potential of the motor once you slap a decent turbo on the side. The 4agze is cheaper to make faster and its not unheard of them making 200rwkw on standard internals.
Food for thought i think
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 12:03
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Or you could do what im planning which is getting a smallport bottom end, fitting gze pistons and whacking on a bigport head.
That way you get no useless supercharger and you can use the intake manifold from the bigport for the turbo.
I've heard different things about the cranks/rods in the different gen 4ages.
Some say the cranks/rods are identical, some say the 20v have the thinnest rods and gze rods are the thickest.
20v cranks are said to have different counterweights on the crank as well.
Eddie.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 12:48
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at least if you get a complete 4agze you have an engine ready for boost, you have a ECU ready for boost that will also work with a turbo etc.
then once your ready to put your turbo gear on, you can pull off and sell the s/c stuff.
what do you want though? a mega powerfull engine or just a nice simple package with decent and realistic hp output?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 11 May 2005 13:19
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turbo ALL OF THEM!! 
seriously though.... i would stick with a smallport motor. In my opinion these are the BEST all round performance 4age, and have the capability of easily being modified for a variety of power targets with easy to find and cheap parts.....
For example - a cheap turbo conversion on a STOCK 100kW (smallport) 4age i did held up FINE to 11psi and some less than perfect tuning, giving me a tidy 116kW at the wheels.
If you want more, just add smallport 4agze pistons ($400 from toyota) and you have a 4agze (seriously, thats the ONLY difference, besides things hanging off the sides of the engines)
If you STILL want more... then there is a whole WORLD of aftermarket goodies for the humble 16V 4age.
Stuff the 20v - i dont like them
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Location:
tas
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 06:11
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Does the GZE have oil squirters? like the 7mgte or not?
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 06:30
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the later gze's do but the earlier ones like the aw11 afm ones dont aparantly feral should be able to confirm this
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Location:
tas
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 06:37
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Interesting. I personlly wouldn't turbo an engine without oil squirters. In my view a turbo engine needs these if it's to live a reasonable long life. I'm also skeptical about turboing a 20v for that very reason, altho i've heard the 20v's respond well to turboing.
About to embark on an engine conversion for my cousin's AW11, still unsure on a few things such as if the standard gearbox that came out on the 86kw 4age's in the aw11, is upto the task of taking the extra power from a GZE/20v
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Location:
northern beaches
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:05
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the smallport 4age has oil squirters as do later versions of GZE.
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:11
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...So let me get this straight...
small port is the 100kw, AE92 etc engine?
big port is the AE82 spec one?
and the pistons are the main difference between Small port bottom ends and GZE bottom ends?
On Bill Sherwoods website,
http://www.billzilla.org/ 4agmods.htm
it basically says that a smallport head makes more power in stock form, but doesn't reach the same upper limit as the bigport one, so i suppose 100kw bottom end, big port head, and gze pistons, would be the best combo?
The computer wont matter that much because I'll more than likely get an aftermarket management system before putting the turbo on, but i still want a bit of power to begin with, to have some fun with.(the turbo will be at least a year away but i want to make the right engine choice now, so i don't have to get another one!)
Thanks for everyones help!
[Updated on: Thu, 12 May 2005 08:14]
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 08:55
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| dingaling wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 16:37 |
Interesting. I personlly wouldn't turbo an engine without oil squirters. In my view a turbo engine needs these if it's to live a reasonable long life. I'm also skeptical about turboing a 20v for that very reason, altho i've heard the 20v's respond well to turboing.
About to embark on an engine conversion for my cousin's AW11, still unsure on a few things such as if the standard gearbox that came out on the 86kw 4age's in the aw11, is upto the task of taking the extra power from a GZE/20v
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the aw11 4agze dosent need oil squirtes to last the distance it will happily take 200rwkw on standard internals it has been done before they are pretty damn strong engines.
The bigport versions of the gze should flow better than the smallport motors at higher boost levels.
All the n/a drift cars i saw at the D1 Gran Prix all had big port heads as opposed to 20v or smallport heads.
Dont get carried away with oil squirters non oil squiters all the 4ag engines will respond well to turbocharging with or without them and last well aslong as the ecu is tuned well enuf to keep detonation away.
the standard gearbox in the n/a aw11 is known to blow even under standard boost on 4agze's. This could well be a product of abuse however.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 09:23
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| THE WITZL wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 23:19 |
turbo ALL OF THEM!!
seriously though.... i would stick with a smallport motor. In my opinion these are the BEST all round performance 4age, and have the capability of easily being modified for a variety of power targets with easy to find and cheap parts.....
For example - a cheap turbo conversion on a STOCK 100kW (smallport) 4age i did held up FINE to 11psi and some less than perfect tuning, giving me a tidy 116kW at the wheels.
If you want more, just add smallport 4agze pistons ($400 from toyota) and you have a 4agze (seriously, thats the ONLY difference, besides things hanging off the sides of the engines)
If you STILL want more... then there is a whole WORLD of aftermarket goodies for the humble 16V 4age.
Stuff the 20v - i dont like them
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I agree with all of that, except i like the GZE pistons, and a good aftermarket ECU is a must 
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 09:33
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I say buy a 4agze. Dont fuck around changing heads and pistons and any other type of shit.
If your looking to turbocharge it, get a new computer/exhaust/intercooler and you will have the makings of a nice engine.
If you have the money, then go all out and get a new plenum/injectors/cams/cam gears/ignition and whatever else you can afford.
having said that,
Dont beleive everything you hear, do it right the first time and if people think they are right then get them to back it up instead of it just being their opinion.
my 2 cents....
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 10:17
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it looks like the general opinion is that there are advantages to all of the iterations of the 4AG except maybe the 20 valve, as long as all the support systems ie, computer,cooling, etc are up to the task.
I just need to do some more research and figure out which will be cheapest!
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 10:25
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| frontspinner wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 20:17 |
I just need to do some more research and figure out which will be cheapest!
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There is no such thing as cheap man. Unless you want a full ghetto ride.... 
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 11:04
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did i mention my next thread was going to be "how do i paint my car black with a spraycan (after taking a few hits of paint myself) and make the biggest wing possible out of tin and polly pipe"?
i prolly should have said "most cost effestive" huh?
is there a need to upgrade ignition with a 4AGTE upto say 180rwkw? or will a good computr with a good tune be enough?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 12:15
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Whoa... 180rwks isn't actually a small figure for a 4agte. I'm looking at around that figure with the mods i'll have.
So far I've calculated the bill at around 9k or so (including an extra 1k for little stuff you always forget).
I've got a thread in the members rides section where you can check out the plan for my car.
Eddie.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 14:50
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i agree there is no such thing as cheap power if you wanna make your ride uber coool at the traffic lights then u need to spend dosh there is no way around it. The turbo i just bought is gonna cost me arround 7-8k to fit to make the power i want. This is cheap however considering other cars cost alot more to make them go quick.
I agree with fat buying a gze saves time and money and one in good nic cam make 180kw atw.
However there are merits in using the 100kw small port block and using gze pistons if the car that your modifying came standard with the 100kw motor as you dont need an engineering certificate which can save you upwards of $500 buks.
I guess it all depends on your situation i bought a half cut for my aw11 because i knew the potential of the motor/gearbox that they are damn strong from the factory.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 14:54
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btw 180 rwkw in an aw11 mr2 should translate to a 12 sec quater mile
so 7500 buks for the car 3000 for the gze conversion and 8000 for the turbo conversion
all up that =
18500 or 20000 give or take for a car that handles well and will kill a 300kw hsv at the lights sounds cheap to me
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 15:15
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| 4agte wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 00:50 |
However there are merits in using the 100kw small port block and using gze pistons if the car that your modifying came standard with the 100kw motor as you dont need an engineering certificate which can save you upwards of $500 buks.
I guess it all depends on your situation i bought a half cut for my aw11 because i knew the potential of the motor/gearbox that they are damn strong from the factory.
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I was planning on a rebuild anyways and smallport motors are far far cheaper than the gze. Gze pistons im getting 2nd hand for next to nothing and even new pistons aren't expensive from Toyota. The manifold i can use for the turbo as well.
Add that to the fact that i can make another motor from the bigport bottom end with the smallport head i'll have leftover, it was the best option for me.
But i had no need for loom/ecu because i was always planning on a stand-alone unit. But for 180rwkw, you'll definately need an aftermarket ecu.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Thu, 12 May 2005 21:59
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yes thats for sure
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 05:44
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| Big T wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 22:15 |
Whoa... 180rwks isn't actually a small figure for a 4agte. Eddie.
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Well, for some it is
Nah, he's right. 180rwkws is a fairly impressive power figure to have coming from a 1.6L If you got this much power im sure you would enjoy it.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 11:31
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| 4agte wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 00:54 |
btw 180 rwkw in an aw11 mr2 should translate to a 12 sec quater mile
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how do you figure?
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 11:39
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well an mr2 running worn pirelli tyres and making 200 atw ran an 11.7 so i would say that 180kw atw should be capable of running a high if not low 12
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 15:02
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| 4agte wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 21:39 |
well an mr2 running worn pirelli tyres and making 200 atw ran an 11.7 so i would say that 180kw atw should be capable of running a high if not low 12
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If your talking about bens car, i beleive he had 205rwkw (spanktown knows the exact figure)
Therefore, i should be able to do the same hhmmmmmm.....
WSID here i come
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 16:42
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yeah was about 205 i was rounding it out but yeah should be 11's for that much power.
You cant really beat the aw11 for bang for buck.
Youd need to spend 20k to get a silvia into the 11's and probably a similar amount for a gtr
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 20:05
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>>"There is no such thing as cheap man."
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I used to believe that nonsense. If you make the *right* decisions, and can do your own work, its possible to achieve amazing results for 'cheap'. Proven many times over.
"You have to pay to play" is brainwash talk
>>"Youd need to spend 20k to get a silvia into the 11's"
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really? 20k on what ?
fmic + piping + 3" exhaust + $600usd t28 hybrid + chipped ecu + 740cc
No cams. Exhaust mani/head/inlet/tb all bone stock. 325whp/335tq
full wt. airconditioned u.s. spec (heavier) s13 hatch/sr20 swap.
Trapped 121mph! spun drag radials, going sideways. Ran 12.2 with lousy 2.X 60ft. easily solid 11sec capable.
Some silvias run 12s on stock t25 over here
what type of 60ft do 12/11sec aw11 clock ?
how does the ae86 compare with the same power ?
This one's very impressive
http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=93991
I notice miata mx5 guys turbocharging their stock motors and running mid to hi 12s using junkyard 60trim T3 turbos. No ecus, only piggybacks or fuel pressure reg and timing retard. 1.8 tho.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 23:34
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| quest wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 06:05 |
>>"There is no such thing as cheap man."
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I used to believe that nonsense. If you make the *right* decisions, and can do your own work, its possible to achieve amazing results for 'cheap'. Proven many times over.
"You have to pay to play" is brainwash talk
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No doubt you can do things on a budget and achieve good results.
But if you would like to have all nice new gear in your car it is going to cost you. And at the end of the day i would prefer to have new stuff over second hand things anyday but then again, thats just me.
Also, it all depends on what your understanding of cheap is...?
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 23:35
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they clock quite decent 60ft times as they have a mid engine layout
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 23:50
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I am in the process of spending fairly big $'s at the moment on my 4agte conversion in the sprinter.
If you are about doing things the right way the first time, then there is massive $'s to spend on just the shit that gets bolted onto and around the engine!
A proper fuel system, W58 gearbox, custom clutch, new turbo, injectors, manifold/s, new brakes, fuck the list goes on and on.
That said, i am trying to do the best I can on my car so that it is done to my levels first go!
It can however be all done very cheaply but i believe the end result may still be almost as powerful but i dont believe as reliable.
Who knows though, it may be and some people get lucky but I don't want to risk it.
Thats my opinion. But I have set high levels from the start and perhaps some of these levels of quality and the like don't need to be that high, it is all personal choice on how much money you want to waste....
Jezza
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Fri, 13 May 2005 23:52
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| quest wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 06:05 |
>>"There is no such thing as cheap man."
-------------------
I used to believe that nonsense. If you make the *right* decisions, and can do your own work, its possible to achieve amazing results for 'cheap'. Proven many times over.
"You have to pay to play" is brainwash talk
>>"Youd need to spend 20k to get a silvia into the 11's"
-------------------
really? 20k on what ?
fmic + piping + 3" exhaust + $600usd t28 hybrid + chipped ecu + 740cc
No cams. Exhaust mani/head/inlet/tb all bone stock. 325whp/335tq
full wt. airconditioned u.s. spec (heavier) s13 hatch/sr20 swap.
Trapped 121mph! spun drag radials, going sideways. Ran 12.2 with lousy 2.X 60ft. easily solid 11sec capable.
Some silvias run 12s on stock t25 over here
what type of 60ft do 12/11sec aw11 clock ?
how does the ae86 compare with the same power ?
This one's very impressive
http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=93991
I notice miata mx5 guys turbocharging their stock motors and running mid to hi 12s using junkyard 60trim T3 turbos. No ecus, only piggybacks or fuel pressure reg and timing retard. 1.8 tho.
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this is 20k australian not us and i noticed that you said that it was a us spec s13 so you have to have done an sr20det engine swap which would have added 5k australian to the cost
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 00:09
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| Rallystanza wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 09:50 |
Thats my opinion. But I have set high levels from the start and perhaps some of these levels of quality and the like don't need to be that high, it is all personal choice on how much money you want to waste....
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Thats just how i felt. At the end of the day you want it to be the best you can so second hand stuff doesnt always cut it.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 00:09
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To answer the question about the ignition system. If you are using a GZE as a base you will most likley have twin coils, which will handle that no problems. I haven had much experience with dizzy GE's so I cant comment on those.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 00:10
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I have the dizzy gze. I changed the ignition though as the standard set up cant handle it.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 03:30
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| Quote: |
I used to believe that nonsense. If you make the *right* decisions, and can do your own work, its possible to achieve amazing results for 'cheap'. Proven many times over.
"You have to pay to play" is brainwash talk
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someone that talks my language.
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 05:13
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in order to turbo charge my small port 100kw 4age in my sx corolla , what would i need ?
and it would not cost 20 thousand dollars to run in the 11's with an sr20det manual as a starting base. no way
especialy not a GTR , bigger front mount , 3' exhaust etc ..just little things and ur grandma could run 12's in it.
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 06:32
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don't misunderstand me... I'm not knocking any decisions that folks make. Yes, its all about what makes one happy, but remember, spending alot of money in no way gaurantee a faster or more reliable car. It is only an option, nothing more.
Choices will make or break a project, more than anything else.
Drop $1500 on a bb turbo and Ks on a motec/tuner and you can still be ripped to pieces by a used $300 turbo/$650 d.i.y. ecu job. Believe that
While aftermarket brake kit$$ are nice, 4pot fc or nissan used jobs may very well outperform them.
Sure, we'd all love to go brand new gear, to errrr.... bolt onto our 10-15yr old 4AGs.
>>"If you are about doing things the right way "
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thats another thing I don't believe in. There is no such thing as THE right way... only whats "right for you", eh.
>>"20k australian not us and i noticed that you said that it was a us spec s13 so you have to have done an sr20det engine swap which would have added 5k australian to the cost"
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I use the sr20 example as its something u guys can relate to. Its not a "5k swap" over there. The recipee I posted is quite basic. Add it up.
Again choice dictates. Lots of sr20 'bandwagoners' bash the 2.4L nissan "truck motor" that came stock in the u.s. 240sx. Dollar for dollar, the KA will blow away an SR20, hands down. Recently seen one dyno 600 ft-lbs tq to the threads! That is *not* 4 cylinder territory. Simply amazing for a cheap motor that can fit quite easily under the hood of an ae86, eh. Any little 'revver' can put up the "hp numbers", but tq is what distinguishes the zeroes from the heros.
back on topic, a boosted 4ag in a 1100kg hull is quite a potent package
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 07:44
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| quest wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 16:32 |
A boosted 4ag in a 1100kg hull is quite a potent package
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Its not too bad...
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:00
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tell me how 2 do it!! lol
i wana say ...ah yeah , its alright lmao
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:12
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| Quote: |
well an mr2 running worn pirelli tyres and making 200 atw ran an 11.7 so i would say that 180kw atw should be capable of running a high if not low 12
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Yep, if my front engined corolla can run 12.5 with 180kw & street tyres, then you guys with the rear engined cars should be laughing your way to quicker 60' & 1/4 mile times
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:18
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| OUTRUN wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 18:00 |
tell me how 2 do it!! lol
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there is so much info and different set-ups out in web land seeing nearly everyone has a 4agte nowadays, that a good internet search will answer all your prayers. 
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:38
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| quest wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 16:32 |
don't misunderstand me... I'm not knocking any decisions that folks make. Yes, its all about what makes one happy, but remember, spending alot of money in no way gaurantee a faster or more reliable car. It is only an option, nothing more.
Choices will make or break a project, more than anything else.
Drop $1500 on a bb turbo and Ks on a motec/tuner and you can still be ripped to pieces by a used $300 turbo/$650 d.i.y. ecu job. Believe that
While aftermarket brake kit$$ are nice, 4pot fc or nissan used jobs may very well outperform them.
Sure, we'd all love to go brand new gear, to errrr.... bolt onto our 10-15yr old 4AGs.
>>"If you are about doing things the right way "
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thats another thing I don't believe in. There is no such thing as THE right way... only whats "right for you", eh.
>>"20k australian not us and i noticed that you said that it was a us spec s13 so you have to have done an sr20det engine swap which would have added 5k australian to the cost"
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I use the sr20 example as its something u guys can relate to. Its not a "5k swap" over there. The recipee I posted is quite basic. Add it up.
Again choice dictates. Lots of sr20 'bandwagoners' bash the 2.4L nissan "truck motor" that came stock in the u.s. 240sx. Dollar for dollar, the KA will blow away an SR20, hands down. Recently seen one dyno 600 ft-lbs tq to the threads! That is *not* 4 cylinder territory. Simply amazing for a cheap motor that can fit quite easily under the hood of an ae86, eh. Any little 'revver' can put up the "hp numbers", but tq is what distinguishes the zeroes from the heros.
back on topic, a boosted 4ag in a 1100kg hull is quite a potent package
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since when did this turn into a nissan thread?
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:46
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so whats the point of this forum if you cant help me out?
i just want a standard compression , backyard kinda job...the only ones ive seen on the net are full hectic ones or how 2 turbo a 4agze..i dont want either
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 09:29
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| OUTRUN wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 18:46 |
so whats the point of this forum if you cant help me out?
i just want a standard compression , backyard kinda job...the only ones ive seen on the net are full hectic ones or how 2 turbo a 4agze..i dont want either
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The point of this forum is that the information is already there... you just need to stop being lazy and look for it.
The basics of converting a GZE to GTE are the same as converting a GE to a GTE. Do the research and you'll be fine.
To briefly answer your question. You need manifold, turbo, pipes, intercooler, oil cooler, ecu, injectors(maybe), dump pipe, exhaust, new sump. That's just off the top of my head. Look for the rest of them.
Eddie.
[Updated on: Sat, 14 May 2005 09:30]
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 14:26
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OUTRUN
if you wanna 'hack it', you'll have to find a similar setup and copy.
Is a 100kw a "map sensor" system ? If so, you're lucky as piggybacks will enable u to run boost while maintaining your oe ecu - emanage or smt6. The FAQ here and club4ag should document 'the basics'.
Excercise patience. The better informed u r, the better your outcome.
>>"since when did this turn into a nissan thread?"
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errr... didn't "you" bring 20k silvias into this thread ?
u posted info on moded silvias that is waaayyyyy off imo. Are you not interested in knowledge, so you make make more accurate comments ?
Mod for mod, an s13 platform could very well outperform the aw11, eh.
20k, even au$ is just not realistic.
>>"they clock quite decent 60ft times as they have a mid engine layout"
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that suggests the obvious... now how about some 'real numbers'. Seen 1/4 ets but can't recall any 60 fts. I don't wanna 'assume' anything.
The ae86 has the advantage of unlimited diff gear ratio selection, that may make up the difference in et ?
TE72,
your car is awesome!! 12.5 with 180kw & street tyres is rippin.
You aussies have the better examples I've seen on the net.
One u.s. effort that opened my eyes a few years back was a 1.6 ae86 that ran 12.0 using emanage and t3/t4. Later went 10.9 on standalone and a few more 'tweaks'.
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:01
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yes i believe it is a map sensor, does that mean with a piggyback itll run as good as a aftermarket ecu?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:20
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i would NOT run a piggyback computer on a 4agte if you want to make decent reliable power with a good tune. I did, and i regret having done so, as i saw the potential for MUCH more power that was simply unachievable with the emanage.
In australia here we have this lovely CHEAP aftermarket ECU called a Microtech. Look them up!!
They are worth around US$800-1000 complete with a loom, they plug into all your standard engine sensors and there is even an extra ignition box to add on for under US$200 to run individual coils. They are very common over here and there are plenty of good tuners. COmpared to a piggyback its just so easy to spend that teeny bit extra and have something far more capable.
Engine computer semantics aside though.... we are talking more about the actual engines here. Or at least we are supposed to be
SR20's are ghey, mmkay.
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:26
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im in australia dont we call them microlebs ??
i should stop listening 2 the american, i guess.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:49
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| OUTRUN wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 18:00 |
tell me how 2 do it!! lol
i wana say ...ah yeah , its alright lmao
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To be honest it really isnt that hard. If you tell us what sort of power you want and what sort of budget you have to work with then it shouldnt be too hard to give you an idea of how to go about it.
Then.......perhaps you can say.......ah yeah, its alright
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 04:17
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my neighbour runs a map 4age ecu + safc + 440s + t3 turbo + fmic.
Motor is redtop head/ bluetop 9.4:1 bottom. Daily driven a couple years now. Behaves oe quality, performance in another world. 3 speed auto tranny will light up the tires until halfway thru 2nd while you're pinned in the seat. 8-10psi on pump, no timing control either.
There are lots of miatas boosting stock motor via fuel press regs and timing retard with outstanding results. Piggyback is the next level before standalone. I base my decisions on peoples success with any particular item - pb or standalone
As I mentioned above "that ran 12.0 using emanage and t3/t4"
In the u.s there are quite a few mitsu 2L running 11s quarters, tuned via $250 safc and a $150 datalogger/oe ecu. These motors have well over 100k on their stock innards. Those cars weigh ~3300 pounds.
Sure standalones would be the ultimate, but piggybacks are proven to deliver on thousands of turbo cars. Not even subject to debate.
We have cheap ecu options in the u.s. also. I previously posted a daily driven 10.8s, stock bottom end 4cyl managed by a $650 ecu. It was the owners 1st tuning attempt also!
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 10:43
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Thanks everyone who has posted here, its been very helpful!
Im sort of shying away from a GZE...mainly due to the initial cost of them, compared to a 100kw...and besides and i want to have an NA donk for a while, untill i get the rest of the car up to scratch.
Im also thinking that i should do a full rebuild on a 100kw, using gze pistons, if i do a rebuild, should i put a big port head on it?
is it worth it?
is there any complication involved?
has anyone done a full rebuild on a 4AGE? what sort of money am i going to spend?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 10:59
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If you're keeping it NA why would you want the GZE pistons? You want HIGHER compression on an NA engine, not lower. Also keep the smallport head for NA... they rule over the bigport in mild applications.
Rebuild will cost somewhere in the order of 900-2500, depending on the parts you get. Mine is costing 1750 in parts alone but i can do most of the labour.
Eddie.
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 11:58
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Because i plan to do a turbo conversion in about a year or so, the rebuild and addition of GZE pistons, and aftermarket ecu would take place at about the same time, i just want to start looking for and collecting parts now, so i don't have a huge upfront cost when it comes the time to put it all together.
i also don't want to buy an engine then decide i should have got a different one when i go to do the turbo work.
i want reasonable reliability, and about 150-190kw at the wheels.
At the risk of getting chased out of Toyota land and/or sparking a Toyota v Nissan battle...what about a CA18DET as an alternative to a boosted 4AGE?
(the point of this thread is to help me make an engine choice on my project car which is a KE35 coupe)
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 16:41
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quest,
in australia, hardly anyone uses interceptor and patch in style computers for those sort of applications. In fact the general concensus amongst car modifiers is that americans have some sort of crazy love for them which we just cant understand nor justify.
Not to attack you personally, nor the acheivements made with such setups..... but FFS why spend $10,000 on an engine and then decide that a US$1700 Autronic is too much, and opt for the budget and far inferior intercepting alternatives????
It doesnt make sense to me.
MY experience is that they work well, but nowhere near what even the cheapest of standalone alternatives can.
i shudder at your neighbours ignition timing being left unchanged.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 23:58
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| frontspinner wrote on Tue, 17 May 2005 21:58 |
Because i plan to do a turbo conversion in about a year or so, the rebuild and addition of GZE pistons, and aftermarket ecu would take place at about the same time, i just want to start looking for and collecting parts now, so i don't have a huge upfront cost when it comes the time to put it all together.
i also don't want to buy an engine then decide i should have got a different one when i go to do the turbo work.
i want reasonable reliability, and about 150-190kw at the wheels.
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Thats fair enough but you do realise there is a big difference between 150 and 190 rwkw. You could get 140-150 through running the gze ecu quite reasonably.
Like i said, it depends on the level of rebuild you want to undertake. The reason mine's costing a bit is that i'm going to be using a fair few aftermarket bits like TRD bearing and ARP bolts. Note that the 1750 in cost doesn't include things like the new cams or cam gears because i don't think these are actually necessary for a rebuild.
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Location:
Eastern Melbourne
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 18 May 2005 02:26
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yeah im fully aware of the difference between 150, and 190 rwkw, and the thousands of dollars between them.
Im just trying to get as much info and advice from people why know or have done this before, just so i dont go spending money where i dont have to, and still have a fair bit of punch, and retain reliability. thats what will dictate how serious i get with the rebuild.
But one thing im a big advocate of is manegment systems, whatever engine i put in will get an aftermarket computer before a turbo is put on.
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 18 May 2005 12:35
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>>"the general concensus amongst car modifiers is that americans have some sort of crazy love for them which we just cant understand nor justify."
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maybe americans love things that simply work.... at a helluva bargain.
For example, the mitsu 2L runs exactly like stock. Goes thru cold start, idles up for ac, knock sensor works perfect, etc...
The safc is owner tuned and installed in minutes. Standalone ain't.
Once 'dailed in', operation is transparent despite lower resolution.
No bitchin' up a loom or custom one.
No paying $$$$ for any installer or tuner
Enables a 100k+ mile, stock internal motor to propell a 3300 pound hull to 11sec ETs reliably.
So you find that approach "crazy" ?
What makes more sense to you, is to yank out such a perfect running setup, that delivers loads of fun and has surpassed performance expectatoins, eh.... then you take apart an equally good performing motor to build it up, for no reason ??
And no, standalone will NOT be "far better" here.
You pick up a tool to do a job. Piggybacks have their place and they outsell everything else, for a reason.
This applies to mitsu, nissan, toy, mazda, honda......
Take a B13 sr20 nissan sentra 9.5:1 and bolt on a bluebird t25 & manifold. Replace the 260cc with used 370cc. Hack a s14 afm or use another nissan unit. Add a fmic. Tune via a $250 safc.
That daily driver runs flawless, and you've just dropped your et from 15.8s to 13.2-12.8s
.... but you can't understand why its so popular ?
I can go on forever with examples, but it'd be pointless.
Bottom line is, the majority of power comes from fuel and timing.
>>"i shudder at your neighbours ignition timing being left unchanged."
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he knows what he's doing. Road tuned/plug read. Dial the base timing back a bit (gives up a minor bit of response, but......)
Timing control is only an inexpensive MSD "boost timing master" away, if he wanted. Provides an adjustable igniton retard curve under boost.
Ran the same 4ag @14psi on race gas. Even with (deliberate) tire spin, the torque still smoked the tranny.
>>"but FFS why spend $10,000 on an engine and then decide that a US$1700 Autronic is too much"
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most folks this side would say why spend $10k on a motor period! How much sense does that make, when the factory did such a great job already, and its proven to make more power reliably than your goal?
Sure, for hardcore 10/11sec street car performance, go all out $$$, but I think you've disregarded a major segment of the car enthusiast - those who want nothing more than a reasonably fast street car.... u know, perhaps like the audience in this thread. Until you approach the limits of a piggyback or oe mgmt etc, OR get to the point where you're trying to extract 'big numbers', the benefits of standalone may not justify the cost.
On the question of the ca18det. Yes, some folks get upset. Who cares? Thats really 'their' problem, not ours I have a complete drivetrain that will end up in a corolla. If after sick performance, it makes far more sense for me to swap than throw money at a 4ag & standalone.
It already has a stout gbox and I'm sure, on stock innards/nissan $150 chipped ecu, it'll make more torque and dust *most* 'built' 4ag + ecu. They'll spend more and run no better or faster.
I plan to run the SMT6 on my map ecu turbo 4ag project.
Costs $350, does fuel and timing 16x16 maps, via laptop
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Location:
Parra
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 18 May 2005 12:40
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FATMR2
maybe 2 grand or so
wat can i do ??
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Best 4AGE for boost?
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Wed, 18 May 2005 13:06
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| OUTRUN wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 22:40 |
FATMR2
maybe 2 grand or so
wat can i do ??
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hhhhmmmmmmm.........Not as much as you would like. If you want it to be turbo or sc then 2k might buy you the 4agze engine and box? I say save up a little more and then try to get a 4agze into your car. It'll go a lot quicker than it does now and shouldnt cost too much.
Failing all that, if my motor is still ok, i will sell it to you for 2k.
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