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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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 Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 05:27
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As the thread says, this would be a wicked project. As you know the Suzuki RS/R is only 590cc similar to that of the small anemic bambina engine. Only diference is that the Alto keeps up with a lot of cars. It is a tiny engine, but then so is the car, which gives it a very big power to weight ratio.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not swaying away from the Ke55 coupe, just trying to line up the next project, and one thats never been done before. Imagine this little Bambina with fat feet, lowered, coilovers, 4wd and turbo. It sounds awsome.
Now question is: Can a front mounted transverse engine and 4wd running gear be turned around and fitted as rear mounted transverse? I am thinking the crownwheels would have top be swapped over to start with, I think?
Before anyone jumps in here and says "anything is possible"... I know. But here's the thing, I can't be the only one thinking outside the square.
So... what needs to be lookedd at when contemplating reversing a 4wd setup?
Cheers
Ciaran Whelan.
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 09:44
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Wouldn't forwards become backwards? Like 1st through to 5th gears would drive the car backwards and only reverse go forward? Or is that what you were talking about with the crownwheels? 
You'd probably need to beef up the chassis and do a major redesign of the suspension to get AWD hooked up to the front wheels. It might be a bit extreme, but if you really wanted to do it you could get a tube frame chassis engineered to match your driveline and drop the shell of the Fiat over the top.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 10:31
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| cwhelan wrote on Thu, 12 May 2005 15:27 |
As you know the Suzuki RS/R is only 590cc similar to that of the small anemic bambina engine.
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Actually, a suzuki RS/R engine is a 660cc 3 cyl 12 valve turbo engine. Commonly known as the F6A or F6B.
If you really want to get technical it's 657cc 
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 10:50
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Don't destroy it. you will do the mod lave it at the time and later on you will hate yourself for destroying it. It looks to be in really good condition, find one that is already a heap of shit.
Keep the motoring history original/factory
Ty
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 10:53
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It is also a suicide door model, most sort after of the bambinos.
Don't do it
Ty
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Location:
Gympie Qld
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 11:06
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I'm with the other guys on this one being a Fiat guy from way back. Don't wreck a Bambino like that. Maybe convert it to an Arbarth copy with fat rubber but don't cut it up. Doubt there would be much left anyway. The front end runs a transverse leaf spring set up so removing all that and getting the 4wD stuff in wouldn't leave much car.
Sounds like a wicked project however but why not destroy a Niki. No one cares about them and they are essentially a "modern" Bambino anyway.
My pet idea that I may or may not ever get around to is a mid mounted RWD 4AGE turbo powered Niki for the drag strip.
In RWD form only you'd get it to work easier as you are just relocating the drivetrain towards the back but the orientation is still the same as if it's up front. To get it to run back to front you'd need to look at a different transaxle set up not likely. Not sure though as haven't seenteh orinetation of the Suzuki.
I know some mates built a gymkhana 126 hatch years ago with a larger 128 based motor. Had to get different starter, new cam machined 180 degrees out etc as they face the opposite way and it was the easiest way to get it to work. Esentially we made the motor run the opposite direction.
Gavin
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 12:46
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I have had 4 Bambi's and 1 Topolino so far, restored one and had a write up and photo shoot for classic wheels. Had my fair share in bringing them to there former glory. I have seen a bambi in Durban, S.Africa with a mid mounted Datsun 1200 with twin Delorto's in full song, and that has given me a few thoughts on the little car.
Don't get me wrong, I am not out for destroying cars for no reason. If it was my first dealing with the Fiats then I wouldn't attempt what I would like to do. I probably won't go ahead with it, but it is something niggling in the back of my mind as something that has to be done.
A 600cc Abarth would be easy to fit as it is hard and expensive to find. From memory, and sometimes not the most reliable thing to rely on, the F6A & B is 2001 on and not available in Australia yet as an import car. The F5 is the one that is 590cc or there abouts. Kei reg's meant that the engine capacity had to be under 600cc before 2000. Please don't quote me, as I said I am going on memory here. I'm fairly sure the Kei reg's were 2000 or 1999 for the 600cc and under rule.
Anyway enough said on that and trying to correct within 100cc or so, that wasn't the issue  , but thank you for your very helpfull information fatmr2.
I also know this is a Toyota forum, for those that would love to point that out. My question is merely a technical question aimed for those that would like to entertain such an idea and would be able to input ideas on reversing a front mounted transverse engine. Has anyone got ideas reverse engineering a crownwheel if that was the only thing to think about?
Fester... A Niki? They have got to be the ugliest looking "small car" about. I prefer the round features of the Bambi. Mid mouted 4age would be an easier project, just drop in the 4age fwd setup shorten half shafts and remote gear change setup like a Beetle and Porsche. If it was all as simple as that, it would be a fun project. Reverse rotation of an engine would be a bitch of a thing to do, you would have to also include dizzy, fuel pump cam and probably oil pump. Not something I would ever attempt, Well done to your friends that managed this task.
Corbet01.... A suicide model is not one I would chop ideally, but now that I think about it, it could be even better to have suicide doors on a custom car this small. OOOOHH my nuts are starting to tingle with excitement of this idea. 
Smashed Wombat.... 5 gears in reverse? I'm looking at the funny side and the extra funny side. It may be easier to be in boost in reverse. I can see a picture of gods must be crazy and me sitting on the bonnet trying to steer the bambi through town.
 Ciaran
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 13:08
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Apic of the engine setup of the turbo 547cc F5A engine that is in question. Bear in mind that this looks tight, but it has an aircon setup fitted, which would be removed prior.
Imagine 4wd bambi turbo, it would hop off the ground all 4 wheels on launch 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 17:33
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dude, you know you want to put all of it in a Mightyboy!!! Good luck finding one in good nick though, I've been keeping a lazy eye out for a good one for ages.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 18:37
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do it to a nikki 650. same car, but they are'nt a classic and therefore aren't worth their weight in packing foam. I've seen rust free registered ones for as little as $200.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 12 May 2005 22:05
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in a lotus car lotus used a vw beatle engine and gearbox. they mid mounted the engine which meant the gearbox would be facing the other way. The solution was to turn the gearbox upside down so that everything would work as normal and added a few extra ltrs of oil
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Fri, 13 May 2005 07:12
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You don't wanna keep that lazy eye out for me also do you?
Secoh... I wouldn't touch a niki if ya paid me mate. I recon
a Fully subwoofered and sick turbo 4wd bambi would be the way to go, yes it is a classic, and thats half the reason to do it.
As if you'll even want to polish a niki on a nice afternoon, but I can gaurantee you would spend the day shining a shmicko bambi lowered and blown off its tits. And not to mension the fat feet sitting just proud of its already fat arches just waiting to be filled. Sorry lads, the more I think about it the more realistic it seems to be able to do.
Hey Clint, any experience there in turning a 4wd drive train "about face"? I wonder who I could sit down and chat over such a project?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Fri, 13 May 2005 09:19
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Download messenger, add me and babble away.
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Fri, 13 May 2005 12:17
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Added you to messenger, pigshyte@yahoo.com
I know your all thinking what the hell is this lad on about, it a toyota forums and thats that... Well, as toyota forums go, I'm pretty damn comfortable here and here to stay. At the end of the day, we are all doing the same thing, looking at ways to modify cars and grab the attention to all that may be interested. Not only that but also stimulate the mechanical mind, hence throwing my idea out in the open(thought I might speak my mind).
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Location:
hills, sydney
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Fri, 13 May 2005 13:43
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Yahoomotorsport in adelaide have mighty boy with an Alto Works RS/X F5A 543cc turbo for sale. They also have a range of interesting Kei cars for sale. http://home.iprimus.com.au/jverban/
A rare classic like a bambino really shouldn't be fcukd with, but your idea is an interesting one.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Fri, 13 May 2005 15:47
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| cwhelan wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 17:12 |
Secoh... I wouldn't touch a niki if ya paid me mate.
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I wouldn't piss on either of them if they were on fire. In fact I would be less likely to piss on it if it was on fire.
A north south transaxle such as in the bambino/niki/VW beele and kombi/subaru can either have the diff centre flipped in the housing (kombi and renault is a prime candidate for this) or the whole transaxle tipped upside down.
east west transaxles such as the suzuki (and nearly every other FWD type car) you don't have those options. But then you don't have to, all you do is move the gearbox to the back of the car but keep it in the same layout. You might (if you are lucky) be able to pass the rear drive shaft for the (ordinarily) rear wheels through the gearbox and weld on a new front bearing and seal housing. it's complicated and not easy and fraight with potential failure though.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 14 May 2005 01:00
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Why dont you look at something with the engine already in the rear, ie. Honda ACTY van, I looked at doing something with one of these a while back (may still do so in the future). The engine is basicaly a non turbo cappucino engine. Not 4wd but there may be a 4WD version in japan??
Julian
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Location:
Toowoomba
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 14 May 2005 01:50
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you would probably be better off putting the motor in the front and running it like it came out of the other car either way you have to modify ALL of the subframe so you may as well put it in the front and modify everything to suit.
Ps how much room is there in the front "boot" area if you want to put it in there?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:12
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you know what i reckon would make an awesome car????
mini moke... one of the few twin engine models... fitted with not one.. but TWO 4AGZE's... hehehhee... would take a shit load of work no doubt... but imagine it... *drools*
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On Probation
Location:
launceston tas
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 14 May 2005 08:32
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hahahaa what a fnkn sweet idea man go ahead. 
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sun, 15 May 2005 15:21
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| Quote: |
Yahoomotorsport in adelaide have mighty boy with an Alto Works RS/X F5A 543cc turbo for sale. They also have a range of interesting Kei cars for sale.
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I went to see this guy last week, he was the weirdest chap I've ever had dealings with. I'm not exagerating here either, he asked me to make an appointment and asked me to leave when I was showing clear interest in one of the cars. I won't go into detail as I won't slander the guy, I just won't deal with him again.
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east west transaxles such as the suzuki (and nearly every other FWD type car) you don't have those options. But then you don't have to, all you do is move the gearbox to the back of the car but keep it in the same layout.
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Not possible, as you can see in the sketch its too tight at the rear of these cars.
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Ps how much room is there in the front "boot" area if you want to put it in there?
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As you can see from this pic, the Front boot area is very limited. That elevated area behind the spare wheel well is just above your peddle area. I have contemplated trying to fit the engine in the front boot and moving the seating back a fraction to allow for a firewall to be fitted.
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you would probably be better off putting the motor in the front and running it like it came out of the other car either way you have to modify ALL of the subframe so you may as well put it in the front and modify everything to suit.
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That is exactly what I was thinkin might be the only other option if the diff's can't be turned to suit. I have found a half cut here in Adelaide, but a very expensive one ($2650) considering an import low mile complete works car can be brought in for $3000 including all the fees. I might go and look at the half cut and see if I can take some pics of the complete drive train to study.
Following are a few pics of a few little Bambina's done up, and look quite hot to have as a 4wd turbo "sleeper". Hmmmm, the mind ticks... could one have a mid mounted Bambi with 4agze
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On Probation
Location:
launceston tas
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Mon, 16 May 2005 10:11
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hmmm nice fotos
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Mon, 16 May 2005 12:38
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Ok.... Here's a question for you all.
I have checked the Wheelbase of both cars and they are fairly similar in size.
Bambina- Wheelbase: 2415mm
Trackwidth: 1739mm
Suzuki Alto- Wheelbase: 2360mm
Trackwidth: 1290mm
Now, heres the idea... Cut the body off of the Alto pan, leaving all neccesary running gear and flywall. Cut the body off of the Bambina leaving enough of the pan to stitch weld the Bambi body to the Alto pan and going from there.
Does anyone know if this can be done, if done correctly. Surely something like this would have been done many a time. What would the legalities be, and how much of a percentage of a car to be changed does it then be called another car?
Hope I can find out info on this. I will call the engineer this week to find out if this can be done and engineered.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Mon, 16 May 2005 15:24
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methinks you'll have a hard time convincing them it is strong enough if it is a monocoque design.. that said, if you libne it all up nice and reinforce it, there's no reason why it can't be as strong or stronger than before...
good luck
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Location:
Toowoomba
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Tue, 17 May 2005 06:51
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as oldcorollas said if you libne it all up nice and reinforce it, there's no reason why it can't be as strong or stronger than before.. this would be the best way to go i think as well
you will have to alter the guards to compensate for the difference in wheelbase and possibly longer suspension arms and driveshafts to allow for the difference in width but with all said and done anything is possible if you have the time and money
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Tue, 17 May 2005 13:13
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I rang Graeme Burton from Tonkin Consulting (Automotive engineers in Wayville, Adelaide, 82733100). I had a good chat with him about the idea of what the options are. He was very interested in both my idea's, I was told that both are very achievable. He was very informative and said that graphing the Bambina body on the Suzuki Alto pan with all the running gear at the ready would be the easiest option, as it will just be a case of cut and shut. He is looking forward to the project to be underway and he will check it and give me advice on the way. The advantage is that there won't have to be any mechanical modifications as such. Has anyone else here cut a body off a car before? I have done a few flip front modifications on mini's and strengthened the front sub chassis. I guess it is a matter of getting into it all with an angle grinder and seeing what fits where...
I just don't know what to expect when cutting a body off of a pan and getting a donor pan ready.
I'm not sure how I would go about making longer "A-arms" and longer drive shafts. I have 250mm on each side to make up for, so that already is a fair size task. This I will be interested in hearing what to look for. 50mm wheelbase difference will be an easy one to over come as a prop shaft will be easy to get made up. The other option is to fit all this into a bambi and go hydraulic drive.??
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Wed, 18 May 2005 00:15
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Bah, waste of time.
A guy over here in NZ converted his Bambina to a RWD 308 V8. Now that is worthwhile (if slightly, actually completely insane) conversion
Unfortunately it pushed the wheels way out the guards front and rear. I think he sat in the back seat too.
Callum
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Wed, 18 May 2005 00:18
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PS, your bambina track width is way wrong, no chance it is that wide.
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Wed, 18 May 2005 13:49
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Hey Callum,
I think I have seen that Bambi when I was living in Hawkes Bay, it was nuts. Since my last message, I have found a good body for very cheap, $200. It will serve its purpose for the mod.
I am still to find the correct dimensions of the bambi as in regards to track and overall width. I have an Alto on its way from Japan now, should be here in 8wks, so looking forward to getting this project under way. I will probably start in the new year as we are off to S.Africa for 2 months starting November. So its now time to save for holiday and get engaged over there with my family around. So many things so little time!!
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Toymods Club Treasurer
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Thu, 19 May 2005 02:28
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| CLG wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 03:33 |
dude, you know you want to put all of it in a Mightyboy!!! Good luck finding one in good nick though, I've been keeping a lazy eye out for a good one for ages.
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Suzuki sold these from factory. ie turbo 4wd saw one for sale in Brisbane ages ago.
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Quote:
east west transaxles such as the suzuki (and nearly every other FWD type car) you don't have those options. But then you don't have to, all you do is move the gearbox to the back of the car but keep it in the same layout.
Not possible, as you can see in the sketch its too tight at the rear of these cars.
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Your idea of FWD gearboxes is all screwed up. You're not dealing with a north-south engine layout like the Bambino when you talk about the Suzuki.
The gearbox sits on the end of the engine, ie beside it.
i think your best setup would be to use a FWD turbo engine & gearbox, then sit that above/between the rear wheels to drive them. This is what Toyota did to the Corolla/Celica running gear to make the MR2s.
You wouldn't have to worry about the trans tunnel then or modifying the front suspension.
But you will lose your back seat because you'll have to extend the engine bay up & forwards.
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 21 May 2005 06:11
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Geez I can be thick sometimes, Your dead correct. I didn't even think of that at all. Thats what this is all about being pointed out in correction to help the train of thoughts. Thank you for that.
If I decide to go RWD only then it would be a good idea to just put it all in the back, but I am dead-set on wanting to go 4wd. Welding in a tunnel will be easy, that won't be a big problem as the configuration of the drive train. It is a matter of finding a way to get the propshaft through the other side of the gearbox/front diff. I would end up suitting on the bonnet and launching the car at the lights and eating a Silvia in reverse. Now that could be a funny topic!!
What must one look for when graphing a body onto another pan?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sat, 21 May 2005 10:27
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Most of you may have seen this, but look at it if you haven't. It's a Niki.
Not really what you are thinking of doing, but interesting all the same.
http://media.ebaumsworld.com/index.php?e=eurocar.w mv
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Location:
Adelaide, Semaphore
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Fiat bambina with Suzuki Alto works 4wd turbo running gear
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Sun, 22 May 2005 03:29
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Hahahahaha.... that is some funny shyte, not what I am thinking of doing, but it does look like it went through regency. Looks safer to drive that than some of the scrap that I see driving sometimes.
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