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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Thu, 12 May 2005 23:32
 
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What's with all these people coming on and arguing against the laws of physics? 
Whether someone's tried it or not dude, you can't change the fact that you've removed metal which is bad.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 00:22
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well, i'm doing an advanced diploma in mechanical engineering, and we do a fair lot of work on bolted/rivetted/welded connections. i'm not personally talking out of my arse.
my girlfriend's doing a double deg of aerospace and mechanical engineering, 4th year now... so i share fucking stupid ideas i hear on car forums with her, boy she cracked up hard.
so using your analogy of engine conversions... well, me telling you rivetting structural members together is a dumb idea, is the same as a mechanic telling you that you really shouldn't put a 2jz into a fiat niki.
ok?
and yeah, like justcallmefrank said, removing metal is bad.
welding adds metal = good.
drilling subtracts which is bad.
[Updated on: Fri, 13 May 2005 00:25]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sutho/Hills NSW
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 00:30
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| ninja_86 wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 09:24 |
so i take it every one here is speculating and no one has acctually tried it....so i guess it is kinda like telling someone how to do an engine conversion that you have never done
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when you do an engine conversion you do research right?...so you did research riveting before you did it right?
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 00:39
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OK Ninga, no need to get emotional about it.
Now for everyones benefit.....
Interpitching the spot welds as you have done is not going to compromise the chassis like many have suggested.
Will it be an improvement. Yes, interpitching the fasteners where you have will make a stronger joint.
Is it necessary - probably not. You would see orders of magnitude improvement in chassis stiffness with a decent strut brace.
The problem is not joint stiffness but basic geometry of the panels. Now if you wanted to increase the panel stiffness by cladding the inner guard with another layer of steel then that would be good also.
I have never seen a car where the spot welds on a strut tower have failed, so what makes you think you need a stronger joint there.
Seam welding is benefitial in areas like the sills and pillars because you are better closing the box section of the members thus making them stiffer. I am unconvinced that adding joint stiffness to a lap joint such as the strut tower will do anything.
Moral of the story. Chassis "strengthening" is good when necessary ie if things are cracking. Chassis "stiffening" is good for all circumstances (well maybe not crash cases - thats why they have crumple zones).
Remember Joint strength does not necessarily equal stiffness.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 00:46
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Oh and rivets aren't evil, they're good when used appropriately. and bad when unappropriate.
And stop pushing the "removing metal is bad" line. Thats about the equivalent of someone saying my V8 goes faster than your jap crap cos it's a V8 and yours doesn't.
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Location:
Adelaide, drift capital
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 01:01
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Just weld it ffs.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 01:36
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this is all "riverting" stuff. 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 02:42
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removing metal, per se, isnt bad, its the hole, AKA Mr 'stress riser' that the hole leaves behind which is bad hmmkhay...
$10 says i can tell you where the body will rip apart when force is applied to it 
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 04:02
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hmm....god knows i want to stay out of this shit storm but sometimes one does stupid things without sense or reason...
im not sure if u guys are aware but if u have seen pics of the inside of Hibino Tetsuyas car the whole thing is seam welded and riveted like crazy....if i had a scanner i would post the pic but otherwise its in issue 5 of DB...
Now im not saying that it worx or doesent but if D1 drivers are doing it i think there has to be some reason behind it right? 
Either way you would have to be doing something pretty nuts to "shear" your car on the "weaker" points of drilled holes..
bah
Adam
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 07:26
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Sounds like a lot of people are posting with not a huge amount of knowledge of the situation. I'll admit I don't know much about it, but things like this are always complicated. If they weren't why would Toyota employ a vast horde of body engineers to design their car bodies.
It'll depend on how the areas between the spot welds are stressed. Are they in tension, compression, shear, a combination??
Hen
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Location:
Adelaide, SA
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 07:50
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Welding looks better!
The theory of pop-riveting is nice, too bad it's very flawed.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 07:52
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ed's on the right track.
re: D1 drivers... their budgets are usually flexible enough that if they fuck a chassis, they can just go get another.
i hardly see the parallel between saying removing metal is bad, and saying a V8 is better than a jap 4banger.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 13:55
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Hibinos car also has yellow windows
Some things in the D1 are done purely for attention and show, and i daresay if they have reinforced the car with welds then riveting is probably one of them.
Dont get me wrong, it looks cool when done properly (i.e. straight lines...)
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Fri, 13 May 2005 14:42
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joel, thats fully hetic bro
i agree, just weld it you slackers
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 00:19
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Hmmm. I'm thinking that a D1 car is gonna need replacement panels regularly. Thats a great reason not to weld them on.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 02:05
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| gold28 wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 10:19 |
Hmmm. I'm thinking that a D1 car is gonna need replacement panels regularly. Thats a great reason not to weld them on.
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From the photos i have seen of Hibinos car (the one with pop rivets) the chassis is seam welded, the panels are still bolted on. Rivets are placed along the chassis seams.
Why in hell would you weld your panels on? NO structural force travels through them.
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Location:
Madrid - Spain
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 03:01
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short of the doors and hatch, everypanel aft of the firewall is structural as is the front inner guards, radiator support, crossmember etc.
I don't recall enyone suggesting that the front guards should be riveted on......
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 13:52
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Hey, im no aerospace engineer, but i seem to recollect that aircraft feuselages (spelling) etc. are designed to flex a fair amount, ( at least the last old Qantas heap i was in was flexing like Arnolds biceps )yet a cars chassis should be on the stiffer side, so applying the theory that "if its good for aeroplanes, its good for my car" doesnt add up.
On the other hand, I might be full of shite,
Bah
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 14:18
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Okay, I feel as an aircraft engineer, I may be of use here.
Aircraft are held together by solid rivets. Not pops. You bang them in with a rivet gun on one side, and a steel dolly on the other. We do use a type of pop rivet called a cherry rivet, but the shank stays behind and they're over $1 each just for the little 1/8th ones. Working/ loose rivets usually leave a black smudge around the rivet. Evidence of loose rivet best removed with a damp cloth. 
| Quote: |
Cool1 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 07:48
Rally/track cars should not get seam welded at all. If you want do do a cheap job you stitch weld. If you want to do the job correctly, you fit a full cage.......
If you get a decent full cage fitted there will not be any stress loading on the body at all.
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You've obviously never owned a serious rally car before. No amount of roll cage will save an un-seam welded floorpan if you land on a rock, or bang it too hard through a causeway. A smart car builder does both. For the added time it takes, it's cheap insurance. I have "decent full cages" in both my rally cars, and it still doesn't save them from pulling the odd seam. The seam welding slows it down though. If you break one weld, it generally stops at the next. IMHO pop rivets will be less effective than the spot welds, both in shear and tension loads, however, they MAY provide some increase in rigidity, right up to the moment you hit something, then you'll have wished you'd seam welded it.
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I have never seen a car where the spot welds on a strut tower have failed, so what makes you think you need a stronger joint there.
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Well, I have. My old rally car let go on the strut towers before I finally got off my fat proverbial and massaged it back into shape and seam welded it. Holds fine now. It's all horses for courses. What do you want to do with the car? If you want to pose, have all the gear and no idea, you're wasting your time and energy. If you're planning on putting the car through all shades of hell, it's a bloody good idea. Like roll cages really.
Hope this helps!
[Updated on: Sun, 15 May 2005 03:10]
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Banned user
Location:
ADELAIDE - The Drift City
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 14:51
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i had several cracks and case of welds coming appart at the seams in my black ae86. a good thing i started afresh with a new shell really!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:07
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| cannonball wrote on Sat, 14 May 2005 23:52 |
Hey, im no aerospace engineer, but i seem to recollect that aircraft feuselages (spelling) etc. are designed to flex a fair amount, ( at least the last old Qantas heap i was in was flexing like Arnolds biceps )yet a cars chassis should be on the stiffer side, so applying the theory that "if its good for aeroplanes, its good for my car" doesnt add up.
On the other hand, I might be full of shite,
Bah
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Build a 100ft long AE86, and then see what flex is!
If a Toyota was built as solid as a Boeing, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sat, 14 May 2005 15:15
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| Redwarf wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 00:18 |
| Quote: |
takai wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 09:45
Cool1 wrote on Wed, 11 May 2005 07:48
Rally/track cars should not get seam welded at all. If you want do do a cheap job you stitch weld. If you want to do the job correctly, you fit a full cage.
I would be seriously iffy about just fitting a full cage without stitch welding. It is pretty likely that once you have a full cage that the minor amounts of flex in the car will break the stock spot welds holding the car together. Indeed ive seen a few cracks in the rear half of my car with the half cage but no stitch welding.
Needless to say ill be stitch welding quite soon now.
If you get a decent full cage fitted there will not be any stress loading on the body at all.
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You've obviously never owned a serious rally car before. No amount of roll cage will save an un-seam welded floorpan if you land on a rock, or bang it too hard through a causeway. A smart car builder does both. For the added time it takes, it's cheap insurance. I have "decent full cages" in both my rally cars, and it still doesn't save them from pulling the odd seam. The seam welding slows it down though. If you break one weld, it generally stops at the next. IMHO pop rivets will be less effective than the spot welds, both in shear and tension loads, however, they MAY provide some increase in rigidity, right up to the moment you hit something, then you'll have wished you'd seam welded it.
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I agree entirely. I think you were trying to quote Cool1 there. Our old KE35 rally car had a 8" wide dent in the floorpan from a hefty branch on the track when we came barrelling along. Was about 6" from one of the seams and the stitch welding only came apart in the one point. We were able to get the car back to service, and then bash it out with a large hammer and re-weld.
I was thinking about it today, and i realised i have seen teams use rivets in holding panels together after a serious dent mid stage. But they are used in service, and only as a last resort to keep some structural integrity in the seam, and they were always gone by the next rally.
Oh yeah, and one of the scariest things ive seen in a while was a U12 Pintara strut tower which was forcibly ripped off the chassis and went through the bonnet. Thankfully it was only a khanacross/rallysprint car.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 03:08
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Correct, my apologises for the confusion, I'm not real computer literate.
R
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 03:43
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Man you people are getting more and more picky about the smallest things every day.
I didn't mention anything about rocks, logs, dead people or anything the like. I was talking about cages being used to make car chassis ridged.
But if you want to start talking about under body strength to stop the above causing damage, maybe you should be looking at some under body protection
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 03:54
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| Dirty_Sanchez wrote on Fri, 13 May 2005 11:36 |
this is all "riverting" stuff.
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literally LOL there.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Location:
south west sydney
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 06:45
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To my thinking there are four ways the strengthen a car chassis for motorsport use from the the most time consuming to the easist.
1.silver solder all seams ,very expensive/huge time
2.bronze weld all seams,cheaper /still huge time
3.mig weld all seams add roll cage either custom built or overcounter (brown davis or bond bars).
4. tig weld all seams adding strengthing plates as you go and on ae86 these are found on front chassis rails to firewall and top of front rails where guards bolt to chassis near opening to firewall plenum 6 to 8 inches foreward of top door hinge bolt holes,another place that neeeds strength is the top rear link locations on main body of car(these tend to pull out under constant use as the suspension binds up.
items 3 and 4 only vary to the use of tig or mig.
number 2 would be my preferred way to start a competition car.then add custom cage
number 3 the easist
the Sydney harbour bridge was built with rivets???????????????
squeak
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 07:10
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| Redwarf wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 14:24 |
Edit: Deleted most of the message due to the fact that arguing on the internet is a pointless excerise, however:
As for....| Quote: |
But if you want to start talking about under body strength to stop the above causing damage, maybe you should be looking at some under body protection
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Thanks, I can't imagine how I've been competing all these years without it.
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So you have under body protection, but you have trouble with damaging floor pans Yeah ok...pffft
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 07:34
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| Cool1 wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 17:10 |
| Redwarf wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 14:24 |
Thanks, I can't imagine how I've been competing all these years without it.
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So you have under body protection, but you have trouble with damaging floor pans Yeah ok...pffft
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No, im the one who has damaged the floorpan in our old juniors rally car. Tends to be that when you are 15yo and get the hand-me-down rally car you dont have any money for luxuries like underbody protection. The most we had was a 5mm thick steel sump plate.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 07:47
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| Cool1 wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 17:10 |
| Redwarf wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 14:24 |
Edit: Deleted most of the message due to the fact that arguing on the internet is a pointless excerise, however:
As for....| Quote: |
But if you want to start talking about under body strength to stop the above causing damage, maybe you should be looking at some under body protection
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Thanks, I can't imagine how I've been competing all these years without it.
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So you have under body protection, but you have trouble with damaging floor pans Yeah ok...pffft
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Look, I've tried to be nice, but lets face it, your extensive rallying background comes from where?
[Updated on: Sun, 15 May 2005 08:44]
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 08:54
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| takai wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 17:34 |
| Cool1 wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 17:10 |
| Redwarf wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 14:24 |
Thanks, I can't imagine how I've been competing all these years without it.
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So you have under body protection, but you have trouble with damaging floor pans Yeah ok...pffft
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No, im the one who has damaged the floorpan in our old juniors rally car. Tends to be that when you are 15yo and get the hand-me-down rally car you dont have any money for luxuries like underbody protection. The most we had was a 5mm thick steel sump plate.
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Your cool mate. Its the other dork with the mysterious underbody protection that doesnt do a damm thing.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 09:14
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All good. Back to topic..
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 09:31
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ok i have an issue to raise
what is the consensus about the road worthyness of mr poprivet's car when it goes for its next blueslip?
has he effectively turned his car into an unroadworthy hunk of steel?
looking at the pic of the strut tower i can almost feel the rust forming under those rivets *shudder*.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2005
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:37
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Nah ninja86 lives in Adelaide *sigh* where again there are no compulsory slips 
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Location:
ADL
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 22:19
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why the sigh?
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Banned user
Location:
Liverpool NSW
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Sun, 15 May 2005 22:47
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speaking of mig welder's, im going to need one for a week, can someone lend me there's, ill pay cash!!
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Location:
cambo
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Seam riveting an AE86
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Mon, 16 May 2005 06:33
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| ninja_86 wrote on Mon, 16 May 2005 08:19 |
why the sigh?
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probably cause it means there are thousands of super-dodgy cars getting around.
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