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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 02:24
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hi guys, ive been seacrching all morning and havent found much solid answers.
what im asking is:
what modifications would be required to run 12,15,18 psi safely?
what setups are beeing used out there today? and what kind of power figures are u looking at?
obviously the more boost, the more wear and tear, but what setup are you using as your daily drivers?
prefer answers based on a st165 gt4, but any input is much appreciated.
thanks in advance.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 02:32
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for higher boost , and reliability , look at 3 or so areas - Fueling , headgasket , clutch , Turbo upgrade
for low boost around 12 PSI - youll defenatly have to look at a FCD at least - though expect your headgasket to complain after a while
Clutch will start to slip if you have a stock one at anything over stock boost so you may need to upgrade that too
Anything more than 12psi you start looking at things such as aftermarket management , intternal strengthening of the engine , and the need for a greater capacity fuel pump and injectors.
turbo wise the limit on these are debatable - youll def' need steel internals for anything over 14 PSI as the ceramic coating on them ( non oz spec or group a ct26 i mean ) will start to de laminate ..
usual fix is upgrade your turbo wirth either something aftermarket - or highflw the ct26 using a to4 wheel and supra compressor ( or something like that )
Mines an extreme end of example - but it will be able to handle upwards to 25 PSI with new turbo without much fuss
power figures is a dirty big variable - no one can say that X combination of parts will yield Y results - though with more ( around 16 - 18psi boost, better fuelling and a dcent head gasket - over 140 - 150 KW without much fuss at the wheels ( big guess here from other results ive seen )
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 03:56
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The ST165 already has steel-wheeled CT26 turbine so you don't need to worry about upgrading that until you look at pretty high boost figures, I'm not sure on exact numbers but 17psi would be quite a bit for the standard CT26 and your inlet temps would be pretty high by that point!
Headgasket must be changed for anything above about 10 psi  Copper head gasket (try Ridgecrest) combined with o-rings in the head/block or a metal head gasket (available from lotsa places, TRD etc) will suffice.
The ST165 pistons are pretty lame, I think there is weakness in the factory cast and they tend to crack when the boost goes up, anything above about 12 psi and you should look at new forged pistons.
One thing that I would DEFINITELY look at with the ST165 in particualr (when upping the boost) is the factory intercooling system, and even a remote oil-cooler kit would be a good idea. The water temps frequently went up on my car on warm days when i had it under load (going up a 10% gradient hill at 100km/h for about ten minutes for example). There is too much heat in the engine bay partly because there is no ventilation for the heat in the engine bay, and partly because the factory cooling system is not sufficient.
Look at getting some kind of heat out of the engine bay and definitely look at either a bigger heat exchanger for the water-to-air system, or alternatively ditch the water-air system and try to squeeze a bigger front mount air-air intercooler in. If you stick the front mount air-air in though you are DEFINITELY going to have to think about air flow in the engine bay.
Currently I'm looking at new pistons and a copper head gasket for my car and because I can't afford a better fueling system nor intercooling sticking it at about 11 or 12psi. You will be getting pretty high injector duty cycle at about 200hp (at the flywheel) and they will be pretty much be maxed out at 220hp. That translates to about 110kw at all four paws for 80% duty cycle (normal) and about 120kw at all four paws for 90% duty cycle (friggin high!).
I'm expecting around about 100-105kw at all paws with my set up. Of course, on a hot day that will drop off ridiculously
Oh and in regards to clutch - my clutch has endured a few 6000rpm launches and is still okayish Doesn't slip at all. But I haven't put much more power through it yet so I can't tell how it'll hold up to any big modifications.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 04:04
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Oh - and just a tip regarding getting heat out of the engine bay!
Get rid of the factory dump pipe! And get the exhaust manifold and dump pipe ceramic coated....you really need to keep as much heat as possible IN the exhaust gases so they bugger off out the exit of the car rather than conducting and radiating heat from things like the manifold, turbo and dump pipe.
Moving things around at the front might also be a good idea, the turbocharger has a water feed to it and this obviously causes the radiator temp to rise, so the radiator really needs to be up to the task and that means getting good air flow to it!
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 04:21
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Mine runs about 12PSI (0.85hkpa) daily... and thats measured at the intake manifold not the turbo compressor!
I don't know what you boys are doing with your headgaskets!
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 04:38
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i run 12psi all day everyday and i give it a fair bit of punishment and have not yet had a problem but i think 14psi - 16 is more the barrior for changing the h/g but everyone has different ideas depending on how the engine etc has been treated before u purchased it
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 05:25
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for those that have done these sorta modifications, what costs are u looking at?
i wouldnt be changeing the turbo for anything much bigger, but the intercooler is a good idea i believe.
getting head gaskets done is damn well expensive too, but i can see that it would be a good idea.
i had no idea u would need to to rip out the internals for such low boost? headgasket maybe, but i thought toyota tough internals would take a bit more of a beating.
how much are we looking at for FMIC setups? aftermarket management would be a definet on my list when the money arrived. is there a reccomended computer for the 3sgte?
obviously id rather avoid rebuilding the engine with stronger internals cause thats straigh out gona cost an arm and a leg!!
thanks guys.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 07:00
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Headgasket changing isn't that expensive, it might cost $200-$300 to get a copper head gasket, and maybe $80 to get the head o-ringed, provided you can take the head off yourself (not that hard with the engine in the car, even easier with the engine dropped out) then you are looking at about $400 and approx. 4 hours of your own labour (depending how quick you are at getting head off).
The reason I'm changing the head gasket is for future proofing, I'm hoping that someone on these forums will buy my car when it's done and I expect that the knowledge that it's ready for more boost (internally) will be a good sales pitch
That and I might be trying to get my hand on some 550cc injectors thus upping the boost will again be possible 
Aftermarket ECUs for Gen 1's (ST165 motor) is limited to swapping over for a replacement aftermarket programmable ECU, or using a SAFC or FCD to get limited improvement. So you can either spend a little bit (SAFC/SAFC-2), or you can spend bucketloads (on Microtech or Motec etc). I think Wolf3D might also be looking into this one (or is it limited to Gen 2 motors?).
Front mount intercooler set ups? Possibly lots and lots...ask StuC seeing as he's doing this one on his ST185 - you could get an idea from there, although it'd probably be even more annoying and expensive in an ST165 as there isn't room for a bee's nads in the engine bay. Then you have to consider how on earth you are going to get good airflow to the intercooler!
Rebuilding with stronger internals is going to cost an arm and a leg, but I've heard from many reliable sources that the pistons aren't up to the task when the boost is upped (this is all in relation to the Gen 1 motor out of the ST165, i hear that ST185 pistons aren't alot better). One other thing to consider is you don't know how good the condition of a second hand motor is, and it can go bang quickly if you give it a hard go (that means driving crazy like me, or making mods to the engine to get more power out of it) so sometimes pulling the engine apart and making sure everything is in perfect nick is a good idea before you start going bonkers.
I will admit that I can (and do) drive quite hard on occasion, and that's why the engine needs to be really up to scratch (read : tough). You can get away with 15psi of boost on a relatively stock engine (improved fueling and intercooling system). But it won't take prolonged punishment, maybe a bit of a squirt of the throttle every now and then, but I would definitely *baby* the engine, which makes having all those mods kinda pointless
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 08:33
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Steve, you mean take a look at Classique's (another Stu) 185/205 Gt4/Grp A huybrid.Check his threwad in general convo as he's been fitting a massive FMC over the last god knows how long.He'll be able to point you in the right direction for good service,prices and tips on fitting shit in.
good luck with it all
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On Probation
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2005
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 09:15
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www.alltrac.net
www.mr2oc.com <--- mr2 related, but they share the same engine
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:08
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once again ill point out costs from me are prolly not a good thing - mines been the extreme end of getting things done with pretty much no expense spared so far ..
for my engine rebuild alone - and swap - plus a few other goodies - the dollar amount equals or is greater than what you prolly paid for your st165 in total ... Ill freely admit im not a genious when it comes to mechanics but i am learing bit by bit that i attempt to do myself on this car - I left the major stuff to experts who can provide warranties + backup
i can point you to what ive done so far myself with good results ( ie the rear mounted battery , and current front mount in progress ) and where ive talked to but yeah - people would probably consider me mad for what ive had done to the grey thing for so little road time so far and the bill thats come with it..
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:28
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how much do u think u could get a decent front mount setup for?
i think a decent rebuild for an engine would be lookin at 5k easy. parts and labour anyways.
how does the standard gearbox's hold up? ive heard som say they are indestructable, others say they are now good. can i do a 4000rpm dump clutch launch with no problems in a resonably stock car (exhaust, clutch, 15" wheels) and expect for my gearbox to hold up?
how bout a 6000rpm drop?
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:37
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Try it and find out - if it breaks then you know it wasnt strong enough
front mount well you can buy a generic core for about 400 these days - or a named one for about 800
piping is an arse to make up but if you know people in the trade , it makes things easier ..
ive used silicon bends for aboult half of my setup mainly because they are a bit more forgiving in angles - and recycleable too ..
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sun, 15 May 2005 14:45
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StuC -> haha , wrong stuart ey  yeah i meant Classique71
GT4 gearboxes are very strong, I already mentioned above I've done a few 6000rpm launches and haven't had any troubles with the box yet.
Classique71 -> Yeah you are mad mate, hurry up and drive the thing dammit! I bet I have my ST165 back together before you got your thing on the road (actually the odds are stacked heavily in your favour on that one).
Decent engine rebuild will not cost 5K, I've got offers (vague ones) of around 2K for a standard ole' rebuild of the engine (rings, seals, gaskets, bearings - not turbo reco though, that'd be 600 on it's own).
berad -> how big a front mount can you fit in an ST162/ST165 without modification, and secondly, do you have any way quantifiable measure of how much it reduces the radiators effectiveness? Did you hafta fiddle with the aircon at all?
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Mon, 16 May 2005 07:26
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i took the air con out... but it would fit in with air con... ive got a 600x300x75 core behind the front bar no cuting nothing... ill take some fotos tomoro, ive had no problems with overheating , althoguh i have a thermo fan runnin all the time but, it never overheats and i give the engine a fair bit of punishment
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 02:57
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cool, photos would be really good thanks.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 03:15
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Dear god, why is the headgasket on the mighty 3SGTE so crap? This is the only Toyota engine other than the 7M of course where people are changing the headgasket to run such low boost!?
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 08:21
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im guessing materials at the time - the age of 7m and 3sgte basically line up when they were produced - im guessing toyota bought in shit gasket material and didnt research the torque settings of headbolts enough ..
otherwise outside of that do you see any 7m's or 3s's starting to really complain ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 08:25
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4AGZE's, 3TGTE's and 1GGTE's are all of a similar age or older age and aren't prone to the same weakness? 
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 08:57
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hmms who knows then ..
i still think its a generation issue
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 09:27
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small price to pay if u ask me.... couple of hundred bucks..... beter than replacing the engine internals...
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 12:42
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so u rekon the first things to go on the 3sgte are the head gaskets? apparently a good set of arp bolts or something are a good idea too?
would it be a good idea to get a 3sgte O-ringed?
after the head gasket, what is the next weakest thing in the 3sgte? is it the conrods/pistons?
i rekon u should be able to get away with say 12-14 psi, with a good tune on an aftermarket computer, FMIC, and headgasket.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 16:02
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Conrods are quite good, haven't heard of many people complaining about them getting thrown outside the block, but I can't say what their limit would be either.
If you read my posts then you'd notice that I mentioned the Gen 1 pistons suck (that's what you would have with an ST165, which is what you asked about in your first post?) - so yeah best to have a look at them when upping the boost.
You only have to o-ring the block or head if you plan on using a copper head gasket....a metal head gasket does not need an o-ring (use the search function to learn more about this) and o-rings on standard head gaskets may not be a good idea.
FMIC is not the cheapest option if you want better cooling for your engine - fitting a larger heat exchanger is a better option (if you ask me), and also fiddling with the structure of the front bar or bonnet to get better air flow.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Tue, 17 May 2005 16:11
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Oh - a few more things to consider Hahaha - I don't stop do i???
14psi is getting up there in terms of maxing out the factory injectors, especially if you are measuring from downstream of the intercooler - the factory injectors are only 440cc - you *can* improve their flow rate by increasing the fuel pressure (probably get to about 460cc before things get testy). However the factory ECU won't really be able to compensate for the change in flow rate of the injectors very well so your chances of tuning it well and getting good power is pretty ambiguous. Best to get aftermarket management at this stage if you are finding that the thing is struggling to get good A/F ratios on the dyno.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Wed, 18 May 2005 14:43
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What injectors/ECU are you running? What dyno setup was it etc? You got figures on fuel injector duty cycle etc? How much boost are you running?
I'm not going to try and give you any stick, but there is probably a big difference between the way I drive my cars and the way you drive your cars There is a reason my cars are off the road a fair bit and that's because I struggle to keep up with the wear and tear on them because I'm a lowly pizza maker bitch and have low income....  And every now and then I give a car a seriously good go. Wear and tear is caused by stress on the engine components, you can stress standard components if you like just by driving hard - or you can stress them by not taking care of the engine properly (as a few previous owners of my cars had) or by modifying the car's state of tune (ie upping boost etc).
Note - no engine that I have rebuilt has ever blown up even when given a helluva go because I make sure to do things properly and keep them in good shape afterwards. It's only when I'm given a pre-thrashed engine that they die a peasants death 
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Thu, 19 May 2005 08:34
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Ok after reading this entire thread... i must say. Instead of upgrading the dated Gen1 block. Why not update the whole package for a Gen2 (engine/gbox).
Gen1 block really is limited. Poor cooling, Rather weak bottom end, shitty flowing head, as compared to a Stock Gen2 block.
Get yourself a halfcut, pull the engine out, uprate the headgasket and the clutch while its out, install it. Fiddle with the wiring (not hard, and this guy www.gtfour.ca documents it for you) and tada, you end up with a much better setup from the get go.
Also, don't refer to boost levels as any measure of power. Whats stopping me from installing a T66 and running 12psi thru that. I garuntee the block won't last long... You should be refereing to Cylinder pressure instead.
Just my 2cents worth.
[Updated on: Thu, 19 May 2005 21:01]
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Thu, 19 May 2005 14:12
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What's so bad about the Gen 1 blocks 'cooling'? The water galleys etc are exactly the same as the Gen 2. Did they ever use the Gen 2 air-to-air intercooler when rallying? Only when Toyota FORCED TTE to, and even then ST165s were being used occasionaly in 1992 (until the CS edition ST185 came out). And what makes you think the Gen 2 block is any different anyway? The 'rather weak bottom end' you refer to also wasn't changed for the Gen 2. In fact the bottom end is just as strong on both - the only weakness is that the #1 big end bearing can go very quickly when starved of oil (pick-up related issues, again not solved with the Gen 2), or if the oilways lose efficiency (blocked or otherwise).
And the 'shitty flowing' head....well that's open to debate as well, sure the head doesn't flow that amazingly - and they certainly hunt down low, but the intake manifold is more to blame for any issues related to power up top.
As for running the CT66 and killing the block, i can't comment on that because I'm not clued in as to what spec the CT66 is - are you inferring that the CT66 is inefficient at 12psi and heats up the intake charge?
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Thu, 19 May 2005 21:46
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Ok first mistake that i made was calling a T66 turbo a CT66.... My bad. T66 being a 700hp turbo that would flow shitloads more at 12psi then your humble CT26.
And in your previous statement about 'the gen1 is as good as the gen2' i will point out where your contradicting yourself.
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Headgasket must be changed for anything above about 10 psi
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The gen2 has a different designed head (introduced better ribbing) and headgasket which reduced this problem. Gen2's are known to hold out until around 22psi of 'boost' pressure until they let go. But are common to let go on older blocks around the 14psi area. The heads differ in the valve area. The Gen2 having more lift. Any upgrades to the Gen1 valve area requires new springs and head modifications to make it work.
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The ST165 pistons are pretty lame, I think there is weakness in the factory cast and they tend to crack when the boost goes up, anything above about 12 psi and you should look at new forged pistons.
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If you read my posts then you'd notice that I mentioned the Gen 1 pistons suck (that's what you would have with an ST165, which is what you asked about in your first post?) - so yeah best to have a look at them when upping the boost.
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The gen2 with an uprated Metal Headgasket has been known to survive upto 200awkw before letting go and thats reliably as well. This is around 21psi on a highflow. Depending on trim of course. Show me a ST165 that has done that.
The pistons and the bottom end are quite sturdy, your saying quite the opposite about the Gen1.
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One thing that I would DEFINITELY look at with the ST165 in particualr (when upping the boost) is the factory intercooling system, and even a remote oil-cooler kit would be a good idea. The water temps frequently went up on my car on warm days when i had it under load
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The gen2 has a different oil cooling system, and you will also find that the blocks are different. The ATA intercooler system was used until TTE complained to Toyota about the bonnet lifting the front of the car at highspeeds, hence why we got the CS a) as a special model b) to reduce this problem by using a more efficient WTA intercooler.
The oil pump on the Gen1 was inferior, as it was updated in the Gen2 with a higher flowing pump.
NOW... after saying all that, lets bring everything back down to earth. We arn't top high dollar rally teams. So lets face the reality.
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Currently I'm looking at new pistons and a copper head gasket for my car and because I can't afford a better fueling system nor intercooling sticking it at about 11 or 12psi.
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Gen 1 block is dated. Its old, and you could spend the money rebuilding it. Better pistons, better oil system (using gen2 pump) rebuild the head with better cams and valves etc... To do what the gen2 does STOCK...
OR
you can kill 2birds with the one stone.
Replace the engine/drievtrain package as Ive suggested already. Half the price, and you get the slightly better gearbox to boot. The already good flowing head. The better oil cooling system. The Better ECU, i'd argue the better ATA system (unless it was a groupA halfcut). The better turbo. All round, a better engine.
I know which one i would do.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 02:57
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heres some cooler pics , this cooler is purely wank factor so u dont need any bigger its a 600mmx300mm core
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 03:13
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sorry to bug u, but can u take pics of ur pipeing?
also pics of how it looks from a meter or so back from the front bar?
very interested in the pipeing specifications, where u had it done, how much it costed, etc.
PM me if dont wana post it, thanks.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 03:17
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Okay first thing, when I say bottom end sometimes I'm not including pistons in that equation - this is my fault because I do realise that I should include the pistons in any comment regarding the bottom end - I will concede (obviously) that the gen 2 pistons are better than the gen 1 pistons, but aside from that the bottom end is just as strong in either - including oil starvation issues with #1 big end bearing.
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The gen2 has a different designed head (introduced better ribbing) and headgasket which reduced this problem. Gen2's are known to hold out until around 22psi of 'boost' pressure until they let go. But are common to let go on older blocks around the 14psi area.
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What you mean is that the older *head* not the older 'block'. All this talk about 'block' is getting to me, what you mean by 'block' is usually the 'whole engine'. When I say block I mean the lump of iron that has four holes in it for pistons and a few other things. Not the head + turbo + manifolds + everything else....the blocks are for all intents and purposes (aside from oil pump and maybe the water pump) identical.
As for the better oil cooling system on the Gen 2 'block' - I presume you mean it has some kind of remote oil cooling - or that the engine's water cooling system is more efficient (ie the radiator)? The Gen 1 has no oil cooling system at all - all of it's oil cooling is done via the water cooling system of the engine. If you could elaborate on this I'd be appreciative! I'm only here to learn - if I'm wrong (which isn't unusual - )
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The heads differ in the valve area. The Gen2 having more lift. Any upgrades to the Gen1 valve area requires new springs and head modifications to make it work.
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Depends what upgrades you are talking about Yes, it is a bit of extra work to get as much HP out of a Gen 1 head as you would get out of a Gen 2 head, but I'm talking about economical modifications - which I will get to in a minute.
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The gen2 has a different oil cooling system, and you will also find that the blocks are different.
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How so? I don't have the money to go out and look at the differences between the two but from my experience with looking at 3S-GE's (non turbo) from gen 1 and gen 2 is that the 'blocks' are both identical (bar the fact that 3S-GTEs have oil squirters etc). I *have* noticed however that at approximately late 1993 Toyota made some changes to the block - I'm not sure whether this popped up in the CS edition or the SW20 MR2 but I'm 90% confident that in at least the first two years of production the cast for the ST185 block is the same. I'm open to correction on this because, as I said, I'm not big with money and don't have the resources to check all of these out.
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The oil pump on the Gen1 was inferior, as it was updated in the Gen2 with a higher flowing pump.
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Changing over the oil pump is not a huge deal, and I'd love to get my hands on one from a Gen 2 if they actually are a higher flow unit - as this was an area i was looking to improve upon with my car.
Anyway, in regards to getting a Gen 2 and fitting that, and it being "half the cost" - I utterly reject that. Fitting some new pistons and upgrading the head gasket and head studs are all the modifications you need to do to the internals of a Gen 1 to get it ready for some 'serious' boost. That's never going to cost as much as getting a Gen 2 and fitting a metal head gasket and installing it (and if you must, the manifolds and ECU, which may not even fit in the ST165's engine bay). Even if you sell the Gen 1 motor afterwards.
Let alone the fact that if you buy the air-to-air intercooling system you have to bugger around with your bonnet to get any decent intercooling.
Sure if you are looking to the very far flung future with your engine and you want to get even more horsepower out of it later, you *might* want to think about biting the bullet and sticking the gen 2 or gen 3 engines in, but in reality the difference at this low end of the performance scale doesn't justify the cost (ie 200-300hp at the flywheel). Any car running 200kw @ the wheels is going to have some SERIOUS modifications (ie ECU, fueling, intercooling etc) and really isn't a useful comparison.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 03:19
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cost me 750 includin the cooler but i got m8s rates
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 03:23
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rwd boy where u get a forged rebuild for 1500 bucks id love to know im down for a 1500 dollar forged rebuild
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 15:33
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Berad -> Well I D.I.Y. all labour etc - so aside from finding a set of forged pistons (not interested in forged conrods yet as I won't be keeping this car long anyway) it's not going to be that expensive. Probably 700-800 depending what I can find.
Dude judging by those pictures, I'd be thermal wrapping the wires near the alternator just for safety's sake man - will save you a lot of hassle later on if you do it now rather than letting 'em melt!
The ST165 actually has an air scoop that goes all the way from the splash guards up to the bottom of the alternator to cool it off! So yeah, it gets hot man, just warning ya!
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Fri, 20 May 2005 23:03
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RWDBoy -> Here are some pictures for you, mull them over, and compare them to a Gen1.
Head: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/removed. JPG
The Head... the extra ribbing is evident by the surrounds of the spark plugs. The Gen1 doesn't have these. Also changes around the cams and obviously the springs and valves for the higher lifting stock cams. I'm chasing up the flow data for both stock heads, gotta find my resource again.
Oil Cooler: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/oilcoole r.JPG
This is the oil cooler on a Gen2. Its much more efficient then the one found underneath the manifold on the Gen1.
Pistons: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/pistons- l-r.JPG
Really a null point since u've said that the Gen1 pistons are inferior... unlike what you were implying before.
Crank: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/crankrem ove.JPG
Now the changes in this area are the larger oil feed holes. Also the bearings i believe (i ahve to double check this with the ACL bearing guide) are wider.
Block: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/nakedblo ck.JPG
The naked block, I'm chasing up pictures to compare to the Gen1 block. We'll get back to this.
OilPump: http://ugbox.net/~lance/GT4/Repair/Engine/oilpump. JPG
This is a Gen2 oil pump. Nothing notably evident in this picture, but if you flip it over, there is a larger recess made for the higher flowing pump.
Now, Aside from the engine, lets look at all the other support systems.
-The intake manifold is much the same, the Gen2 having a larger plenum. A minor difference.
-The Gen2 uses sidefeed injectors as opposed to the Gen1 top feed injectors.
-The Gen2 has the twin entry turbo, the Gen1 has the single entry. Not a major difference, mainly in spool speeds.
Now, the breakdown for the rebuild.
-Forged pistons $900 (or if you look around, they sell 2nd hand for $200...)
-oil pump is $150
-water pump is $150
-Seal kit from toyota (or another source for 1/3 the price) $300
-O-Ring each cylinder is around $100 each
-Copper headgaskets, are around $200 (i think, i went MLS for $160)
-Bearings is around $200
Its adding up, even with trade discounts, it isn't gonna be under the $1500 rebuild budget. Even if you went with Gen2 pistons, they are $150 each from toyota(trade).
Of course depending on how dodgy you want to be and what you reuse etc. I didn't account for a head being rebuilt in there. So it'd be more again.... No labour either. No machining workin there either, so probably a few hundred bucks in labour as well.
To me, a swap to a Gen2 is a much better idea. Gen2 halfcuts can be had from around the $1500-2500 bucks depending on condition of course or who you know. Upgrade the headgasket and head studs (thats around $400) and pop it all in. It does fit in the ST165, this guy has done it and documented it. http://www.gtfour.ca/howtoswap.html
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sat, 21 May 2005 01:36
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Lance -> although I'm coming across as confrontational I'm very eager to *learn* here rather than just argue for arguments sake. As such I'm really glad you posted those pics up and are willing to go thru these things with me.
I haven't had a chance to look, but I think there is no oil cooler between the oil filter and the block on the Gen 1. I have, however, got one of those oil coolers lying around (or something similar, I will check on that later today). I got it off of a 5S-FE engine that was at a U-Pull-It - so that's certainly NOT an expensive item to get a hold of.
Having said that, I am definitely not a clever cookie cause I couldn't figure out what it was until you showed me that picture
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Really a null point since u've said that the Gen1 pistons are inferior... unlike what you were implying before.
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Look I SAID that I made a mistake regarding not including the pistons in my statements about the bottom end. It was not an IMPLICATION that the pistons were just as good, it was simply a lack of good communication on my part.
The conrods look different between gen 1 and gen 2 as well - but I've still yet to hear anyone complaining about the Gen 1 conrods strength, maybe there is some hp (rpm) or reliability to be gained through the design of the gen 2 but I still wouldn't be looking at changing conrods unless I was trying to get REALLY big hp out of a Gen 1 engine.
Crank looks the same except those oil feeds do look large compared to my memory of the ones out of my Gen 1. I might be tempted to hazard a guess that this would help with the issues of big end bearing's picking up but I'm not sure if it's actually an oil-flow related issue that causes problems (ie restriction to flow in the crank) or if it's related to the path of the oil through the block - I'm not going to judge either way on that one.
Of those costs you list, only 3 *really* need to be taken into account for the sake of argument, and that is the pistons, oil pump and maybe if you like the water pump. And no Gen 2 engine is going to fall into your lap for less than the cost of those components. Most engines around the place, even non-rebuilt can cost up to $2000, and I should know - I hunted around like mad at importers and wreckers when my Gen 1 blew up looking for a Gen 2 to replace it. Of course, you can sell the Gen 1 that you now have spare to recoup some cost.
The reasons that I'm dismissing the cost of the other components (for the sake of argument) is that if I were to stick a Gen 2 engine into my car then chances are it would need just as much of a rebuild as most Gen 1 engines out there, ie bearings, seals, gaskets, maybe even piston rings and boreing/honing etc.
Basically, you could spend up to $900 on forged pistons for a gen 1, or you could buy a gen 2 and sell the gen 1 and end up spending $1000 to get a similar result (although pistons won't be as good, but there are other benefits as you will know about and I am trying to learn about).
Anyway, whatever it's all up to the individual choice.
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sat, 21 May 2005 04:49
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RWDboy -> I don't wanna come across as a know it all either. But its when you start throwing around opinion as fact (im not saying you were) that kinda ticked me off a bit.
Nothing beats hard pictorial proof. With all that said i hope the thread starter gets an understanding of both sides of the story here.
YES - i will agree that the conrods and crank are upto the task and will hold lots of power, both comparables in the Gen1,2 but the little mechanical differences in and around certain areas were there to prevent problems. Otherwise we wouldn't have a Gen2 or Gen3 motor then.
In terms of making lots and lots of power, then rebuilding the gen1 motor for your needs, you could do that sure. Or you just want a newer engine, then go the Gen2.
In the end, its each there own. Its the same as putting a Gen3 in my car and then upgrading it... The outlay costs more. But in the same sense spending the money on a Gen2 motor and rebuilding it for power (which i've done) makes sense cause once you get around the crazy power figures, it doesn't really matter
Meh whatever, my head hurts.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sat, 21 May 2005 13:11
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| -==L=a=N=c=E==- wrote on Sat, 21 May 2005 09:03 |
Now, the breakdown for the rebuild.
-Forged pistons $900 (or if you look around, they sell 2nd hand for $200...)
-oil pump is $150
-water pump is $150
-Seal kit from toyota (or another source for 1/3 the price) $300
-O-Ring each cylinder is around $100 each
-Copper headgaskets, are around $200 (i think, i went MLS for $160)
-Bearings is around $200
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The other stuff people should consider are:
Acid bath
Headstuds
Welsh plugs
Bores machined
Block linished
Head resurfaced
Toyota sump goo
Assorted loctite products
Valve shims
Optional:
Linish & balance the crank
Die grind out a few of those casting marks in the ports
Replace the valves
Replace the valve guides if there is play
Replace the valve springs if they are out of spec
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Sat, 21 May 2005 13:45
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Toobs: i did say later on that i didn't mention anything about machine work. But thanks for expanding that for everyone
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Thu, 23 June 2005 14:37
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Hey Lance did you ever find out if the bearings were wider for the Gen 2 motor than the Gen 1?
Luckily I have a gen 2 long motor in my shed atm....once I have got some other jobs out of the way (and finally buy an engine hoist) I will compare every detail of the Gen 1 to the Gen 2 so we can get some good facts/info (which is what we are all after anyway)
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: GT4 modification and performance ...
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Thu, 23 June 2005 21:34
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RWDboy: I havn't bothered to look to be honest. I'll wait and see what your finding tell us.
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