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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 09:41
 
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ive got a feeling someone on www.mr2oc.com has sone this conversion to a whipple type charger. sorry i cant be of more help/.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 10:22
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http://lists.mr2sc.com/pipermail/mr2sc/Week-of-Mon -20020930/015514.html
some 4th hand knowledge
| Quote: |
[mr2sc]4AGZE with Lysholm does exist
Alexei Chipovalov AlexeiC@versonix.com
Mon, 30 Sep 2002 14:43:42 -0700
Previous message: [mr2sc]Lysholm talk (Possible kit!)
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Hi everybody,
Finally I found the guy who has lysholm on his 4AGZE!
He does serious racing in Australia. His car is "PRB"
(Lotus-7 style). His name is John Moyes. He wrote:
"Firstly, you have found the right person as my PRB started life with a
factory 4A-GZE, but now has an Autorotor screw compressor. A new engine is
a couple of months away based on a 7A block stroked to 1900cc with a small
port 16 valve head, but with a much larger compressor.
The 1600cc engine is fitted with an OA 2076 delivering 16psi of boost via an
air-to-air intercooler. High-lift mild duration cams deliver 195ftlb at
5000rpm and 225bhp at 7500rpm on avgas. The bottom end of the engine is
standard although the rods are peened and ARP bolts are fitted to the
bearing caps. The head has had the most work done to the exhaust ports
which have been enlarged as much as possible. Inlets are only polished.
The engine has not failed in 4 years of serious racing, but was "freshened
up" after 2 years. The Autorotor is probably one size too small as I run it
up to nearly 20,000rpm at peak engine speed, which is 30% above its
recommended maximum. In spite of this, the compressor has worked perfectly
at all times.
The new engine will use a small-port 4-valve head fitted with big exhaust
valves an OA 3133/2.0 to deliver 21psi and is expected to deliver 280-300bhp."
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My comments:
1)As you see, Autorotor is very reliable.
2)Autorotor OA-2076 model John used on 4AGZE is just 0.76L
(he mentioned it was undersized).
3)0.76L at 20,000rpm is close to 1.33L at 11,000rpm, so
at 13,000rpm 1.33L SC should make 4AGZE to deliver about 265bhp
and 300hp at 15,000rpm (max continuous speed=13,000rpm).
4)As I already posted a while ago, I'm going to use OA-3133/2.0
(1.33L, 2.0 internal compression, same as John chose for his 7A project).
"DJJ"(David) from this list gave me the lead.
Tnank you David!
BTW, I talked with engineer from "Gates Rubber Company". Yes, it's
possible to transfer 70hp to the SC with 21mm width tooth belt, so
I need just SC, cranc, and water pump pulleys.
Does anybody have spare water pump pulley? I need to send it to tooth
pulley manufacturer to rework it for cog belt (or make replacement).
Cheers,
Alexei
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Location:
Canberra, ACT
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 10:36
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that sounds fecking awesome! give that man a hug!
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Location:
Batemans Bay, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 10:58
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I was thinkin this exact thing today.... (the possibilities of using alternate SC's on the 4agze,)
Sounds good though...... would definately like to hear from anyone who has done this also.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 11:00
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toof, would you kindly copy and paste the contents here? not all of us are members of MR2OC (although i have tried to register)
TIA 
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 11:56
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he has had *heaps* of greif with it. in the end he has given up and going gt28rs and trying to sell the charger gear.
there are heaps of pages so ive pdf'd them and up them up
http://members.iinet.net.au/~toof/whipple.zip
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:21
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This is something I gave some serious thought to myself, until I happened to come across a HKS turbo at a price I couldn't say no to... why must I be so easily influenced?
PD supercharging is much more of an art than people often presume, I do know that much - so often, people seem unable to make anything like the sort of power they wanted (top fuellers excepted...). Having said that, I haven't abandoned the idea altogether - I'm actually looking at doing something somewhat similiar with a different engine. If you have any deeper thoughts on this project however, do keep me informed 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:41
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cheers bigears 
ahh seems like he had it mounted wrong, lost the gear oil, and that was where the grief came from? any further updates past may 5th?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 12:47
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| mrshin wrote on Sun, 15 May 2005 22:21 |
PD supercharging is much more of an art than people often presume, I do know that much - so often, people seem unable to make anything like the sort of power they wanted (top fuellers excepted...).
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you've got that right.... toyota made it look simple the way they designed theirs... then again, anything is easy to design if you only idle and drive at WOT  it's the in betweeny bits that are hard
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Sun, 15 May 2005 23:41
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http://members.iinet.net.au/~toof/forsale.pdf
he wants to sell the SC gear. already bought a turbo in its place. i wanted to go down the path of a better charger but it really seems that a turbo is going to be a cheaper and in the end less hassle option. i cant find anyone with *positive* experience for a street car.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 05:59
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there are not many positive experiences because not many people have even tried, due to the high initial cost. i would discount the experiences of the guy you posted as he seemed happy with the way it worked, just not with the service Whipple provided..
there will always be bad service, but the lysholm PD SC is a proven design all the same...
i personally think a well thought out SC'd car will piss on a turbo car.. until the turbo car finally catches up
for all out dyno queen numbers, turbo is hard to beat, but for get up and go, from lights, roundabouts, or even PREDICTABLE drive out of corners, it's hard to go past an SC..
anyway, has anyone in toymods tried this as yet?
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 13:29
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u.s. miata guys have an unparalelled number samples of various 1.6/1.8 supercharger applications. You can read for days.
http://forum.miata.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=foru m;f=1
Here is one very impressive example of a common junkyard supercharger, overdriven to 21psi on a built 1.8L. Yes, it will eat most turbo setups alive.... all except for the monsters. Folks that took a test ride in that car piss'd themselves... and they own turbo miatas. hehe
http://www.biggulp.net
342 hp to the threads, with an unusual 310 ft-lbs tq coming on early
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 14:04
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true, i've read a fair few of their stories.. seems many still go for the roots type (eaton) SC, rather than a twin screw tho..
(ie, big gulp, jackson racing, BRP).. the FM ubercharger is a whipple, using the 1200.. to be honest the FM dyno tests look like they are well below their potential (ie 1.8L, 13psi could get around 340Nm max, but only gets 258 at 13psi), but then again, they are also going for emissions too..
420Nm from 1.8L and 21psi? thats possible...(437Nm max)
one would expect a PD SC to have near peak torque from as soon as the valve overlap allows.
to be honest the reason for considering a lysholm is so that you don't run out of revs at a piddly 7000 or 7500rpm....
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 14:47
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6/71, 8/71, etc. - 7000rpm still shifts a gale force breeze
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 15:15
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| mrshin wrote on Tue, 17 May 2005 00:47 |
6/71, 8/71, etc. - 7000rpm still shifts a gale force breeze
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you could almost fit a 4AG INSIDE one of those things
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Mon, 16 May 2005 21:56
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>>"to be honest the reason for considering a lysholm is so that you don't run out of revs at a piddly 7000 or 7500rpm.... "
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in that case, turbos got u covered.... or shift
>>"but for get up and go, from lights, roundabouts, or even PREDICTABLE drive out of corners, it's hard to go past an SC"
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I was under the impression, this was closer to what you're after... only more intense than 'normal'
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 00:54
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yeah ill agree the charger gives a great and very predictable feel. just having boost as soon as you stab the loud pedal is nice.
perhaps you would be better off looking for an ex facotry unit.. perhaps one of the merc ones ? not sure if they are roots though ?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 01:42
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| quest wrote on Tue, 17 May 2005 07:56 |
>>"to be honest the reason for considering a lysholm is so that you don't run out of revs at a piddly 7000 or 7500rpm.... "
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in that case, turbos got u covered.... or shift
>>"but for get up and go, from lights, roundabouts, or even PREDICTABLE drive out of corners, it's hard to go past an SC"
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I was under the impression, this was closer to what you're after... only more intense than 'normal'
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what do you mean 'turbo's have me covered'? it is a common misconception (due to roots style blowers) that you can't run high rpm with an SC. the smaller lysholm blowers can turn over 20,000rpm, and the ones i'm looking at turn 15,000rpm (but about 3000rpm more than i'd need)
turbos are ok, but they have their limitations, and for me, they are too limiting.
all i want is 300Nm in a car under 800kg.. is that too much to ask?
| toof wrote |
yeah ill agree the charger gives a great and very predictable feel. just having boost as soon as you stab the loud pedal is nice.
perhaps you would be better off looking for an ex facotry unit.. perhaps one of the merc ones ? not sure if they are roots though ?
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exactly, i want big engine performance out of something legal to fit into my car, whilst not having a turbo
the only factory ones i can think of are on the merc AMG65 thingy, or the mazda millenia?
i see no reason not to get a brand spanker that is perfectly sized, along with a range of pulleys to suit my taste
cost is really not that bad... for a whipple 1600AR, US$1640
http://www.whipplesuperchargers.com/product.asp?Pr odID=1162 similar price to a new turbo.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 05:06
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| Quote: |
PSE Superchargers also performs our high quality remanufacturing on the EATON Aftermarket Roots models, Opcon and Lysholm Twin-Screw superchargers. These two twin-screw compressors are commonly used by such quality system manufacturers as Kenne Bell, Whipple and others.
PSE Superchargers uses only the highest quality bearings and seals in all remanufacturing processes. High-Performance “port” work to increase airflow is also available. All twin-screw and roots repairs come with a Three Year Unlimited Mileage Warranty.
All aftermarket superchargers will need to be shipped to PSE for Remanufacturing and have a 4-day turn around. Many units with slight damage can still be repaired.
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that is a re-co price
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 05:27
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pfft fineprint. Knew there had to be a reason why they were so cheap 
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 05:31
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even still fro 1600US RRP and im surde you could hunt them down a shade cheaper then sticker price anyway they are comprably priced to a new turbo. either that or im sure you could find 2nd hand whipple units at a considerable saving.. probaly would be a heap eaiser if you had someone in the US to d othe leg work..
other option is that the US get a heap more facotry supercharged vehicles then we do here... possibly get another factory fitted type unit that we dont get here ? somehting in the 1.8L/rev range. even if its a roots the larger capacity would mean you wouldnt need to spin it as fast and run into the problems the roots units have ?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 06:08
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I think a 3300AR would be a *tad* too big for a 1UZ. I was thinking more along the lines of 1600AR or 2300AR for big boost (1bar+). Thats what I gathered from my 2 hours of research this arvo.
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Location:
u.s.a. south
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 15:34
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>>"to be honest the reason for considering a lysholm is so that you don't run out of revs at a piddly 7000 or 7500rpm.... "
>>"it is a common misconception (due to roots style blowers) that you can't run high rpm with an SC. "
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when "pushin' it", biggulp shifts at 8500-8900rpm.... that no good for you ?
>>"what do you mean 'turbo's have me covered'? "
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Sure, I'd stick to superchargers 'only* in their element.
In any situation where you find your rpms dancing between 4500-8000... you've now entered shark infested open waters - a $600 t3/t4 will walk away from whatever SC you chose, eh. Avoid that zone
>>"all i want is 300Nm in a car under 800kg.. is that too much to ask?"
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and I'm sure you'll accomplish that. Done your homework it seems
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: has anyone ACTUALLY used a lysholm/whipple style SC on a 4AGZE?
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Tue, 17 May 2005 22:04
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| quest wrote on Wed, 18 May 2005 01:34 |
when "pushin' it", biggulp shifts at 8500-8900rpm.... that no good for you ?
Sure, I'd stick to superchargers 'only* in their element.
In any situation where you find your rpms dancing between 4500-8000... you've now entered shark infested open waters - a $600 t3/t4 will walk away from whatever SC you chose, eh. Avoid that zone
>>"all i want is 300Nm in a car under 800kg.. is that too much to ask?"
--------------
and I'm sure you'll accomplish that. Done your homework it seems
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yeah, i'd say a regular 8500 shift is the aim. but the difference is that the lysholm chargers do it easy (and more efficiently, and suck less power) than roots.. no doubt big gulp will spin those speeds, but the difference in energy lost could be around 10-20kw (the lysholm _only_  takes 20kw to drive ti at that speed and pressure ratio)
yup, on race day i know a turbo would be preferable... but for a street driven car, what % of time is actually on the track? maybe one car will be turbo and the other SC
all depends on what the engineers find "acceptable" out of my chosen mods....
Cya, Stewart
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