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Location:
Perth
Registered:
August 2003
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4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 10:57
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just wondering what is on peoples minds about these things.
Personally i would like people to have a special license to use these or ban them from built up areas.
Why? People with little road experience crashing in one of these would cause more damage then a sedan or similar car and i wouldn't like to be in a crash with one of these hitting me.
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Club Member
Location:
Sydney, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:06
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I don't really think they need a special license for them, just need to limit sales and stop producing luxury 4WD's... They should go back to Landcruisers, Prado's, Patrols and Hummers only... All to be released in white so scratches don't really matter and should only be sold to ppl that will take them offroad...
Piss off all these Lexus', BMW's, Honda crap and so on...
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:07
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Hi,
It's still not enough to satisfy me 'cos I hate the bloody things with a passion.
Anyone who owns a large 4WD (ie larger than a RAV4) and lives in the city/suburbs should be slugged with the following....
- Expensive and extremely thorough license test, per annum
- Double the cost to buy
- Quadruple the rego cost
- Quadruple the insurance cost
- Charged double for petrol
- Pay an annual road usage tax
- Pay annual parking tax
- And I'm sure there's other things if I think about it 
Of course, all extra revenue gained should be injected back into our road system.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:11
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could not agree more!
theres nothing more scary than some bird in a massive 4wd
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:13
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i learnt to drive in one, a discovery. they are bigger, taller fatter driving cars then most others, i really think insted taking the easy way out they should TRAIN people in compulsary 4wd courses. this is like what they were talking about doing with p plates, banning night driving etc... seems the goverment is taking the easy way out again
my 2c
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Location:
Ipswich
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:13
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i reckon they should be taking extra training/testing for driving them cause most of the ones cruising around cities now are MASSIVE, and there was an appeal by some queensland MPs a while ago to ban bullbars on 4WDs in suburbian and built up areas  but i dont think it went ahead  they also wanted to bring in special licences for 4WDs, there was a huge article in the COurier Mail after someone got hit by one i think, but yet again i dont think it went everywhere, i cant stand them, usually only the ones that you just KNOW arent going of road, eg. road tires with bugger all gaps between treads, no stratches whatsoever, no mods. etc. and then of course its got four children and their parent riding init 
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:22
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mothers that cant even parrallel park shouldnt be allowed to drive 2 tonne trucks with leather interiors.
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Location:
Bathurst
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 11:23
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Well, we bought a brand new Prado about 6 mths ago and you know what - I agree.
I live in a regional area so its not so bad. But damnit it's so big and heavy. It handles like a boat and stops like one too - all with 175kw from quad cam V6 and 4 litres. Drinks the fuel as well.
The thing that worries me the most is that you can't see out of the back of it. Whenever I need to reverse I do a full walk around because I don't want to end on the news for running over my kids. Its so bad that I'm actually putting a camera and LCD in.
Its nice and new and shiny but give me my AE82 twinky any day.
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Registered:
December 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 12:34
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I believe you should have to pay more to register them and insure them and also the road usage tax that has been mentioned.
and also you should have to prove that you actually need one (i.e. will take it offroad) in order to buy one.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 12:59
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River for PM 
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 13:18
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L platers should be totally banned from using one of these for learning to drive, one mistake and you could take out a dozen people.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 13:21
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i was actually scared of it sometimes, by how long it takes to slow down etc. i have been to a few 4wd courses but not driving. i was in the cars and watched/listened to instuctors. thats what most people need.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Mon, 30 May 2005 13:55
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I think so, but i also think you should do a special licence for "faster" cars
would save alot of telegraph poles im sure
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 00:12
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I think only 4x4s meant for off road should be sold.
I can't understand why soccer mums need a 4x4 if they want safty in the wet buy a suburu.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 00:16
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or mazda 6 mps  
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 02:38
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The whole thing just stinks of a massive knee jerk reaction. It's stupid.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:08
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Well I have no problem with 4wds if the person who owns the vehicle has a good reason for owning it. For example how are farmers supposed to get round on there farms carrying loads there ideal or business like the company I work for theres no way a 2wd car do the same job of a 4wd. You have remember theres more too this country than just city and nice smooth roads. Around towns fair enough there not needed. But how much of Australia is taken up by towns compared to rural communities? If I head out west I'd rather be in a 4wd than a 2wd car epically when it comes to dusk when all the animals move out to the edge of the road for warmth and food. The thought of making people get special licenses is rather stupid next thing you will need is a special license for high performance cars then a license for cars over a certain age because there not built like modern cars. Get my point you start making special rules for a type of car you open a hole can of worms for other types of cars.
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Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:12
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Massive Knee Jerk Reaction???
You get run over or hit by one and see how much of a knee jerk you have.
Particularly when the drive isn't even capable of driving a normal car let alone a fucking tank.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:14
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we owned a 4wd for a number of years got with a family of six we needed it to cart us around and my dad doesn't liek van, not good for frontal impact. And the 4wd had more storage space and a better engine.
The point is you can't implement anything like this, cos one it'll be a breach of some civil liberties bull shit and two it would have to be means tested cos of genuine need of the vehicle for others.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:45
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its not a breech of civil liberties to prevent young drivers from driving at night ? or how about from driving fast cars ?
i think force people to have a heavy vehicle license.. as they do drive very differently to the average car... comparing the things to a commodore,falcon,magna,camry which is the *average* car on the road the difference between them is chalk and cheese. id like to see the C type (NSW) license max GVM dropped from 4.5Tonne to 2 tonne... meaning if you want to drive a truck.. and thats what they are.. you need a truck license and have to be tested/licensed accordingly. that dosent effect people in the bush or if you want to tow a boat, or you go off road, if you cant pass the licensing requirements to SAFELY conrtol the vehicle you shouldnt be on public road. 500kg car or 5000kg truck.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:49
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2 tonnes is a bit low don't you think, it rules out cars like the adventura which is not really a 4wd and even luxury cars like mercs etc. Remeber a BA Falcon Gt is pushing 1850kg so it ain't long before it'll hit 2 tonne.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:51
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| stradlater wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 13:12 |
Massive Knee Jerk Reaction???
You get run over or hit by one and see how much of a knee jerk you have.
Particularly when the drive isn't even capable of driving a normal car let alone a fucking tank.
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http://smh.com.au/articles/2005/05/26/111712986467 6.html
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...Confounding conventional wisdom that four-wheel-drives are the worst offenders, the results show that at the bottom of the listings, which rate the cars with the worst rearward vision, are the Holden Commodore sedan, Monaro coupe and Crewman utility as well as the Mercedes-Benz CLK500 coupe....
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hmm yep... knee jerk. Certainly not a new issue. Just brought to the publics attention because of the unfortunate events recently.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 03:52
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if you didn't realise rego already is dearer for 4wds its done by wieght ehnce being heavier its more expensive derr. But i think we should adopt an approach similar to the UK stuff weight go by emissions that'll teach em, drive a efficient car and be rewarded for it.
They do it by the amount of carbon dioxide the car emits at an average rate from the factory.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:00
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a two tonne car drives *VERY* differently to a 1tonne car. so its not unreasnable that you should have to have a different license.. it is TWICE the weight..
you have to have a very different firearms license if you want a .22 -v- .45 rifle do yuo not ?
perhaps making the *huge* overweight and hence fuel hungry cars harder to own/ less popular perhaps it will make car manufacturers rethink their fattening of cars...
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Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:02
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Ok then, Knee jerk it, but why do I see so many 4WD's being driven like fucking sports cars?
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:05
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| stradlater wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 14:02 |
Ok then, Knee jerk it, but why do I see so many 4WD's being driven like fucking sports cars?
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cos mazda advertises it as one 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:16
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I agree look a how they advertise cars they jump them race them also look at range rover there vouge range does 200+kph this does not have to be they should be full of torque and no speed.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:19
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 13:52 |
if you didn't realise rego already is dearer for 4wds its done by wieght ehnce being heavier its more expensive derr. But i think we should adopt an approach similar to the UK stuff weight go by emissions that'll teach em, drive a efficient car and be rewarded for it.
They do it by the amount of carbon dioxide the car emits at an average rate from the factory.
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AFAIK It is done by number of cylinders in QLD.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:32
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Well I was in my mate's car the other week when we WERE hit by a 4WD with a bullbar, ran a red light, our car was a write off. The woman driving could barely reach the pedels by my estimation :\
All I want is fair treatment across the board, if you can get defected for having a car too low, surely you should be able to be defected for having a 4WD too high. A head high bullbar? mmmmmm safe.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:43
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Hrm.
P plates: Need special testing done with note on your licence that you can't drive a 4WD if you don't do it - kinda like the manual/auto thing.
Full licence: Can drive 'em.
To own one: Extra testing and a permit issued (costs a bit). Also it would be more difficult / expensive to get one if you lived in the suburbs / inner city than if you lived in the sticks.
I appreciate that some people NEED 4WDs, and that they are usefull... just not on the streets.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:46
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P.S. What I love is that sports cars can't have popups any more due to danger to pedestrians... AND THEN THEY LET 4WDs with BULLBARS on the road... wtf? 
I also kinda agree with CrUZsida. More training and testing is required for everyone, not just 4WD owners. But I also think you should need a permit for a 4WD. Just to stop people who don't need them having them, as no matter how good you are, you'll be better in a smaller car as the nature of a 4WD is more dangerous than your average sedan. Big, heavy, bullbars, high. We have to assume accidents WILL happen no matter how good you are. So lets reduce the chance that you'll kill someone by putting you in a car that isn't as dangerous, unless you NEED one.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 04:53
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I agree with rolla boy
The best way to drastically reduce the numbers is to get rid of all the luxo ones and just sell poverty pack 4WDs, therefore the only people that will buy then are the ones who need them (like myself ) .
I can't imagine the normal Dalkieth family driving around in a White Troopy with vinyl floors, window winders and crappy seats. They would find another option like a people mover instead of buying the X5, Range Rover, Porche etc.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 06:06
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 14:40 |
FFS, doing ANYTHING like this is just ANOTHER bandaid solution.
You want the roads safer? TEACH PEOPLE HOW TO DRIVE PROPERLY.
MAKE THEM DO ADVANCE DRIVER TRAINING.
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I AGREE x 1 million
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 06:12
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I agree. It's like that old saying. put a fence at the top of a cliff instead of an ambulance at the bottom. people who cannot drive are still getting onto our streets. That is what is making it dangerous, not the type of car that they drive.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 06:42
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Hi,
Crying out that everyone should do an advanced driver training course is itself a bandaid solution and is not going magically make everyone super safe and all good drivers.
Accidents will still happen and people will still get hurt and killed on our roads. Advanced driver training isn't an instant or even long term fix and, on its own, provides only a partial solution.
Large 4WD, due to their mass and the height of their bumpers and bullbars is the main issue I have with them. I don't care if the driver has been to a 1,000 courses or not. It is the vehicle itself that is dangerous, cumbersome and unnecessary in a city and urban environment. I have no issues with rural folk who require 4WD to perform their tasks and livelihood.
Advanced driver training or not, some people just don't get it (like some people still drink & drive and a lot still sms/talk on the mobiles while driving, etc) and accidents occur and all the training in the world means nothing to some. So, remove the main issue, which is the large urban 4WD, or price it out of economic existence for urbanites. Sure, put people on the advanced driver training also, but don't think for one second that training alone is going to fix these problems.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 06:47
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however, aside from turning australia into a police-state (though.. NSW is getting that way) driver training has its merits.
If the issue here is driver training vs outlaw 4wds I would personally opt to have trained drivers
but that's my .02c and everyone is free to disagree
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:02
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River,
What make the trucks that deliver groceries to Woolies any safer?
How about the ones that deliver fuel to your local servo?
And the ones that deliver tyres to the tyre shops?
The list goes on.
The fact is that they are on the roads, and they will ALWAYS be on the road.
The best way to deal with it is to make sure people know ho wto drive in the first place.
Saying that that is a bandaid solution has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.
Gotta teach someone to walk properly before they can run
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:06
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| river wrote on Mon, 30 May 2005 21:07 |
Hi,
It's still not enough to satisfy me 'cos I hate the bloody things with a passion.
Anyone who owns a large 4WD (ie larger than a RAV4) and lives in the city/suburbs should be slugged with the following....
- Expensive and extremely thorough license test, per annum
- Double the cost to buy
- Quadruple the rego cost
- Quadruple the insurance cost
- Charged double for petrol
- Pay an annual road usage tax
- Pay annual parking tax
- And I'm sure there's other things if I think about it
Of course, all extra revenue gained should be injected back into our road system.
seeyuzz
river
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Couldn't have said it better myself!!
Plus the damn things hit ABOVE your side intrusion beams and other safety features, rendering them useless.
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:10
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| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:02 |
River,
What make the trucks that deliver groceries to Woolies any safer?
How about the ones that deliver fuel to your local servo?
And the ones that deliver tyres to the tyre shops?
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They serve a useful purpose! 4WDs used for dropping off the kids to soccer do not! Get a Tarago, or Odyssey etc if you can't wear a condom and have 5 kids to carry around!
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:14
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i once again say a van is not always as good in our circumstance the vans at the time had no windows that opened in the third row of seating for one. Second in frontal impacts vans are bad as they have no crumple zone space, my dad wouldn't buy one for this reason, vans have less loading space in the rear when fully occupied, many vans are underpowered with smallish 4cyl engines compared to a laden mass going on holidays.
Most vans at the time for some reason had sliding doors that opened on to the road not the path i mean wtf.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:16
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4wd's also give great line of sight in traffic so arguably even with longer stopping distances they should be able to spot a hazard up ahead and avoid it. I had a couple of lessons in our pajero and the vision was great, it wasn't that hard a car to drive.
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Location:
Bathurst
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:16
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I think the key here is ATTITUDE. That goes for any class of driver.
Realise that driving any vehicle can be dangerous if the pelican behind the wheel has the wrong attitude.
It didn't take me long to realise that driving a heavy 4wd takes a lot more care and concentration. Completely different handling and braking characteristics along with far more power make it necessary.
As for getting t-boned by someone who ran a red-light, that happened because of the knob behind the wheel who just happened to be driving a 4wd. It would just as likely happen if the car was a Commodore, Corolla or Ferrari.
4WDs don't kill people. People kill people.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:23
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| Ribfeast wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 15:10 |
| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:02 |
River,
What make the trucks that deliver groceries to Woolies any safer?
How about the ones that deliver fuel to your local servo?
And the ones that deliver tyres to the tyre shops?
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They serve a useful purpose! 4WDs used for dropping off the kids to soccer do not! Get a Tarago, or Odyssey etc if you can't wear a condom and have 5 kids to carry around!
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So you are in favour of determining somethings right to be on the road by its purpose?
What purpose do sports cars serve on the road?
None, but why are they there? because they comform to every ADR of its year of manufacture.
The same as 4wd's do.
The paper pushers have deemed them safe, so why aren't they? Simple, because people don't drive them like they should be driven, ie, with less vigour than a sedan.
Having soccer mums in 4wd's is NO MORE dangerous than having an inexperience driver in a powerful car. Infact, its most likely much safer.
Infact, putting ANY driver in a car they are not familiar with is a dangerous concept.
This is where training comes in.
Making sure a driver knows how to handle a 4wd on the road, a sports car in the wet, a 2 tonne machine in an emergency situation.
But they get no such training.
Oh, and you're also in favour of penalising people who decide to have multiple kids by making them choose one of a few car instead of everything available?
Great, let me vote you into a position of power.
[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2005 07:27]
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 07:51
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Hi,
| CrUZsida wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:02 |
River,
What make the trucks that deliver groceries to Woolies any safer?
How about the ones that deliver fuel to your local servo?
And the ones that deliver tyres to the tyre shops?
The list goes on.
The fact is that they are on the roads, and they will ALWAYS be on the road.
The best way to deal with it is to make sure people know ho wto drive in the first place.
Saying that that is a bandaid solution has to be the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.
Gotta teach someone to walk properly before they can run
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I am not talking about trucks and service vehicles that deliver supplies and keep this nation going. I am perfectly aware that these vehicles are on the roads and they are necessary, and I don't have an issue with them. Most people who drive them do so because it is their job and are usually good drivers. However, they still have accidents - often with fatal results.
While I understand and don't have an issue regarding your argument in ensuring better skilled drivers are on the road, it is also perfectly valid that large 4WD in urban areas are unnecessary and, as I mentioned, inherently dangerous to other vehicles when a collison occurs.
Although you may think my comment as "dumb", it escapes me that you seem to think putting people on a course is going to make everything better and the roads will become a sweet, carnage free utopia. It won't. Sure, there will be benefits, but let's not stop at a just that. Why not also remove the offending vehicles at the same time?
It provides little solace to me if my car was hit by a large 4WD and my family was hurt bad (or worse) to have the driver of the 4WD say "Gee, sorry mate. I don't know how that happened 'cos I went on a course and all". At the end of the day, people are people and not everyone gets the gist of what they're being shown. It only takes one foolhardy moment or minor distraction for a driver to make an error that could result in an accident - no amount of training, across all the people, are going to solve these issues.
Unless the training is going to be extremely thorough and requires annual revision and testing (similar to pilot training for aircraft) then a one-off course isn't going to cure poor drivers. Furthermore, constant and thorough testing will be economically unfeasible to the average driver. And, in the end, it doesn't fix the problem of large 4WD vehicles that are driven in city suburbs, where they are not necessary and their size puts smaller cars at a distinct and unsafe disadvantage in a collision.
Finally... I don't mind having a healthy debate with you on this and the exchange of points of view, but if you keep throwing subjective words like "dumb" around (in reference to my points of view) then you've lost the argument. There is really no need to start slagging when a well constructed criticism and clear dialogue would be more effective in getting your point across. In that regard, I'll give you merit that advanced driving courses are advantagous and offer some solution (as opposed to bandaid), but it's not the full solution to this problem.
seeyuzz
river
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 08:17
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My use of the word 'dumb' was point directly at that ONE comment of yours. Not at your WHOLE view (I probably didn't make that clear).
It was basically saying that you can't call the first step a 'bandaid' It logically doesn't make sense, hence it was a 'dumb' comment.
That aside I don't agree with what you are saying.
30 years ago the mentality on Mine Sites was that safety glasses, helmets, fireproof clothes, procedures were all a load of wank.
You look at it today, and you'll almost NEVER see someone walking around without the correct protection gear.
Incidents are getting less and less. And the incidents that are happening are getting less and less severe.
This is purely because the culture has changed. People now see safety as being important. And doing things safely is now a high priority.
This didn't happen over night. It took years to get people to change, and some people still haven't.
But why has it changed? Because they are TRAINING people to do the job correctly before they get used to doing it incorrectly.
And then after that they are watched by Supervisors to make sure they continue to do it correctly, and are notified whenever they aren't.
On top of this MORE courses are compulsory every few years to keep your knowledge and skills up to date.
The SAME needs to happen with cars.
We need to train NEW drivers PROPERLY.
None of this 20min test I did when I got my license.
And we need to keep having courses every few years to STOP people from developing bad habits.
If you look at how much driving is required to get your license now you'll see that its beginning to happen.
Yes, I know this is no going to turn Australia into a Utopia by the end of the year, but its a start.
You start with the cause, the person behind the wheel.
You CANNOT blame the tool. You don't like the tool, you don't use it.
If someone isn't comfortable driving a 4wd, then they by themselves should decide that they wont drive it until they are comfortable doing so.
This is the kind of mentality we need everyone to have.
By training someone properly they will do the right thing themselves. But the training we currently have sucks ass.
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Location:
Coffs Harbour, NSW
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 08:21
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| Ribfeast wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:10 |
...can't wear a condom and have 5 kids to carry around!
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that was pretty harsh!
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 08:38
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Hi there,
well what a debate.....
some well versed opinions here both ways....
Speaking from someone that has driven heavy vehicles (only up to 24 tonne) has a 12 sec car and a 4x4, and aslo has had alot of experience with younger drivers and attitude( being a former high school teacher) these are my opinions.
i definately think the whole ban the 4x4 thing is a band aid solution, and in many ways no different to the ban fast car arguements, neither of which i agree with.
a 4x4 patrol, long wheelbase weighs 2050kg, travelings at 100km/h it has a momentum of 57 000nm/s the same momentum as the afore mentioned gt falcon travelling at 111km/h.
as you can see there is not much difference, yes there are limitation on vehicle handling and braking. but how many celicas are out there with 1g's and no brakes mods or similar.
banning people from vehicles will not help, aspeople can and will play, be silly have accident etc in whatever they are allowed to drive.
one of the worst things that comes from these kind of things is the division between different groups of motor enthusiests. the 4x4 forums are sayin the opposite to you guys.... ban fast cars not necessary etc... If all enthusiests were able to stand together then we would have a voice, and voting power to actually have a say rather than just winge after the decision is made.
all the winging between v8's suck, that is rice, 4x4's, performance cars.... fords v's holden stc.... all it does is divide us, and let people who are not involved make the decisions that affect us.
a more resonable way of removing bad drivers etc.... would be to randomly, with registration renewal, to require a driving test in that vehicle, not in the same vein as a p's test, but a safe driving test, ability to drive the vehicle that is registered in your name. so i could be called in to prove i can safely drive either my celica or my 4x4.
i think we all know people who have fluked their licencse etc.
keep up the discussion...
Cheers
Stew
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 08:44
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^^^ This is pretty much my exact views ^^^
I just don't have the eloquence to put it so nicely and simply, so you end up with the verbal diarrhea I produced above
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 11:56
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:14 |
i once again say a van is not always as good in our circumstance the vans at the time had no windows that opened in the third row of seating for one. Second in frontal impacts vans are bad as they have no crumple zone space, my dad wouldn't buy one for this reason, vans have less loading space in the rear when fully occupied, many vans are underpowered with smallish 4cyl engines compared to a laden mass going on holidays.
Most vans at the time for some reason had sliding doors that opened on to the road not the path i mean wtf.
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OK why not a holden crewman then? Room for 5 people, plus a massive 'boot', V8 engine etc. What more do you need? Other than a different brand lol
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 13:48
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| Ribfeast wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 19:56 |
| Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 31 May 2005 17:14 |
i once again say a van is not always as good in our circumstance the vans at the time had no windows that opened in the third row of seating for one. Second in frontal impacts vans are bad as they have no crumple zone space, my dad wouldn't buy one for this reason, vans have less loading space in the rear when fully occupied, many vans are underpowered with smallish 4cyl engines compared to a laden mass going on holidays.
Most vans at the time for some reason had sliding doors that opened on to the road not the path i mean wtf.
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OK why not a holden crewman then? Room for 5 people, plus a massive 'boot', V8 engine etc. What more do you need? Other than a different brand lol
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I take it you've never sat in the back of a crewman?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 14:16
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I'm tired and haven't really been bothered to read all the arguments but when I was on my L's (I'd probli done around 100 hours) I drove my friends Nissan Patrol and I don't think there should be too much of a fuss over these things.
I mean when I drove I understood that naturally this is a bigger car, I'm not going to drive as fast, turn as hard, I'll be braking slower etc.
These are the kinds of things you think about when you get behind the wheel of any car anyway. I mean if you jump into your mates car and realise he has shitty brakes or his steering is really hard you're going to adapt your driving style to suit the conditions.
I felt it was a good experience because I learned to drive in a 90 sx corolla and until then I never really got behind the wheel of a big car so when I got my P's and drove my mate's falcon I was a lot better off and comfortable.
I don't have too much of a problem with people driving them in city areas (although not my vehicle of choice). I don't think a seperate license is going to be made for owners of 4WD's.
The wankers that are going to roll the 4x4/reverse into people/speed in 4x4's are morons to begin with and are going to do it anyway regardless of what they drive.
I think this is a good opportunity however to get some more tax dollars going around for the less fortunate people out there. I vote that the owners of 4wd's bought as a luxury vehicle (ie. not because of a need to drive one) should be hit with a 4WD tax because they add more wear and tear to our roads which we the taxpayers will have to pay for and unnecessarily because they don't NEED to drive 4WD's. 
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Casula
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 21:06
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I have been reading this with interest,there have been good arguments and valid points for & against 4X4's.
I'm an ex-interstate truck driver and still hold my class HC (semi trailer)license, my young bloke also holds his HC license and drives intrastate.
And I have just taught his wife to drive, in a Maverick long wheel base 4X4,(she got her P's on Monday) in the Maverick.
Ok back on topic,I personally think the licensing process for car drivers is far to easy,(this has been a pet thing for me for years).
A young guy (in school uniform)with 3 young mates waiting for him to get back,got his license on the same day in a Swift,now there is nothing to stop him from hoping in a large 4X4 and heading off with a car load of his friends to have fun.
This thread is a good example of what I'm talking about: http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=70578&start=0&rid=9040&S=e4d196f048f 6099e8d52d71f3141e29b
Car drivers should have to have their license endorsed to drive a 4X4 of any size or to tow anything behind their car,in other words do a driving test with the vehicle they are going to drive/tow.
But the thing is you will NEVER stop people doing the wrong thing on the roads.
And thats my 2c worth.
[Updated on: Tue, 31 May 2005 21:10]
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Tue, 31 May 2005 21:41
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Hi,
You've made some good points, but I am not convinced that putting people on training courses will alone fix the problem.
Training miners in their work is a lot different to training (and maintaining that expertise) to the millions of people who drive vehicles. Also, it will become an extremely expensive item to continue with constant and high-level testing/training for this many people. Insurance, rego and other vehiclular related costs won't go down - they never do despite advances in vehicle safety. Furthermore, this testing regime will force a lot of people to rely on other methods of transport (until they can pass their tests), which means less cars on the road (therefore an impact to our vehicle industry and a reduction of employment for those in related industries), the insurance will increase to make up for the lack of cars/drivers on the road. Inadequate public or alternative transport will force more illegal drivers on the road 'cos they need their license to get to work or to do their job.
There is nothing you have said to convince me that the vast majority of large 4WD vehicles are necessary in a city/urban environment. Their point of impact usually bypasses the built-in intrusion system and crumple zones of a normal road vehicle and this is the biggest issue to me, let alone the injuries these vahicles cause to pedastrians. As I've previously mentioned, and so have a few others, people will still do stupid things and all the training in the world isn't going to remedy this issue. I don't doubt some form of training has its merits and advantages and it gets my support, but the removal of unnecessary large 4WD in the cities and suburbs is also a part of the solution.
This is a great discussion, however, I think the best we can achieve in this debate is to agree to disagree. I doubt that either one of us will persuade the other to their line of reasoning.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Wed, 01 June 2005 09:12
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hi,
River, you are deffinately right... people will never agree, but putting ideas forward sensbly allows all of us to see other points of view.
like you i know plenty of bad 4x4 drivers, many of them that do not "need" 4x4's.
what i worry about is the way you use unnesecarry (spelling...) who gets to define what is a necessary use for a 4x4? i had a v6 rodeo (2wd) that i used to use to tow my boat (18.5 foot fibreglass) and it towed it very well and legally. my new patrol (well new for me) will tow it much better, or is that unnescessary? how often would you have to go off road to be deemed to "need" it?
i think this come down to personal choice. There are people out there (not myself) who could justifyably argue that there is no need for you to own your celica. unless it is registered as a vintage car and only used in historic events that you should be forced to drive a newer, more environmentally friendy vehicle.....
as for 4x4 causing more wear and tear on roads etc.... they already pay more... rego is weight dependant, and these "gas guzzling" cars supply more revenue per km due to the tax on fuel.
again i reiterate that if you think it is fair to take the choice of what you can and cant drive (just cause you dont need it)away from people, then modified cars of all sorts will be on the hits list.
dont forget that under current licensing that you can drive up to 4.5 tonne, which i have seen people who have never driven anything other than a small 4cyl, hire a small removal style truck and drive in traffic...... which is more dangerous.... where do you stop?
Cheers
Stew
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Location:
Potts Point, Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Wed, 01 June 2005 14:27
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i reckon anyone who buys a 4WD should take a advanced driving course, and have a separate license class so not just any soccer mum can jump behind the wheels and merge into me and ram me off the road (like the other day)
And i'd agree with higher rego fees etc
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Wed, 01 June 2005 22:12
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Hi,
Good points.
Perhaps I did not clarify myself when using the generic term of "large urban 4WD" vehicles. I understand some people require these vehicles to support their job or their hobbies. I have some friends who own such vehicles and one of them also has a boat and needs his vehicle to get the boat into and out of some pretty hairy boat-ramps. So be it. I don't have an issue with that. My other friends have large 4WD and when I asked them why they say "I feel safer. I know that if an accident happens that me and my family are safer." I then ask about the car they hit in such an accident. The response is always a shrug, followed by "Tough. I don't really care about them. I'm just looking out for my family first."
As far as personal choice goes, it is somewhat limited by our current rules/regulations and costs. The introduction of ULP in 1986 and the subsequent removal of leaded petrol has taken a lot of old cars off the road. If you want to buy a luxury vehicle, then it costs you more (ie government tax). If you want to buy a non-Australian built vehicle then you pay extra tarrifs on your car. Vehicles over three years old are forced to get registration checks. So, our choice to own a car in excess of three years old is more expensive. The choice is still there, but it costs you more. If you read my initial post in this thread you'll see that I am not removing peoples choice in owning a large 4WD for their urban usage, I'm just making it much more expensive to own and operate one.
The vast bulk of large 4WD that drive around on our sealed city and urban roads are not used for off-roading, nor work purposes (other than perhaps mere transport to get them to work and back), nor are they used for towing boats or other devices.
In regards to powerful sports cars - I think they should be slugged if they're over a specific power/weight ratio. I agree with many people in regards to powerful cars in the hands of P-platers and I question the need to have (say) a 300kw engine in a small vehicle. In regards to modded vehicles, the insurance costs are very high, plus the engineering costs and although it doesn't stop them from doing this to their cars, they have to pay to get these things done. Again, it's not removing their choice, but their choice is costing them.
Hyperthetically, I can see a future where the purchase of a hybrid vehicle could perhaps give you some form of rewards points or whatever. This would be to encourage people to have a more eco-friendly vehicle. Those that still choose to keep or purchase their normal petrol vehicles won't get any benefit. It won't stop us buying the non-hybrid, but our choice to do so will cost us more.
I checked my previous post and used the term "removal of large 4WD" for city/urban usage. Let me quantify that by saying "make the cost of pure urban/city 4WD much more expensive".
How many times should a 4WD go off-road before it is deemed as a necessary vehicle? I don't know. Maybe all 4WD vehicles, over a certain weight/size need to be registered in 4WD clubs. Maybe they have to attend x-number of meetings and do x-number of off-road trips per annum? Naturally, driver training for these vehicles would be a part of the package. I'm sure there are other things and ideas we could come up with, but it'd only be forum-talk (ie I am not a government official who can ratfiy any such changes), and I'm sure that whatever is suggested will earn the ire of some people.
Ahhh, my old Celica. It's not a car that is encouraged to be on the road. There are only a handful of insurance companies that will insure the car. Parts are very hard to get and quite expensive. These things cost me. It doesn't stop me from having my car, but it does cost me to choose to keep and run it. If it was an old non-JDM GT then I probably would of sold it off many years ago. Currently I am not financial enough to buy a modern vehicle to replace the Celica for daily driving. As soon as I am I do intend to register it under the classic category and use it only for Club events.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4WD, should you need a special license to use em? give us ya thoughts
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Thu, 02 June 2005 02:45
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bump 4WD's up into LT class then drivers will be required to atleast spend a couple of days learning about mass and how to drive and reverse properly! would not worry tooo many farmers as most would have truck licences anyway!
im going for my HR licence and that takes 3 days!
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