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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 04:19
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im putting together a feasibilty report for a turbo rebuild on my 3sgte. im tring to list all required parts, but theres gota be something missing. its in a st165.
things i have listed are:
These are the main essentials:
pistons, piston rings and pins
connecting rods
headgasket and ARP headbolts
injectors, fuel pump
aftermarket computer and harness.
probably a high flowing of current ct26, or soemthing of the like.
some kind of upgrade to the intercooler. FMIC or group A
so far probably looking at about 10g spent.
then there are extras which arent so neccesary but would be good:
exhaust modification
air intake
fuel lines
custom plenum
oil pump and cooler
surge tanks
MAP sensor conversion.
larger throttlebody
is there anything major ive left out from the essentials?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 04:41
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Not quite 'parts', but crack testing the crank, get new main bearings, all new seals, decking the block and machining the head (if going MHG)... sure there are plenty more.
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 06:34
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what do u mean deck the block?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 06:42
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He should have said "face the block" - it's simply cleaning up the surface and removing any minor variances to allow a metal head gasket to seal better on the two surfaces.
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 07:21
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oh right.
well i sorta meant hardware rather testin stuff.
shaveing and cleaning up the block/head wasnt really what i was talking about.
just talking components that would need to be ordered at the moment.
e.g.
maybe valve springs etc. but more in the line of the MUST have components.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 08:15
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Rod cap bolts are placed under alot of stress. If ur getting ARP head bolts i would also look into ARP rod cap bolts.
Iv seen the results of bearing failure causing ARP rod bolts snapping in half, not pretty at all. the rod was in about 4 big chunks and the gudgeon pin was broken of inside the small end, the rest was shatterd throughout the engine. However this was a 1400hp small block v8.
whoops it seems i have gotten a little carried away.
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 09:14
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lol, thats awsome.
right. arp caps will go to the maybe list.
i dont think id be looking for monster power, more a mix of useful power and reliability. do it right the first time i rekon.
id be happy with beeing able to romp most of the v8 holdens out there over a 0-100. dont really wana make a nice car into a 1/4 mile car. i want a weekend warrior!
thanks for input
any1 else?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 09:48
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I don't see any bearings on that list so you might want to add those.
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 10:44
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Um, ask yourself now how much power you want. And how you intend to get there...
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 12:22
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Being that your coming form a ST165 (from your previous thread). To reach say 200awkw.
-Head rebuild with cams (rare for Gen1 - out there though), or Gen2 head
-Gen2 pistons, or forged (Forged go for around $900, genuine around the $700)
-Stock rods shotpeened
-Stock Crank
-New bearings (Kings, Clevites, Genuine ($hudder)
-Balance the whole lot
-Arp headbotls and MHG
For the above mentioned, you 'could' do it for around $5k, but the thing is, because the crank and rods are quite strong (especailly treated) this will net you an easy 300awkw if not more. (700rwhp has been recorded with shotpeened Gen2 rods, and the Gen1 rods arn't that much different...)
You can go Arp rod and mainbolts, but there is nothing wrong with the toyota items. Plenty strong.
Machining and labour will take up the bulk of the cost.
See going the expense of new forged rods, you can, but save your money.
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 12:54
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thats the best answer ive ever had.
thanks for that.
altho ive already found sum pistons:
ITEM DESCRIPTION:
Toyota 3SGTE kits include:Forged pistons.
Wrist pins: high carbon, case-hardened.
Ring set: chrome or moly faced top, cast 2nd, 3-piece oil.
Locks: carbon steel wire or spiral.
Arias: 87mm Turbo 8.5:1 $475.00
Paradise Racing uses Arias Pistons in all of our race engines and in our customers engine builds.
AMERICAN OF COURSE
http://www.paradiseracing.com/engines/3sge/piston. htm
so that would be like 600$ aud, and 50$ or so delivery. not sure what rings would be used with it tho, althou they couldnt be much more.
or there are these complete kits ud be looking bout 1000aud.
http://search.stores.ebay.com/search/search.dll?qu ery=3sgte&srchdesc=y&sid=22980009&stor e=DYNOFLO+PERFORMANCE+AUTOWORKS&colorid=15& ;fp=0&st=1&fsoo=2&fsop=2
im guessing we are talking runnin like 20psi sorta thing from the power ratings uve listed, so:
what id be wondering is some sort of aftermarket management for running something like that. be looking at wofl computers for 1500 ish, not sure how much it would be to have installed, and 500$ or so for a dyno tune.
the stock turbo isnt gona have much longer in it running like this too. even with typical hi-flowed ct26 its gona be pushing it.
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Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2004
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 13:10
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Keep in mind that buying overseas. Your going to cop import duty tax when you bring it back. Which will bump it up to around the same price you can get them here.
I used Arias pistons in my rebuild. 40thou over (87mm) and cost 859 from modyourcar.com.au
The Arias pistons come with there own matched rings as well. Along with gudgeon pins.
Now mangement is easy. If your just after power and don't care for any kind of economy. Then go something like the Microtech. Cheap and just about every major tuner out there can tune it.
Personally, i'd go something midfield such as the stinger, haltech, or the wolf. $2k will net you the unit and tune time, add more if you pay for it to be wired in. You ahve a ST165 so you won't have anything plug and play (not even the wolf).
The turbo on the other hand is a touch or go issue. Highflows will last the distance. 300rwhp is about the limit of most highflows out there, as shown by the MR2 community.
Fueling is your next issue. You have the top feed rail, but im not sure how it flows. I know that the Gen2 rail has a flow problem where some of the injectors receive less fuel pressure then the others using larger injectors. Which causes lean out issues. Which you want to avoid. I'd do my research here if i were you.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 13:18
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Buy a gen3 halfcut and do some modding to that.As its already got forgies gt some new rings, bearings etc and redo all of the seals and get some port + port matching done to the head and manifolds.
Not only will you get the forgies but you'll also get the loom etc and the 205 box which i believe has an LSD.Also you'll get the better turbo.
I reckon you can get a halfcut for 5k and then add labour + parts then aftermarket managment(wolf 3d) i reckon you could get it in at under 10K. PLus, you'll have somewhere to go on the stopck turbo(hi flow that) and can later add exhaust stuff, cams etc etc
Whatya reckon?
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 13:37
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my st165 already has LSD from what i know.
although the 205 box beeing stronger would be nice.
as for the half cut, i dont know that it is worth it. spending 10k on getting a conversion done, or spend that 10k on building up the current 3sgte. building the current 3sgte with a 10k budget would make much more power, plus uve got a completely fresh and rebuilt engine.
so yeah, back to the previous post,
ur right, fueling would be a huge issue, pump, fuel rail and injectors would all need looking at. and the computer to controll them off course.
looking at prob 4k there (hopefully including labour)
then 1k for a custom FMIC setup.
weve hit 10k again so easy.
then after all that, im prob gona smash my cluch or gearbox or both, let alone kill my breaks.
fuk things get expensive quick.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 13:40
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nope, 165s are open front and open rear diffs.you didnt get LSDs until the 20* series,(202 and 205) I reckon you could get a low km halfcut for about 5, new seals and rings and bearings, maybe 1k labour and parts and the head would be about 500 bux -1000 max. Then exhaust, intercooler piping and getting it wiored in maybe another 2k-3k. Youve still got a couple of k left to get managment. Shop round adn see what prioces you can come with for both parts and labour.
good luck with it all
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Wed, 01 June 2005 14:26
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Yeah ST165 has open front and rear diffs - only viscous diff is in the centre.
Clutch/gearbox won't be a huge issue unless you do some big launches, and then you'll probably only wear the clutch out.
Brakes - yeah again, not a huge issue - the car isn't that heavy, just get some new pads and maybe rotors if your current rotors are on the way out, some pads will wear standard rotors down quicker, and some rotors will wear standard pads out quicker.
Dude - it sounds like what you need to do is go out and get a quote from a workshop - as you aren't really planning on doing any work yourself?
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 02 June 2005 00:36
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havent decided on a workshop yet, are there any recommendations for the eastern suburbs in melbourne??
obviously all the machine work would have to be done in a shop. but as for the engine removal and takeing off the head, striping the block etc, i have a mechanic who can help me do a backyard job, but then again depending on price, i may just have it all done at a shop.
has any1 had this sorta thing done at shop before for the 3sgte?
what were they charging you for labour?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
April 2004
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 02 June 2005 10:13
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go the ARP rod bolts, $50 is good insurance
i'd say just go for the following
basic rebuild with the following items
shot peen rods
mild cams {or maybe some gears}
race bearings with a bit less clearance than "race-spec"
port job
arp bolts or studs
MHG maybe
but the ancillaries are out of my reach
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 02 June 2005 13:12
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| ra_28 wrote on Thu, 02 June 2005 10:54 |
What happened to the spark you need to upgrade ignition. All this fuel and boost you need a good spark to burn this combination. I find this to be a major part needed to make a good engine. 
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There's plenty of MR2's in the US making 450+ HP at the wheels on completely stock ignition systems. The stock system needs to be looked after and the leads don't last a huge amount of time but if it's in good nick there is no doubt it will support all the power he needs.
Of course that's assuming the Gen 1 ignition is as good as the Gen 2.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Fri, 03 June 2005 08:33
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owe me big for this one! but i could always put it together for you.
4x eagle h-beam rods aprox $800
4x CP pistons and stainless rings{pick comp ratio or off the shelf and size)aprox $900
clevlite bearings aprox $130
trd head gasket aprox $220
arp main and head stubs aprox $300
16x isky springs and retainers aprox $450
16 x stainless valves (atleat .5 oversize)aprox $40 each
16 X bronze seats aprox $200
2 x billet cams custom aprox $900
2 x veriner cam gears approx $400
1 x waterpump remote billet aprox $400
1 x highflow thermostat aprox $80
1 x trd high flow oil pump aprox $300
1 x custom sump aprox $380
line bore block
bore block with bore plate
balance rotating assem
deck head as little as possable
list goes on
sound ok
ive done 2 with the above and they have lasted with the right tuning for 15k km with 15-28 psi so far.
there is alot more to it but its a step in the right direction.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Fri, 03 June 2005 14:08
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Are those valves for the Gen 1 or Gen 2 3S-GTE?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Fri, 03 June 2005 21:17
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either!
also ment to add dont use Arias pistons unless its a mild rebuild they are the cheapies of forged pistons.they have a very thin crown and machining is average. good pistons are CP,SRP,maule.
mick
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Location:
melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 09 June 2005 06:34
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what are cp and srp?
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Location:
Arthurs Creek, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 09 June 2005 06:51
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Your building a forged turbo??
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Location:
Sydney Australia
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 09 June 2005 07:22
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all this depends on whether its trade or retail price
one thing you havent looked at is lubrication system:
high volume or modified oil pump - budget round 300-500 bucks new or round 200 to modify - or source a TRD oil pump maybe
cross drilling crank and journals - $150
id also go forged pistons (a little oversize maybe 20 thou) with shot peened rods as suggested - shot peening cost me 40 bucks a rod trade price (bankstown airport engineer there) so bout 900 for pistons\rings and 160 for shot peening - then get crank linished, and nitrided then get entire rotaing mass balanced and if possible blue printed, including the flywheel and pressure plate combination (individual clearances are matched up here and checked)
then look at your inlet manifold - make sure at the very least it is port matched and if possible, get a custom plenum made up to suit standard runners
then throttle body upgrade perhaps to compliment extra air flow required - do this in keeping with same aims as fuel system - ie . rail, lines, regulator, pump, etc
verniers are a definite with aftermarket cams and turbo - if u dont want billet then get them reground for bout 150-200 each (trade once again) to suit ur planned ignition timing and power\torque curve
i'd just upgrade coils and use revamped ignition system with new ecu - all good ecu's will allow you wasted spark or direct fire ignition setup, but use either good new bosch coils or get an msd blaster coil or the like.
and then focus on free flowing exhaust including custom dump pipe, good front mount, piping and COOLING SYSEM - check ur water pump is working properly and maybe add another or larger fan, bigger radiator (recored or alloy) - you dont want this to cook ur newly acquired goodies.
cant think of anything else for now - if i remember anything ill add it
cheers
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Location:
Sydney Australia
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Thu, 09 June 2005 07:23
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| kingmick wrote on Sat, 04 June 2005 07:17 |
either!
also ment to add dont use Arias pistons unless its a mild rebuild they are the cheapies of forged pistons.they have a very thin crown and machining is average. good pistons are CP,SRP,maule.
mick
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i used Ross forgies ordered from states - cost me 1050 delivered with rings at trade price in Feb 2004 (shitter exchange rate back then) and were custom made to my specs (8.1:1 comp - another motor not toyota) - top shit - luved their work
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Fri, 10 June 2005 07:19
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and ross pistons awell with the good ones in my list they are another good quailty piston.
CP and SRP are makes of pistons.
ment a big WTF to "im putting together a feasibilty report for" now that cracked me up.
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Location:
Sydney Australia
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Fri, 10 June 2005 07:29
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get a new harmonic balancer as well - even out any vibrations in the front end of the motor - get this balanced along with ur rotating mass
and kingmick - hehehe - he's writing up a review of this for us thus the "report" hehehe
but i know what u mean - tough decisions ahead mate - good luck either way cos let me tell u from now, both ways will end up costing u money whether u like it or not
you are bound to have something along the way either forgotten or not planned for
ill give u an example - my motor sat in pieces ready to be assembled waiting on the smallest part ever - a cam spacer - couldnt find one for that motor ANYWHERE - my original one was either lost by me or by the machinist (couldnt put my finger on where it was lost and couldnt be fucked blaming the machinest so took the blame myself but i still have a feeling he mightve lost it when it was attached to the pulley) - anyway - this took me two months to find one, and this is for a part that cost me merely 15 bucks !! - after all the work !!
so be prepared buddy
good luck
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: planning a forged turbo rebuild. whats required.
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Sat, 11 June 2005 01:55
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Don't forget the rebuild seal / gasket set.
Will set you back about $200 for aftermarket or $300+ for Toyota Genuine.
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