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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 18:11
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can you believe it
michilen couldnt garuntee the saftey of their tyres so all but minardi jordan and ferarri have pulled out without turning an agressive lap
this is an absolute discrace and i blame equally michilan and FIA
michilen are responsible for engineering a safe compedative tyre and the FIA are responsible for providing a race not this farce with one top tier and two theird tier teams turnign up to the grid
thanks a fucking lot FIA for exercising stupidity once again bringing the sport into disrepute when the solution was as easy as allowing a once off situation of tyre pitstops allowed and a huge financial fine to michilen to discourage this ever happening again hence allowing a fair and equal race for all teams
those who support legislation and not bending rules
THANKS A FUCKING LOT FOR WRECKING ANOTHER SPORT
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 18:38
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Bloody ridiculous, i'm watching it at the moment and its just stupid. in an interview with Paul Stoddart, even he doesnt agree with the decision. his team will benefit greatly from this but even he isnt enthused to stand outside on the pit wall.
The Formuala one might be a car race, but ultimately it is an entertainment sport, and the FIA's decision to treat this matter as such only impacts the sport further. Already there is negative feedback over the changes they have made this year, but this one must be the worst one to date.
I'm annoyed, but i feel for those who acutally bought a ticket to the event. How cheated would you feel.
Disgruntled....  bloody FIA (not to mention Ferrari standing by the decision  )
edit...
For all those that arent sure what has happened, Michelin Tyres were unable to withstand the final corner and hence in practice, several tyres had failed and in toyota's case, the cars flying off. This was due to the big sweeping final corner which is banked at 9 Degrees and the straight right after. this bend caused the tyre to heat up and the sidewall couldnt cope. it also had the problem where by it wanted to fold under itself. (this is a brief summary from what the commentators have said)
They have also said that Bridgestone has been able to produce a tyre for this race as its other company Firestone, which had its tyres out on the track recently (i think it was for the indy race correct me if i'm wrong) and they passed the information from that race onto Bridgestone. so in effect bridgestone gained inside information about the newly resurfaced track. how come the FIA doesnt crack down on this. What happened to a level playing field?
Had Bridgestone not gained the above knowledge in regards to the track and its effects on tyre's then they too might possibly have encountered similar problems as Michelin. I wonder what the FIA would have done then? not let any cars run at all?
ps. who things ferrari will use team orders at the end?
[Updated on: Sun, 19 June 2005 18:46]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 18:52
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Ofcourse Ferrari will, some 'creative' pit stops towards the end. Either way this entire situation is a joke, I shouldn't have stayed upto watch it :\
I feel sorry for Trulli, his first pole and it's taken away from him :\
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 19:28
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i wouldnt blame ferrari for not agreeing with the chicane. they are a team in contention (among bridgestone) and having a chicane all of a sudden would put all the efforts they had in setting up their car. the gear ratios would be different for one (not sure how hard it is to change gear ratio on F1 cars)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 19:37
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Its not that, the Michelin runners were prepared to let all the bridgestone teams to run ahead, AND for the michelin runners to NOT score any points. so in the end its a win win situation for the bridgestone teams.
think about it ben, its a waste of a grand prix. we're not talking about the championship anymore, we're talking about the sport in particular and its future, its image, etc. This one race has potentially caused enough damage for there to not be another F1 race in North America.
who cares about the setup etc that would need to be changed, its moreso the lack of a race. six cars on a circuit is appaling.
and the fans that throw beer cans on the track are pure tools.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 19:58
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speaking of throwing stuff, go check out the road rage thread. anyway, it was interesting to see barichelo drive over the bottle of water. of coz its dangerous, but its interesting to watch assuming no accident happen
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Sun, 19 June 2005 20:24
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http://www.grandprix.com/race/r740racereport.html
there are alot of interesting arguments and articles flying around now, but the general consensus is that there should have been a race that wouldnt damage the sports image. what a sad day for F1
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 02:09
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Soooo . . . .
Ferrari Bet the farm that the Michelin teams would doddle around, handing them an easy win, with the FIA backing them all the way. To their credit, Michelin and the teams didn't blink, showing Ferrari and the FIA up as what they are - an arrogant pair of bullies. I hope some self-righteous heads roll over this, and I'm not talking about the people at Michelin who fucked up (bigtime).
Ironically, the proposed 2008 rules released by the FIA at the end of last week are actually quite close to what I'd like see happen. Unfortunately, I suspect they'll stuff them long before it actually gets close to actually being rules.
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 02:53
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| da_horse wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 05:10 |
did you see Michael upon entering after his pit stop? how un-sportsman like was that? This night has gone from bad to worse
poor Trulli, and Toyota. first pole for both.
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what did he do?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 03:33
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Rob -> He was running Michelin.
I reckon this race should be scrapped from Championship points. It's just makes the whole championship a joke.
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Registered:
October 2004
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 03:53
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| RWDboy wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 13:33 |
Rob -> He was running Michelin.
I reckon this race should be scrapped from Championship points. It's just makes the whole championship a joke.
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man that's not cool
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 04:00
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^Xolent, Trulli was the driver of the Toyota that got pole 
Rob, i meant exiting the pit lane on his second stop. michael came into barrichello's line and barrichello ended up taking the grass line instead. after the race both ferrari drivers didnt talk or look at each other.
I think its embarrassing to see the jordan drivers acting like such. Granted they did get point and in Monterio (sp?) case he got podium. nevertheless they didnt do it with a full grid and its not something i would be proud of. There was more to this race then just points. At least Barrichello acted humbly at the press conference.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 04:19
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bah - like F1 has been much of sport at all in the past 4 years or so anyway..... boring as batshit in my opinion
if i wanna watch racing, i watch that Le Mans style production car racing - damn those prototype cars are NUTS.
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Registered:
October 2004
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Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 04:23
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| THE WITZL wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 14:19 |
bah - like F1 has been much of sport at all in the past 4 years or so anyway..... boring as batshit in my opinion
if i wanna watch racing, i watch that Le Mans style production car racing - damn those prototype cars are NUTS.
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and how can f1 ever compete with THIS
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Location:
Potts Point, Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 04:43
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| THE WITZL wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 14:19 |
bah - like F1 has been much of sport at all in the past 4 years or so anyway..... boring as batshit in my opinion
if i wanna watch racing, i watch that Le Mans style production car racing - damn those prototype cars are NUTS.
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So true 
Love the production car races, and the rally. Also prefer the V8's over F1...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Melbourne Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 04:45
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| xolent wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 14:19 |
Yes, I was stating that it was actually Toyota's first pole, not Trulli's.
Trulli got pole for Monte Carlo (Monaco) for Renualt and won it.
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ah gotcha i meant trulli first in a toyota 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 05:38
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17 tyre failures during practice
tyres lasting on average 10 laps
even shueys tryes blistered on the right rear and they had insider information before the race from their sister comany firestone who ran there a week ago
ferarri should loose their points + some more for team orders for finish positions
the soprt would be a lot better without ferarri and shuey
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 05:59
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Hi,
What's with the emotional anti-Ferrari comments, considering the problem was really with Michelin?
The fact that Mich and the FIA couldn't agree on a resolution has bugger all to do with Ferrari.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 06:32
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| river wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 15:59 |
Hi,
What's with the emotional anti-Ferrari comments, considering the problem was really with Michelin?
The fact that Mich and the FIA couldn't agree on a resolution has bugger all to do with Ferrari.
seeyuzz
river
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Ferrari was the only team not to agree with the addition of a chicane - even if it meant penalties for the Michelin teams, like no points, or giving the front 1/2 of the grid to bridgestone cars.
The point is, that given the situation with the Michelin's and the rules, Ferrari and the FIA had every right to allow the chicane, and not allocate any points or even results to the Michelin runners. This would still have resulted in a Ferrari 1-2, and also given the race fans something worthwhile to look at. It's a symptom of the small-minded, win-at-all-costs approach that has poisoned F1 over the last decade.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 07:13
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Hi,
No. Ferrari did not agree or disagree. They said that they would stand by the decision of the FIA.
An excerpt of the FIA reply to Michelin...
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Finally, it has been suggested that a chicane should be laid out in Turn 13. I am sure you will appreciate that this is out of the question. To change the course in order to help some of the teams with a performance problem caused by their failure to bring suitable equipment to the race would be a breach of the rules and grossly unfair to those teams which have come to Indianapolis with the correct tyres.
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Michelin sent another memo describing their problem and the FIA responded with...
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As explained in our earlier letter, your teams have a choice of running more slowly in Turn 12/13, running a tyre not used in qualifying (which would attract a penalty) or repeatedly changing a tyre (subject to valid safety reasons).
It is for them to decide. We have nothing to add.
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It is evident that Michelin did not have an appropriate tyre for the race and also the Michelin-tyred teams did not like the idea of running slower into that corner or changing the tyres in multiple pit-stops. Why should the Bridgestone runners be penalised or invovled in a full car race (with all other contenders) where they could get into an accident which would nullify their chances at getting some points?
Yes, the race was a sham and yes it was very bad PR for F1. I also don't like their rules and some of the other silly things that go on in F1, but, in this case, it was an FIA decision and Ferrari had nothing to do with it. If Ferrari agreed to not race then there would be no race. At least we got six cars, which is a small consolation.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 08:34
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river
ferarri have in the past and last night proven as stated above,
their win at all costs attitude and last nights cost was respect
the formula is now officially a joke as it no longer is about the sport yet about the business
the teams had no choice but use the tyres supplied to them by the manufacturer (incidently in following years this will be regulated to only one supplier)
the sponsers had no say in this with the exception of the one sponser, being the tyre suppliers
the drivers arent responsible, theyre there to race, not to enter into politics
the fans are the ultimate losers here due to the small mindedness of the select few with the power who coincidently will almost be the suppliers for the 08 regulations due to kickbacks and being in the back pocket of the fia
fcuk the fia and ferarri can join them in two horse races when all the other teams vacate this dying series
at the end ofr the day michilen didnt have an insider view of the track in advance as bridgestone did
firestone being the sister company of bridgestone ran there only several days ago for the indy 500 so knew the conditions and subsequently had an unfair advantage akin to extra testing that michilen didnt
the fia have the primary responsibility of drivers sfatey, spectators and sponsers value for money and equality and fairness for all competing teams
all but one team decided the situation was a farce and agreed to a stopgap solution yet the fia and ferarri blocked this once again with the teams sponsers and us being the ultimate to suffer
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Location:
Adelaide - Race Central
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 08:37
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another reason I hate Ferrari, other than the fact that Michael Schumacher is an arrogant bastard, is that in the last 2 disputes between teams, Ferrari had been the only team to 'not agree' with majority.
Remember Minardi and their decision use last year's engine/chassis. all teams agreed for them to use it accept for Ferrari, and caused them to not race in the Australian GP. and than there is this.
Ferrari team and road cars are overated boxes of shit and i have never looked at one twice when one drives past on the road. they are not good team players!
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 09:05
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Hi,
I don't disagree that Ferrari has caused issues and not "tow the line" (so to speak) on numerous occasions.
I also fully agree with you in regards to the stupid politics and antics of some of the teams and the FIA. And, you're dead right, this is the exact type of thing that pisses off and loses fans.
However, in this instance, the FIA made the decisions and it is partly responsible for the farce that happened. Michelin must share the rest of the blame - after all, it was them that let down their teams by providing inferior tyres. So what if Bridgestone wwent to the track earlier. If I was running Mich or Bridge then I'd expect my tyre manufacturer to do their job properly and get the low-downw on the track. The problems with the tyres were evident during the testing period and yet Mich did not kick up a fuss until a day before the race. Mich didn't do their job properly, didn't scout out the track properly and provided and inferiro product then had the hubris to try and get the regulations changed for their mistake.
A solution was offered by the FIA, albeit with penalites for tyre changes etc, but was not accepted by the other teams.
In regards to Minardi not being allowed to run last years chassis.... So what? The rules stipulate the new chassis and you abide by those rules. Considering Ferrari had the best chassis last year then why couldn't they run their old chassis also?
F1 is big money and a serious sport (although yesterdays race begs otherwise) and it's not kindergarten. No one is going to give the others a break or be all mates. You think if Ford had an issue and wasn't able to race in Bathurst that Holden would wave the rules and let them race. Not on your life.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
NSW Engadine
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 09:36
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I liked the way Michael just walked off the podium without even holding up the trophy or opening up the wine...
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 09:41
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It was a big conspiracy so Toyota wouldnt win 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 09:58
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| 79rollaboy wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 19:36 |
I liked the way Michael just walked off the podium without even holding up the trophy or opening up the wine...
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he obviously didnt see it as a win...
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 10:40
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guys guys. i dont blame ferrari at all. if u've been an athlete who put alot of effort into a particular field, it is only natural to do ANYTHING TO WIN WITHIN THE RULES. and i think thats exactly what ferrari did within the farked up rules.
things didnt turn out nice without a doubt. i dont blame ferrari for doin what they did. u have to understand their position. if u've been an athlete or something b4 u would understand. ferrari could have agreed to build a chicane and made things alot more interesting but it is not their responsibility to do so. they have every right to stand by their decision. afterall they were given an option to vote and they had every right to vote other wise.
it is FIA who is responsible to maintain fairness and an interest in the sport not the other parties. when michelin screwed up, they had to make a decision for the fans or fairness to a certain extend, and they choose fairness.
i say fairness coz as river said it is up to michelin to do their homework. bridgestone having info on the track?? Hey thats all part of the game. those guys improve tyre technology based on track info afterall. they should be professionals at gathering info and yes michelin screwed up this time.
lets look at it this way, if u have a soccer match, 5 players get injured, u only have 3 substitution, is the refree goin to allow a team to have more substitutions based on compasionate ground??
also, somebody was complaining about ferraris win at all cost. DUDE, thats the way it is or iit wouldnt be competitive!! Lleyton Hewitt(fart face) does that as well
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 11:32
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Personaly I'm against "win at all costs" mentalities.
After all, is it about winning? Or about beating the other drivers? If I was a driver, i'd want to race the other drivers, not quibble over the tyre compounds they used.
F1 racing doesn't excite me very much anyway.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 12:49
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Ferrari have definately closed the gap and are pretty much on par with McLaren now in championship points.
I'd be so disappointed if Ferrari were to win both drivers and constructors championship by a point or two at the end of the season.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 14:10
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You don't want to get me started on the sociology of modern sports  Suffice to say, F1 is all about money and winning, and going out and putting on a good show and having any form of fun (which is what i believe sports is supposed to be partly about) has all taken the backseat to competitiveness and the mentality that result is everything and process is nothing. I'm not saying that competition has no place in modern sports, but it is the focus of modern sports and that is why most sports sometimes suck ass to watch (unless you enjoy watching other people's successes alot).
Take all of this with a grain of salt though I just think that modern sports, and especially motor sports, don't encompass fully what sport is about anymore.
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Location:
Adelaide - Race Central
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Mon, 20 June 2005 14:14
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Shraka's comments were right!! you race to beat other drivers, and lets face it...Ferrari against either Jordan or Minardi? A blind person could see the outcome!!
river, i also agree with you about Michelin's fault with tyres etc. however, in regards to Minardi earlier this year....if all other teams agreed that they're allowed to race, than it shouldnt matter that much, especially to a front runner team like ferrari. personally, i think ferrari/the italians are just being arrogant pricks and flexing their power over the sport. sure they win races, but having a heart for less financially abundant teams wont hurt. and lets face-it, where's the fun in "winning" when you're racing Jordan.
and there, everyone was saying how passionate the Ferrari team is. this shows that they're not into F1 for racing.....!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 01:05
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| river wrote on Mon, 20 June 2005 19:05 |
The problems with the tyres were evident during the testing period and yet Mich did not kick up a fuss until a day before the race. Mich didn't do their job properly, didn't scout out the track properly and provided and inferiro product then had the hubris to try and get the regulations changed for their mistake.
A solution was offered by the FIA, albeit with penalites for tyre changes etc, but was not accepted by the other teams.
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Ralf's and Zonta's tyre failures both happened in 2nd practice, Friday - and since they're both Toyotas I suspect Michelin would have to establish whether it was a setup problem aggravating the tyres before it could shitcan everyone's tyres. I believe they told the FIA informally that there could be a problem on Friday afternoon, did their homework overnight and then sent the formal letter around saturday lunchtime.
How much time do you think there is in a race weekend, River?? There's only 50 hours between start of practce Friday, and the Race form-up Sunday. In the first 24Hours, Michelin decided that it couldn't trust the carcass they'd brought no matter what compound the teams spec'd, hence their not allowing more than 10 laps per-tyre in saturday practice. I believe they still had problems (not as dramatic as Ralf's though) running that distance.
American law is geared so that if anyone is injured using equipment that the supplier knows is unsafe/defective, then the supplier is in BIG SH!T ! ! That's why Michelin couldn't let cars race on the qual-tyre, just incase one gave out after say, 7 or 8 laps. I believe the teams & Michelin also offered to fly in tyres of sturdier construction, but the FIA replied with:
| Quote: |
Some of the teams have raised with us the possibility of running a tyre which was not used in qualifying. We have told them this would be a breach of the rules to be considered by the stewards. We believe the penalty would not be exclusion but would have to be heavy enough to ensure that no team was tempted to use qualifying tyres in the future.
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Do not misunderstand - That is a direct threat to the teams of MASSIVE fines should they choose different tyres.
The FIA's suggestion of drivers limiting their speed to a "safe limit" through turn 13 is patently absurd - Did Charlie Whiting forget that the cars are driven by RACECAR DRIVERS ? ! ? !
Yes Michelin fv(ked up massively - but they went in with a tyre they obviously expected to work, and be capable of winning the race. The FIA backed the Michelin teams into a corner which was untennable - at any time Ferrari could've said: "No chicane, no race, BUT give these guys this penalty . . . " - Ferrari DIDN'T make any concessions, nor did it offer help in finding a solution.
Ferrari knew they had a win in the bag, shame on them and the FIA that they refused to allow a show to go on for the fans.
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 02:02
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Hi,
I understand the points you're making, and in the most part, agree with them.
However, I do not agree with you in regards to Ferrari being instrumental in this debacle.
Although they are race car drivers, the option the FIA put forth to the Mich teams to slowdown on turns 12/13 were dismissed. If the Mich teams accepted this then they could of run without penalty and the full complement of vehicles would of been in the race. The Bridgestone teams had set up their tryes and suspension for the fast turn 12/13 circuit and the inclusion of a chicane would of put them at a disadvantage by changing the course. There is no reason why the Bridge teams should be penalised for the lack of Mich ability to produce a safe tyre.
I find it difficult to understand why you are so adamant that Ferrari is to blame in this, when it is clear the Mich teams refused the offer to slowdown in those turns. Being race car drivers or not, if the Mich teams were thinking of the fans then they'd say "yes, we'll slow down on those turns and make a race of it", but they didn't. Using your logic it seems the Mich teams were as much to blame for this debacle as Ferrari.
Here is the latest news briefing from the FIA...
| Quote: |
Formula One is a sporting contest. It must operate to clear rules. These cannot be negotiated each time a competitor brings the wrong equipment to a race.
At Indianapolis we were told by Michelin that their tyres would be unsafe unless their cars were slowed in the main corner. We understood and among other suggestions offered to help them by monitoring speeds and penalising any excess. However, the Michelin teams refused to agree unless the Bridgestone runners were slowed by the same amount. They suggested a chicane.
The Michelin teams seemed unable to understand that this would have been grossly unfair as well as contrary to the rules. The Bridgestone teams had suitable tyres. They did not need to slow down. The Michelin teams’ lack of speed through turn 13 would have been a direct result of inferior equipment, as often happens in Formula One. It must also be remembered that the FIA wrote to all of the teams and both tyre manufacturers on June 1, 2005, to emphasise that “tyres should be built to be reliable under all circumstances” (see correspondence attached).
A chicane would have forced all cars, including those with tyres optimised for high-speed, to run on a circuit whose characteristics had changed fundamentally – from ultra-high speed (because of turn 13) to very slow and twisting. It would also have involved changing the circuit without following any of the modern safety procedures, possibly with implications for the cars and their brakes. It is not difficult to imagine the reaction of an American court had there been an accident (whatever its cause) with the FIA having to admit it had failed to follow its own rules and safety procedures.
The reason for this debacle is clear. Each team is allowed to bring two types of tyre: one an on-the-limit potential race winner, the other a back-up which, although slower, is absolutely reliable. Apparently, none of the Michelin teams brought a back-up to Indianapolis. They subsequently announced they were flying in new tyres from France but then claimed that these too were unsafe.
What about the American fans? What about Formula One fans world-wide? Rather than boycott the race the Michelin teams should have agreed to run at reduced speed in turn 13. The rules would have been kept, they would have earned Championship points and the fans would have had a race. As it is, by refusing to run unless the FIA broke the rules and handicapped the Bridgestone runners, they have damaged themselves and the sport.
It should also be made clear that Formula One Management and Indianapolis Motor Speedway, as commercial entities, can have no role in the enforcement of the rules.
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Please explain to me how the above points to Ferrari, and not Mich or the teams who run Mich tyres, being a culprit in this fiasco.
seeyuzz
river
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Adelaide - Race Central
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June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 02:42
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i of all people do not blame ferrari. all i'm saying is that they could have helped the situation by agreeing for a chicane, or regular pitstops. by not agreeing, i think they added to the specticle that became INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK!!!
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June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 02:57
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Obviously Ferrari didn't start the problem, but they could've put their hat in with EVERY OTHER TEAM to solve it.
I don't think you're fully with Me on the legal ramifications of sending the Michelin cars out under instruction to slow down a bit for Turns 12/13 - Michelin can't control the drivers or teams' actions sufficiently to guarantee the safety of their product. The idea of letting them self-regulate their speed whilst racing for position is absurd! Even if you preset a speed into a secondary pit-lane speed limiter button, what's to stop the teams from playing with the software to give an extra couple-O-kays? would there be lines marked on the circuit for the speed-zone? Would Michelin be policing their own tyres with a radar gun and handing out unofficial stop-go penalties? Drivers would be pushing their luck to make that pass, and chances are someone would eventually blow a tyre. That lands Michelin in the pooh with U.S. Law.
The FIA is just trying to cover its own arse by taking the moral high ground. They knew Michelin couldn't compete with conditions as they were. To allow a proper race to happen there was ample opportunity to sit down with the team principles and tech-directors Saturday after qualifying. They could have agreed on the chicane and unabated racing, and decided on say . . a delayed start from the back of the grid, or stop-go penalties for the Michelin boys.
That would have allowed Saturday arvo/evening to agree on a safe layout, saturday night/sunday morning to build it, and sunday morning could have had a 20min warmup, with say - 20kgs extra fuel in each car for the start.
But Nooooooooooooooooo . . 
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 03:16
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Although they are race car drivers, the option the FIA put forth to the Mich teams to slowdown on turns 12/13 were dismissed. If the Mich teams accepted this then they could of run without penalty
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Err - wtf? Run without penalty? If all the Michelin runners had to slow down for turns 12/13 then isn't that a penalty? Plus I doubt that (although it may not appear this way) that the Michelin teams would've been anywhere near the points if they had run the race this way - they would've got 7th and 8th and would've probably finished a lap behing. To be honest, I don't see it as a clever solution
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The Bridgestone teams had set up their tryes and suspension for the fast turn 12/13 circuit and the inclusion of a chicane would of put them at a disadvantage by changing the course. There is no reason why the Bridge teams should be penalised for the lack of Mich ability to produce a safe tyre.
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So you think that Michelin teams had all set up their cars and tyres to suit the chicane circuit - and it was all part of some big conspiracy to change the nature of the track to suit all the Michelin teams and snare them a win? Michelin have no need to try those sorts of ridiculous tactics, they are winning just fine so far this year without resorting to that.
ALL the teams had set themselves up for the track as it was - with the fast turns 12/13 - no team had decided before the race that it was going to try and use political force to create a chicane at those turns. What I'm saying is - NO disadvantage would be paid to the bridgestone teams if the chicane had been put in place. All cars would've had to run on the same track.
Okay you might argue that Bridgestone had a sure win up it's sleeve because it had a better tyre for the track (as it was) than Michelin did, and Michelin responsibly declared their tyres unsafe - albeit at the last minute. Just because Bridgestone had a plethora of data on hand is not a reason to begrudge them - and the fact that the data was not on hand doesn't fully excuse Michelin either.
However, above all, the fans got absolutely ass-munched because they paid money to see a race and saw a shambles instead because the FIA, the tyre manufacturers and the teams couldn't be arsed collaborating on a solution that would *include* the fans as beneficiaries - simply because they all only care about themselves.
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June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 03:29
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Hi,
I fully understand the legal ramifications - especially in the USA. If this had been in another country perhaps the race would of been run will all contenders.
It is for the same legal ramifications that the FIA did not want to put in a chicane, due to the extra work, safety issues and other concerns. The track would have to checked and the cars would all have to go out and retune their suspensions and setups, and I doubt that could all be properly achieved in a day.
The proposal of a chicane was between Michelin and the FIA. It wasn't offered to the teams. The FIA shitcanned that idea without going to the teams for their approval or disapproval.
From what I've read on the F1 sites, the discussions the teams had was basically that if the Mich runners can't get things changed to allow them to run then they should all boycott the race. Ferrari did not want to do that. If Ferrari did boycott the race with all the other teams then there'd be no race at all 'cos I doubt the FIA would back down.
I have no idea how the FIA was going to police the speeds of Mich cars into turn 12/13. It was an offer they put on the table and it was rejected. I agree totally with you in regards to someone blowing a tyre and getting into the legal mess of the USA. Possibly Mich declined that offer as you mentioned in regards to not being able to control the teams.
The FIA needs to have a long hard look at its rules and regulations and needs to come up with something that allows the rare and inevitable occurances like this to be avoided, or specialised rules to permit a race to go ahead.
In the end, the race was a farce, an embarrasment and makes the F1 look very stupid and shows little regard for the huge fan base it has.
I'd love to be a fly on the wall in the meetings that must be going on right now in the FIA. I want to see all the cars race, but unfortunately this will turn into a legal quadmire and further diminish the sport.
seeyuzz
river
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Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 03:36
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| RWDboy wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 13:16 |
However, above all, the fans got absolutely ass-munched because they paid money to see a race and saw a shambles instead because the FIA, the tyre manufacturers and the teams couldn't be arsed collaborating on a solution that would *include* the fans as beneficiaries - simply because they all only care about themselves.
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totally..
i don't see ferrari as being at fault, but i think as THE premier team (in terms of money and fans) that they would have a vested interest in putting on a good show. By being the only competitive team racing, it shows that the have absolute disregard for the sport.
now if all the teams were free to choose either michelin OR bridgestone at any particular race.... then there could have been all cars on track (albeit with a setup penalty) and a big win for bridgestone PR...
i personally think indy cars are more exciting to watch.. less technology, but they have different tyres to use during the race (they have to swap compounds), push-to-pass.. and evenly matched cars.. all makes for exciting racing..
F1 is great for car nerds and materials engineers (like me ) but for the average joe, it's lookin like a dead duck.
Cya, Stewart
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 03:44
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| RWDboy wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 13:16 |
Err - wtf? Run without penalty? If all the Michelin runners had to slow down for turns 12/13 then isn't that a penalty? Plus I doubt that (although it may not appear this way) that the Michelin teams would've been anywhere near the points if they had run the race this way - they would've got 7th and 8th and would've probably finished a lap behing. To be honest, I don't see it as a clever solution
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No, it's not a clever solution and the penalty would of been the Mich cars inability to keep up with the Bridge runners. However, it was a solution that would of let the public see some semblence of a race rather then the farcical 6 car race that was put on
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So you think that Michelin teams had all set up their cars and tyres to suit the chicane circuit - and it was all part of some big conspiracy to change the nature of the track to suit all the Michelin teams and snare them a win? Michelin have no need to try those sorts of ridiculous tactics, they are winning just fine so far this year without resorting to that.
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That was my bad. Yes, all cars were set up for the track in its current form. Mich do not need to, nor do I imply they have to, employ such tactics to win.
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ALL the teams had set themselves up for the track as it was - with the fast turns 12/13 - no team had decided before the race that it was going to try and use political force to create a chicane at those turns. What I'm saying is - NO disadvantage would be paid to the bridgestone teams if the chicane had been put in place. All cars would've had to run on the same track.
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No argument here. But the FIA did not approve of any track changes.
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However, above all, the fans got absolutely ass-munched because they paid money to see a race and saw a shambles instead because the FIA, the tyre manufacturers and the teams couldn't be arsed collaborating on a solution that would *include* the fans as beneficiaries - simply because they all only care about themselves.
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Totally agree. It saddens me that when big business and big money gets involved in sport that sportsmanship goes out the door and it's all about the rules, the money, governance, the money and more money.
seeyuzz
river
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 03:58
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 13:36 |
i don't see ferrari as being at fault, but i think as THE premier team (in terms of money and fans) that they would have a vested interest in putting on a good show. By being the only competitive team racing, it shows that the have absolute disregard for the sport.
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I think Toyota may have more money than Ferrari. If Ferrari elected to boycot the race with all the other teams then there'd be no race. The 6 car race was stupid, but the choice was that or no race at all. I doubt the FIA would be held to ransom and wouldn't bow down to pressure and let the race be run under the conditions specified by the teams.
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now if all the teams were free to choose either michelin OR bridgestone at any particular race.... then there could have been all cars on track (albeit with a setup penalty) and a big win for bridgestone PR...
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Tyre sponsorship and stupid rules stop a smart idea like this being adopted.
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i personally think indy cars are more exciting to watch.. less technology, but they have different tyres to use during the race (they have to swap compounds), push-to-pass.. and evenly matched cars.. all makes for exciting racing..
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American shit. Just can't get into it. Sort of like their Nascars and Dragsters. There's something definably American and fake and ... I dunno exactly what it is.. but it doesn't do it for me. In regards to tyres... I've said it on other F1 threads in these forums... I don't like the rule that says you have to run the one set of tyres for the whole race. Sure, start the race on the tryes you qualified with, but you should be able to change tyres during the race, just like they did last year. And, if it wasn't for that stupid rule change, the cars would of all raced and been able to change tyres as desired. Plus, it makes the pit stops more exciting... certainly better than watching some bozo fill a fuel tank.
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F1 is great for car nerds and materials engineers (like me ) but for the average joe, it's lookin like a dead duck.
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seeyuzz
river
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July 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 04:25
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Just remember we all have Bernie Ecclestone and his corporatisation of formula one during the late 70's - 80's into the monster we now know of as the FIA. This has become such a money orientated sport, that it is no longer about a race, its a money making venture with cars going round in circles as a sideshow. There are so many groups with so much cash involved, that when it comes to making rules and decisions, so many people have to have their say that by the end of the process it all ends up being a complete farce.
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 05:36
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What I really don't get is Bernie Ecclestone NOT pulling every string He could get his hands on to make the race run!!! He schmoozed & dealed long and hard to get the U.S. GP happening at indy, and WAS looking at a goldmine in future T.V. revenue if F1 ever took off in the 'states. He would've appreciated better than almost anyone else in F1 the kind of damage this Flog-Fest will do to the sport's reputation.
I guarantee that the only interest in F1 from America now will be the Diehard old-skool fans, which are few in number (relatively speaking) and not gaining new followers.
Oh well - a second race for Australia perhaps?
Bathurst?
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eastern suburbs, melbourne
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March 2005
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 05:39
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i didnt actually watch the race and just found out about it this morn, but im spewing to have missed it. it would have been exciting to see the start with all the controversy.
but i dont see any probs here. if the equiptment they bring isnt good enough then tuff. its a competative sport and these teams (especially ferrari) have spent millions to win, not to be nice to their fellow teams. they had to right to disaprove the chicane according to the rules and they did. its not like they cheated or anything.
the rules where not broken and noone did anything wrong, apart from michellin not producing a tyre up to standards.
SUCK SHIT to the cars that didnt race. if u dont like it get the fuck out of the sport.
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 06:03
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you all just want the opportunity to use the word "farce"
i feel this whole farce as a good thing, consider this word farce being added to the vocabularies of millions of people around the world. The FIA did all of them a farcing favour!
i mean what a farce who would have thought this farce could have been such a farce. Before this farce most of you commenting on this farce couldnt have farced a farce on the farcingest day of your life if you had a electrified farcing machine!
OMGFARCE
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Coffs Harbour, NSW
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 07:23
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| st184 sillycar wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 15:36 |
What I really don't get is Bernie Ecclestone NOT pulling every string He could get his hands on to make the race run!!! He schmoozed & dealed long and hard to get the U.S. GP happening at indy, and WAS looking at a goldmine in future T.V. revenue if F1 ever took off in the 'states. He would've appreciated better than almost anyone else in F1 the kind of damage this Flog-Fest will do to the sport's reputation.
I guarantee that the only interest in F1 from America now will be the Diehard old-skool fans, which are few in number (relatively speaking) and not gaining new followers.
Oh well - a second race for Australia perhaps?
Bathurst?
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id love to see them @ bathurst for an endurance event say 6-12 hours
i believe that the fia owe this to the fans and there sould be several held, one for each continent/global area
also to make it interesting maybe make it double points
at the end fo the day i personally believe the fia showed its incompetence in resolving complex issues
michilen fuxored up big time due to lack of data beforehand
bridgestone cheated by gaining extra data outside the foruma which i personally consider illegal testing
ferarri showed no respect to the sport or fans and showed their absolute arrogance and contempt towards anyone else besides ferarri
people have suggested that they should slow down yet this is akin t o a footy side beign asked to only tackle every thrid player or asking brett lee only to bowl below 120kph due to failing stumps and bats
it is a sport not a business and everyone thats involved in it has forgotten that and should be ashamed of themselves
btw i wonder what enzo would be thinking
another thing is that rules were broken, twice by ferarri
the first is mentioned above
the second is the use of team orders
rob
farce off
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Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
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January 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 08:20
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| 4DaDrift wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 17:23 |
another thing is that rules were broken, twice by ferarri
the first is mentioned above
the second is the use of team orders
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michael had to get a win this season somehow
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June 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 12:37
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| 4DaDrift wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 17:23 |
at the end fo the day i personally believe the fia showed its incompetence in resolving complex issues
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Agreed.
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michilen fuxored up big time due to lack of data beforehand
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Agreed.
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bridgestone cheated by gaining extra data outside the foruma which i personally consider illegal testing
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What Bridgestone did was legal and within the rules. If it wasn't then they'd be pinged for it. Whether you personally think it was cheating is an issue you'll have to deal with yourself.
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ferarri showed no respect to the sport or fans and showed their absolute arrogance and contempt towards anyone else besides ferarri
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Rubbish. The only involvement Ferrari had was in the all-team meeting where the Mich teams wanted all teams to boycot the race. Ferrari didn't want to do that, and why should they. They did nothing wrong, they had good tyres (and I'm sure Bridgestone were keen to compete) plus they have sponsors that want their cars circulating. The decision regarding slowing down into the corners and/or the addition of a chicane had nothing to do with Ferrari - it was between Michelin and the FIA. If anything Ferrari made sure there was a race, even though there were only 6 cars. Ferrari at least gave the crowd something to see - it wasn't much of a race (damn I'd like to use "farce" but I'm afraid of Rob's wrath), but some cars were circulating. The only other alternative, seeing the Mich teams were unwilling to compromise, would of been no race. Is that what you would of preferred? No race to be run at all?
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people have suggested that they should slow down yet this is akin t o a footy side beign asked to only tackle every thrid player or asking brett lee only to bowl below 120kph due to failing stumps and bats
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It wasn't "people" who made this suggestion, it was the FIA who made it in response to Michelin who wanted a chicane. The FIA refused the addition of a chicane and suggested the teams to slow down a bit on the fast 12/13 turns.
Your cricket/league analogy isn't quite correct. Using your analogy would be more accurate if you added that the Aussie cricket team had 10 bowlers instead of 5 and the footy team had 20 players isntead of 13. Because these teams have to bypass the rules and regulations to play they must pay some penalty.
A more accurate footy analogy... Canterbury (Mich tyre team) comes to the paddock with 20 players vs Cronulla (Bridge tyre team)with the normal 13 players. Canterbury are told, as per your example, they can only tackle x times (or whatever) as a handicap to allow for them to play within the rules of the game. Canterbury refuses and demands that Cronulla either boycot the game (along with Canterbury) or get some extra men and make it even. Cronulla says it won't do this as it is playing within the defined rules of the game. So, Canterbury takes it's bat and ball and goes home and doesn't play. Your argument specifies that Cronulla are at fault and the cause of the no game. Wrong, it is Canterbury who are at fault.
You seem quite content to berate Ferrari, yet seemed to have forgotten that in this case they were within the rules and were ready and willing to race. It was the Mich teams who refused to race. It was the Mich teams who said they couldn't slow down on the fast corners. It was the Mich teams who wanted the course changed to suit their lack of quality tyres. It was the Mich teams who refused to race unless the rules were changed to make up for their lack of tyre strategy.
If you have issues or a personal dislike for Ferrari and are incapable of looking at the situation objectively then just admit it. But don't keep involving them in this discussion without facts. You're looking at it from one perspective, which is totally different to your initial post which started this thread (which, I may add, I am in total agreeance with).
If the tables were turned and it was the three Bridgestone teams that couldn't race, I wonder if the Mich teams would be so accomodating to changing the rules to let them race, or go with the three teams on a boycot of the race. I very much doubt it. And I'd doubt this thread would of been created, let alone created such lengthy discussions.
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it is a sport not a business and everyone thats involved in it has forgotten that and should be ashamed of themselves
btw i wonder what enzo would be thinking
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No, it's a business. As soon as big sponsorship and big business gets invovled in anything it is for the money. Sadly sportmanship plays a distant second fiddle to profits.
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another thing is that rules were broken, twice by ferarri
the first is mentioned above
the second is the use of team orders
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The first? In regards to the team orders, the rules were changed after it occurred - similar to how the cricket rules were changed after Australia bowled underarm.
seeyuzz
river
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 14:01
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river
perhaps some if it was technically legal so once again the fia have another case to answer to if some of my grievances are in that catogry
regardless id be happier to see irl f1 and champ combined into a 20+ round serioes around the world with encouragement for old teams like lotus and repco and more person based teams with only limited places for corporations even fi this means a mutual interest of ours (toyota) are one of the losers
bring back the days where it was about the drivers and not the computer power on board the car ( probably part fo the reason mark and mick suxors @ starts ) yet still encourage advancements like fans for downforce (even thou that example would be illegal)
also introduce several longer range events that go for 6 hours at traditional and famous courses aroudn the world that have died or are dying
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 14:02
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I just wanted to say that Bernie Ecclestone has very little - if anything - to do with the FIA. He 'manages' (actually owns is a more appropriate term, although I don't think he owns as much as he used to these days) the commercial side of the Formula 1, he merely speaks up about stuff every now and then and applies pressure to Max Mosley (the President of the FIA) to make changes when the sport is sucking arse. I think he is a representative on the board the working group for Formula 1, that means he has a vote on the board, but not much more.
I don't mind Bernie Ecclestone as much as I used to, but I do think Max Mosley (sp?) is a total idiot. Jackie Stewart is also highly to blame for the way the sport is nowadays - but I don't really blame him for everything - making the sport safer *had* to be done, but I think the way it was gone about was a bit screwy.
Firestone is a subsidiary of Bridgestone, which basically means that they can share all the data they like - I don't regard it as cheating now, but it should be addressed in the future when there is a large imbalance between available data at particular tracks for tyre manufacturers.
Everyone saying that it is all Ferrari's fault is way off the mark, and you are probably suffering from tall-poppy syndrome See your local GP.
If you want to blame anyone for the problem, blame Michelin. If you want to blame anyone for not coming up with a solution, blame the FIA. Even though Michelin did not agree to some solutions offered by the FIA - there was reasoning, ideals and some logic behind their refusal to comply - it's the FIA's responsibility to manage and regulate the sport and they failed in their duties to do so, as they have been for a long time now.
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 14:18
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| 4DaDrift wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 23:31 |
regardless id be happier to see irl f1 and champ combined into a 20+ round serioes around the world with encouragement for old teams like lotus and repco and more person based teams with only limited places for corporations even fi this means a mutual interest of ours (toyota) are one of the losers
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Living in the past dude The 'philosophy' behind formula 1 has always been 'the best of the best'...fastest cars, fastest drivers, biggest technical innovations, biggest budgets. There is too much money getting in the way of change, thankfully it's starting to fall apart at the seams, and eventually it'll crash and die, and be replaced with a better formula that I hope has a more broad philosophy guiding it and hopefully Max Mosely (canot speel propery) and the other spodgy old farts high up in the FIA have nothing to do with it.
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bring back the days where it was about the drivers and not the computer power on board the car ( probably part fo the reason mark and mick suxors @ starts ) yet still encourage advancements like fans for downforce (even thou that example would be illegal)
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There are so many factors as to why the races are boring these days, and to be honest, drivers is one of them! The drivers are all ridiculously accurate, and ridiculously fast - what usually decides a race is tenths of seconds found in aerodynamics, mechanical setup and strategy. Of course - drivers face fewer challenges these days, they have unprecedented levels of mechanical and 'aerodynamic' grip, highly advanced traction control and fully sequential transmissions - but that doesn't mean they are crap by any measure.
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also introduce several longer range events that go for 6 hours at traditional and famous courses aroudn the world that have died or are dying
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Again, the reason that these tracks aren't used is because of finances, to change the cars significantly for one or two events is going to cause huge budgetry problems for the team - because the technical regulations don't really enforce a minimum spec for how strong/heavy the suspension components need to be, how much load the cars have to take etc etc, the modern cars simply can't survive even one lap around tracks like the old Nordschleife circuit, or one run around Bathurst.
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 14:25
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so in a round about way your stating that the V8 supercars are better engineered than F1 which is supposivelly the pinnacle of motor sport ?
if not then whats stoppign them engineerign the cars to cope with these tracks ?
if its money theyre kiddign themselves
if its rules , change them
funnily enough i agree with the rule of limiting ballats and ensuring that the minimum weight remains the same as this ballast used for handling stability and performance wil be returned back to the chassis and key coponents so they dont fail disintegrate etc
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 14:42
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summary of proposed 08 rule changes..... if you want the full document
soem good points going in the right direction her thou some are rediculous
http://www.grandprix.com/ns/ns15044.html
Control tyres are in...and proposal is slicks!
Manual gearboxes
Introduction of a lot of FIA 'designated suppliers' for gearboxes, ECU, Brakes etc. (Plenty of opportunity for Max/FIA to get backhanders?)
Testing limits (ECU units will have what sounds like a truck style tachograph which will alert Max as soon as they go testing!)
A team will be able to go out and buy another teams car if it wants???
- expensive technology which is invisible to the public and known only to a tiny band of specialist engineers should be eliminated where possible;
- expensive materials or designs should not be used as a substitute for good engineering;
- driver aids should be eliminated as far as possible. In particular the use of electronic devices should not be allowed to replace driver skills;
- downforce should be drastically reduced and "mechanical" grip increased substantially for closer racing.
Summary of the main changes proposed for 2008......
ENGINES
- All components of the engine will be controlled by an Electronic Control Unit (ECU) which has been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
- The ECU may only be used with FIA approved software and may only be connected to the control system wiring loom, sensors and actuators as specified by the FIA
- All control sensors, actuators and FIA monitoring sensors will be specified and homologated by the FIA
- The control system wiring loom connectivity will be specified by the FIA
- A 3 litre V10 engine will remain an option for teams unable to obtain a 2.4 litre V8, but subject to similar strict performance limitations as in 2006 and 2007
Reasons
- to eliminate the use of driver aids such as traction control
- as teams will not be able to develop their own ECUs, expenditure on electronics will be considerably reduced
- to allow the FIA to check testing mileage and other elements
- to keep engine costs low for the smaller independent teams
GEARBOXES
- All cars will be fitted with gear ratios, final drive ratios and differentials which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
- Gear changing will only be permitted by the use of a manually operated mechanical linkage to the gearbox
- Clutches will only be operated via a foot pedal connected mechanically to a release mechanism
Reasons
- to restore control over the clutch and gear changing to the driver
- the use of standard gearbox internals will result in a very significant reduction in expenditure
BODYWORK
- Downforce will be reduced to approximately 10% of current levels
- Drag will be maintained at current levels
- Overall car width will be increased
- By stipulating maximum and minimum dimensions cars will be "cleaned up" with devices such as barge boards, flip ups, winglets and other small add on parts removed
- Total advertising area on the car to remain unchanged
Reasons
- to reduce the reliance upon downforce as a means of improving performance
- by increasing mechanical grip the likelihood of one car being able to follow another closely in corners, and hence be in an attacking position at the end of the following straight, will be increased
- eliminating winglets, bargeboards, etc, will reduce costs as well as the danger of debris on the circuits
- drag should remain unchanged in order to ensure straight line speeds do not increase significantly
WHEELS AND TYRES
- Tyres will be supplied by one manufacturer appointed by the FIA after an invitation to tender. Such an appointment will be conditional upon :
- a suitable supplier being available ;
- a suitable system to ensure tyre testing is carried out in an equitable manner ;
- no team being disadvantaged by the appointment of a single supplier (detailed regulations will be written to ensure this would not be the case) ;
- there being no legal impediments during the process of appointing a supplier
- Slick tyres will be introduced for use in dry weather
- Lower profile tyres will be introduced
- Significantly larger wheels with minimum and maximum sizes stipulated for front and rear will be permitted
- Tyre blankets and other heating devices will be prohibited
- All tyre regulations will reside in the Technical Regulations
Reasons
- a single supplier would allow a bigger safety margin
- the absence of competitive tyre testing would reduce costs
- as relatively small differences in tyre compound and construction can have a significant effect on lap times, a single tyre supplier would simply ensure that no team would be adversely affected by being contracted to the "wrong" supplier
- slick tyres would be re-introduced as a part of the low-downforce and high-mechanical-grip package
- lower profile tyres would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tyres a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes and suspension
- a ban on tyre heating devices would eliminate this significant but unnecessary expenditure
CHASSIS
- The minimum height of the centre of gravity of the chassis will be specified
- The minimum weight for a chassis will be specified
- Energy of all impact tests will be increased
- Loads for all static tests will be increased
- Side intrusion test requirements will be increased
- Ballast will be reduced to minimal levels
Reasons
- to ensure that weight is distributed throughout the chassis
- the centre of gravity requirement should result in less pure ballast being used, the minimum weight will have to be achieved by the construction of a stronger chassis
- by raising the impact test speeds, the static load criteria on structures such as roll hoops and increasing the penetration resistance, drivers will be even better protected than they are at present
BRAKES
- All cars will be fitted with brake discs, pads and callipers which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
Reason
- to reduce the cost of continual development of new materials and designs, the FIA specified products will be designed to work on all types of track and last an entire Grand Prix weekend
DATA ACQUISITION AND TELEMETRY
- With specific exceptions, any data acquisition system, telemetry system or associated sensors additional to those associated with the ECU will be physically separate and completely isolated from the control electronics
- Pit to car telemetry will be prohibited
Reasons
- to ensure that any data acquisition system used by a team cannot interfere with the FIA specified ECU and sensors
- to ensure teams are unable to send messages to a car and potentially affect its performance
MATERIALS
- Limitations, similar to those within the 2006 engine regulations, will be imposed on all parts of the car
Reason
- costs will be reduced as research into exotic materials will be unnecessary
STARTER
- All cars will be equipped with a driver operated starter which is capable of starting the car without outside assistance a minimum number of times
Reasons
- to simplify the operation of starting a car, at present it is massively complex
GEARBOXES
- All cars will be fitted with gear ratios, final drive ratios and differentials which have been manufactured by an FIA designated supplier to an agreed specification
- Gear changing will only be permitted by the use of a manually operated mechanical linkage to the gearbox
- Clutches will only be operated via a foot pedal connected mechanically to a release mechanism
Reasons
- to restore control over the clutch and gear changing to the driver
- the use of standard gearbox internals will result in a very significant reduction in expenditure
WHEELS AND TYRES
- Tyres will be supplied by one manufacturer appointed by the FIA after an invitation to tender. Such an appointment will be conditional upon :
- a suitable supplier being available ;
- a suitable system to ensure tyre testing is carried out in an equitable manner ;
- no team being disadvantaged by the appointment of a single supplier (detailed regulations will be written to ensure this would not be the case) ;
- there being no legal impediments during the process of appointing a supplier
- Slick tyres will be introduced for use in dry weather
- Lower profile tyres will be introduced
- Significantly larger wheels with minimum and maximum sizes stipulated for front and rear will be permitted
- Tyre blankets and other heating devices will be prohibited
- All tyre regulations will reside in the Technical Regulations
Reasons
- a single supplier would allow a bigger safety margin
- the absence of competitive tyre testing would reduce costs
- as relatively small differences in tyre compound and construction can have a significant effect on lap times, a single tyre supplier would simply ensure that no team would be adversely affected by being contracted to the "wrong" supplier
- slick tyres would be re-introduced as a part of the low-downforce and high-mechanical-grip package
- lower profile tyres would be introduced in order to give the wheels and tyres a more modern look and also permit more freedom on brakes and suspension
- a ban on tyre heating devices would eliminate this significant but unnecessary expenditure
- How constructor's points are to be allocated will be clearly defined after further discussion
SPARE CARS
- Spare cars will be prohibited, i.e. no team may have more than two built-up cars available at an Event at any one time. Spare chassis will be permitted but precisely what constitutes a car in this context will be clearly defined
Reason
- by taking one car less to races teams will be able to save considerable sums of money as, apart from the cost of the car itself, fewer personnel will be needed
TESTING
- Testing will be limited to 30000km per team between 1st January and 31st December, subject to a single tyre supplier being appointed
Reason
- To reduce the enormous amounts of money currently being spent on testing
CAR ACQUISITION
- Teams will be free to buy a complete car or any part of a car from another constructor
Reason
- to enable a team to buy a complete car, or any part of a car, from another constructor. As a result teams will be able to save considerable sums of money on the design and development of their cars
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Tue, 21 June 2005 23:19
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| RWDboy wrote on Wed, 22 June 2005 00:02 |
I just wanted to say that Bernie Ecclestone has very little - if anything - to do with the FIA.
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What your forgetting is that while he may not play a role in the FIA, during the late 70's he was the driving force in setting up the F1 machine that we see today, which includes the FIA. This is all what has been quoted at being "the creation of a visionary genius"
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Wed, 22 June 2005 02:31
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The FIA has existed for a long time in various forms, in fact it's been around for 101 years. Bernie Ecclestone has only moulded F1 via influence - not direct command. He is only one factor amongst many, even if some people purport to give him more credit than he is due. He is responsible for the development of the sport as a commercial success, not as a successful racing formula.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: INDIANAPOLIS SHOCK !!!
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Wed, 22 June 2005 07:00
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I've gotten into this rather late and most things have been said.
I'll say one thing though, how can you blame Bridgestone for having insider knowledge?
Are tyre manufacturers not required to test their tyres? Michellin should've done testing at the track so that it would be prepared.
Simple as that.
It's a shame that this happened because getting the Americans into F1 would draw a lot more money into the sport.
Sadly, after this farce!, it will never be.
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