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nash_tz
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 06:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alliance_22 wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 14:19

i always had a dream

what if!!

What if toyota pulled back out the designs of the ae86, Celica St162-165, supra MA70 and manufacture say 1000 each of them....

then upgrade some things, like air bag and all that crap to do with compliance etc.... chuck in a bit of new designs interior, Sun roof, climate control etc. And then sell them to the younger generations for say 15k-25k range... u bet i'll be buying one!

Thing is if they are only making small amounts, they can do both ways a favour, they can keep us all happy, yet they will still make some money... altho0ught maybe not much, but it'll prolly give them an indication on just how important sporty cars are for the younger gens.

But then again, i doubt i'll ever see this day happen Rolling Eyes

With Nissan, i used to be a fan of it, till they stopped releasing 200sx and skylines and started pumping out Maximas and Pulsars.... i mean what a load of crap!! wheres the damm GTRs and SR20DET Silvias?? As if i'll drive a freekin Maxima cause its advertised as a 170kw car, and hoping we think its a sport car... get a life nissan - Australia!! not knocking the Nissan in Japan though Very Happy

Also, whats the Deal with Honda?? Why WHy why why why kill the Type R just cause of the freeking marketing purposes?? What point does that honestly make?? Now i cant tell the difference between buying a luxury integra and bying the so called Type S.... just that one has like 30KW extra.... wheres the Recaros?? Wheres all those good bits that used to be on the type R?? and WTF??? 43K for a Luxry sporty verion type S?? get a life!!

when i was planning on buying a new car, i wanted a COUPE... 2 door COUPE.... and its amazing that only so little is on the market....

Nissan: 350Z (60K Cant afford that)
Misut: Nothing
Subaru: Nothing
Mazda: RX8 (60K Not worth it) - personal opnion, looks shit to the RX7s
Ford: Nothing
Holden: Astra convertable (Again 50-55K)- Even then u have to think if its a sports car
Toyota: Eco, Celica and Mr2
BMW: Cant afford, look away
Merc: Ditto
Audi: Ditto

The only one out of the lot that may intrest me is the Celica, at least it gets a half decent shell that looks sporty and with a decent enough price range!!... would have been tops if it was a RWD.... So i guess Toyota isnt as bad as what others is.. still got some afordable fast cars.... but nothing like before man...

Celica ST162-165 3SGE and 5S-FE - Sleek looking, got the grunts, not expensive, although 5S-FE for the 185 is a step down from 3S-GE me thinks.
Supra MA70 - Got Shit loads of grunt, good looks, but dearer
MR2 SW20 - Shat hot looks, "3S-GE", got grunts, WOOT RWD!!

im sure theres also others ppl know are good cars, but on top of my head, these were tops!!


I want to know how a Toyota Echo made it into your coupe sport car list and a 2 door STi didn't. You also forgot the MX5, the only affordable brand new sports car in my opinion. Alot here seem to say that you aren't too fussed about power as you are it being fun and good handling. The MX5 has probably better handling than anything Toyota ever brought out, but they are not exactly flying out of dealerships are they? You will never see a sports car under 40k new in Australia, you've got low spec WRX's, MX5's and V8 Holdens and Fords thats about it. Fast = expensive, if it costs 25k to get ahold of a new Corolla, imagine how much a turbo car would cost as it needs nearly every component strengthened to handle the extra power reliably. Anyone remember the turbo model corolla released a few years back? It was around 40k (wrx money) and it tanked hard. It was slow and handled like crap.

You guys are also forgetting that USA is the biggest export market for Japanese cars and the low end consumer market they despise RWDs and feel they are too unpredictable in icy conditions every winter. While real enthusiasts over there enjoy RWD, they certainly wouldn't be buying brand new economy sports cars. The Australian new car market is small and it is controlled by an older market segment that wants reliable boring cars that won't stick out too much and make their friends think they are show off cock heads. Toyota is the most successful car company in the WORLD, I say we enjoy our cheap second hand imports and be happy that our import laws aren't as strict as in other countries like the US.
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 06:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bubbles wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 11:51

Toyota has to make a profit, not a sale (sales less costs). Also car markets are driven by the consumer (majority, not us) and also there are guidelines that they have to follow, and then theres the budget.
They made supras, mr2's, chasers, etc. But hardly any of these where sold by toyota australia, same goes to nissan, mazda and mitsubishi. Not saying that they can't do it but it will be a huge gamble.



and how do they plan to make a profit when their current base of loyal buyers die and the current younger market view tham as boring underengineered and souless
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 06:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
nash_tz wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 17:35

alliance_22 wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 14:19

i always had a dream

what if!!

What if toyota pulled back out the designs of the ae86, Celica St162-165, supra MA70 and manufacture say 1000 each of them....

then upgrade some things, like air bag and all that crap to do with compliance etc.... chuck in a bit of new designs interior, Sun roof, climate control etc. And then sell them to the younger generations for say 15k-25k range... u bet i'll be buying one!

Thing is if they are only making small amounts, they can do both ways a favour, they can keep us all happy, yet they will still make some money... altho0ught maybe not much, but it'll prolly give them an indication on just how important sporty cars are for the younger gens.

But then again, i doubt i'll ever see this day happen Rolling Eyes

With Nissan, i used to be a fan of it, till they stopped releasing 200sx and skylines and started pumping out Maximas and Pulsars.... i mean what a load of crap!! wheres the damm GTRs and SR20DET Silvias?? As if i'll drive a freekin Maxima cause its advertised as a 170kw car, and hoping we think its a sport car... get a life nissan - Australia!! not knocking the Nissan in Japan though Very Happy

Also, whats the Deal with Honda?? Why WHy why why why kill the Type R just cause of the freeking marketing purposes?? What point does that honestly make?? Now i cant tell the difference between buying a luxury integra and bying the so called Type S.... just that one has like 30KW extra.... wheres the Recaros?? Wheres all those good bits that used to be on the type R?? and WTF??? 43K for a Luxry sporty verion type S?? get a life!!

when i was planning on buying a new car, i wanted a COUPE... 2 door COUPE.... and its amazing that only so little is on the market....

Nissan: 350Z (60K Cant afford that)
Misut: Nothing
Subaru: Nothing
Mazda: RX8 (60K Not worth it) - personal opnion, looks shit to the RX7s
Ford: Nothing
Holden: Astra convertable (Again 50-55K)- Even then u have to think if its a sports car
Toyota: Eco, Celica and Mr2
BMW: Cant afford, look away
Merc: Ditto
Audi: Ditto

The only one out of the lot that may intrest me is the Celica, at least it gets a half decent shell that looks sporty and with a decent enough price range!!... would have been tops if it was a RWD.... So i guess Toyota isnt as bad as what others is.. still got some afordable fast cars.... but nothing like before man...

Celica ST162-165 3SGE and 5S-FE - Sleek looking, got the grunts, not expensive, although 5S-FE for the 185 is a step down from 3S-GE me thinks.
Supra MA70 - Got Shit loads of grunt, good looks, but dearer
MR2 SW20 - Shat hot looks, "3S-GE", got grunts, WOOT RWD!!

im sure theres also others ppl know are good cars, but on top of my head, these were tops!!


I want to know how a Toyota Echo made it into your coupe sport car list and a 2 door STi didn't. You also forgot the MX5, the only affordable brand new sports car in my opinion. Alot here seem to say that you aren't too fussed about power as you are it being fun and good handling. The MX5 has probably better handling than anything Toyota ever brought out, but they are not exactly flying out of dealerships are they? You will never see a sports car under 40k new in Australia, you've got low spec WRX's, MX5's and V8 Holdens and Fords thats about it. Fast = expensive, if it costs 25k to get ahold of a new Corolla, imagine how much a turbo car would cost as it needs nearly every component strengthened to handle the extra power reliably. Anyone remember the turbo model corolla released a few years back? It was around 40k (wrx money) and it tanked hard. It was slow and handled like crap.

You guys are also forgetting that USA is the biggest export market for Japanese cars and the low end consumer market they despise RWDs and feel they are too unpredictable in icy conditions every winter. While real enthusiasts over there enjoy RWD, they certainly wouldn't be buying brand new economy sports cars. The Australian new car market is small and it is controlled by an older market segment that wants reliable boring cars that won't stick out too much and make their friends think they are show off cock heads. Toyota is the most successful car company in the WORLD, I say we enjoy our cheap second hand imports and be happy that our import laws aren't as strict as in other countries like the US.



umm members in here helped with feed back and actually designed that car accordign to limitations they had imposed
for the record ive seen them doing 14s in stock trim +zorst
thats not slow
and for the strengthening of parts
toyota ised to overengineer their parts as referenced back to the 4agze pistons ans stwearts study upon them concludign they were forged factory with soem form of coating possibly ceremic powder heat dissapating coating
as if we shoudl be dictated by the usa
theres still the rest of the world and rwd with awd options would alleviate their i cant drive fears
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shinybluesteel
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 07:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i have given a great deal of thought to this idea, well a fair bit.

as i am a graduate engineer, it was my intention to go through toyota's grad program and bring this point up, but i realised that this would have been brought up already, and toyota/japanese work ethic does not appeal to me.

also, a forum full of sprinter owners (such as myself) does not constitute an indication of a market that is busting to buy a ZZE86, although all of us would, but owning sprinters (in most cases) puts us in the poorest of the poor of sportscar owners unfortunately.

i think toyota should bring out the sprinter as a present to themselves, like the S2000 was to honda, from memory they didnt expect to make money out of it, is was just something they wanted to do.

i think one way to make this a reality is by designing the car to participate in a one make series, perhaps before a production model is even ready or whatever, just have all of the basic elemnts there and keep it cheap.

for me this would consist of:

start with a 2ZZGE (or a more RWD friendly 2.0 litre engine), mated to a 6 speed gearbox

macpherson struts all around, possibly double wishbone front, but you could easily leave this out for budget reasons,

LSD rear, just something cheap and nasty, like a vicious one.

4 wheel discs, inboard discs on the back end if you could do it easily.

i think it would be awesome to have "trueno" and "levin" versions, but i think pop up headlights are a bit of a no-no these days.

anyway, there is some rambling, the thing that annoys me is there is not even any chance of toyota developing a FWD car that isnt a porky top heavy looking thing, after i got over my irrational hatred of the whole FWD layout, i realised how awesome a light FWD could be, along the lines of a pug 205gti, but not so ugly.
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nash_tz
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 07:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
4DaDrift wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 17:56



umm members in here helped with feed back and actually designed that car accordign to limitations they had imposed
for the record ive seen them doing 14s in stock trim +zorst
thats not slow
and for the strengthening of parts
toyota ised to overengineer their parts as referenced back to the 4agze pistons ans stwearts study upon them concludign they were forged factory with soem form of coating possibly ceremic powder heat dissapating coating
as if we shoudl be dictated by the usa
theres still the rest of the world and rwd with awd options would alleviate their i cant drive fears



So you were happy with the pricing of the turbo corolla? You realise it was FWD and still around $40k and if it was made into RWD it would be even more expensive? I'm sorry but money and sales dictate what Toyota makes, and the cash is not coming from Australia and certainly is not coming from the young car enthusiasts segment with sub $20k budgets.
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 09:29 Go to previous messageGo to next message
4DaDrift wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 17:44

bubbles wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 11:51

Toyota has to make a profit, not a sale (sales less costs). Also car markets are driven by the consumer (majority, not us) and also there are guidelines that they have to follow, and then theres the budget.
They made supras, mr2's, chasers, etc. But hardly any of these where sold by toyota australia, same goes to nissan, mazda and mitsubishi. Not saying that they can't do it but it will be a huge gamble.



and how do they plan to make a profit when their current base of loyal buyers die and the current younger market view tham as boring underengineered and souless



Toyota is still number 1 in car sales
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 09:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Intensevil wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 12:55

huge gamebls, even if they fail misurably its not like the company would go under or anything so theres not that much at risk. and knowing toyota if they put their minds to it they could pull it off and it would be a huge success.

They've just shown the world that new supercar that their making, how much proffit is that going to make them?! its a very niche car that very few can afford. whereas a rwd sport hatch is suitable for a whole host of people (it can be a shopping trolly 1zz-fe or spastic little hot hatch 2zz-ge).

Most people couldnt give a crap what sort of drive train a car has, they buy a car based on 2 main factors, Looks and price.


Really? What happen to Lancia?
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 09:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bubbles wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 20:33

Intensevil wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 12:55

huge gamebls, even if they fail misurably its not like the company would go under or anything so theres not that much at risk. and knowing toyota if they put their minds to it they could pull it off and it would be a huge success.

They've just shown the world that new supercar that their making, how much proffit is that going to make them?! its a very niche car that very few can afford. whereas a rwd sport hatch is suitable for a whole host of people (it can be a shopping trolly 1zz-fe or spastic little hot hatch 2zz-ge).

Most people couldnt give a crap what sort of drive train a car has, they buy a car based on 2 main factors, Looks and price.


Really? What happen to Lancia?

Its a good thing they made a small production of gt4's.
They would be better of doind a v12 supra to compete agains ferrari, porche.

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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 09:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
bubbles wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 20:29

4DaDrift wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 17:44

bubbles wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 11:51

Toyota has to make a profit, not a sale (sales less costs). Also car markets are driven by the consumer (majority, not us) and also there are guidelines that they have to follow, and then theres the budget.
They made supras, mr2's, chasers, etc. But hardly any of these where sold by toyota australia, same goes to nissan, mazda and mitsubishi. Not saying that they can't do it but it will be a huge gamble.



and how do they plan to make a profit when their current base of loyal buyers die and the current younger market view tham as boring underengineered and souless



Toyota is still number 1 in car sales


they are NOW you fucking dolt.. what hes saying is when the current buyers of softcock toyotas die, no one will buy their shit

[Updated on: Mon, 17 January 2005 09:50]

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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 10:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ad the Gt4 is still the possibly the most successful of all toyotas on the international race scene in its different guises ( including the corolla AWD WRC car here - its basically a Gt4 )

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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 10:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
wanna blow that gt4 horn any harder stuart? Laughing heh
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 10:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
it deserves it Wink

* toot *
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 11:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
4DaDrift wrote on Sun, 16 January 2005 17:09

shcao wrote on Sun, 16 January 2005 11:23

it's all about supply/demand/cost

FWDs are cheaper to produce for toyota, (which passes on to the consumer)
have more cabin space for the passenger.
are perfectly fine (stability wise) for 4 cylinders.

Toyota is happy, *most* consumers are happy.
Thats all that matters.

--------

Toyota aren't going to spend millions of dollars developing a car for a *niche* market who are mostly young and can't afford to be driving a brand spanking new $30k++ car.

Lets face it, anything with guts, decent suspension and LS will be nothing less than 30k..

I think the day and age for a budget 4cyl rwd is over.



daym that attitude pisses me off
what ever happened to buyer power for staters
we are the market in the past now and for their future so they should be listening to us with what we want and not etlling us what they want us to buy
secondly its not that hard to product a cheap rwd with performane aspirations
build the base level as the new corolla with base level performane etc to start with
secondly this will attract a new younger parket to replace those who are nearign the edn of their lives
thirdly with the ammount of $$ the young generation spend on a new car (seriously think about how many of your friends associates etc and ppl you hear owing huge amounts of $$ for new or near new cars turned into show cars or daily drivers) as if a market isnt there
we should be demanding what we desire not whinging about whats alcking amd yes ive done my bit by forwarding a letter of complaint


Damn your attitude pisses me off. You say buyer power meaning consumer sovereignty. You've raised an excellent point:
They should be listening to us with what we want and not telling us.
HOW EXACTLY DO THEY DO THAT?


Does Toyota ring you up and say "Hi how was your day? What kind of car should we make for you?". NO!
The way we tell companies what we want is through what we BUY or DON'T BUY.
MR2 Spyders, they're not selling very well are they? This means Toyota Motor Corporation sees it as the Australian public not liking this kind of car -- so WHY sell it?!
Corollas, Camrys etc. ARE selling well. The Australian public loves them. Just so you know this is the Australian CAR BUYING public. The people that actually keep Toyota going. Not you or I who buy second hand cars. In case you didn't know, Toyota doesn't profit from the buying and selling of second hand vehicles.

Next, you're talking about how much young people are spending on modding their cars. Ok.. great. Just how many of these cars are NEW?
How many of these people do Toyota know? None. What they know is based on the sales figures.

Your third point that we should send letters COMPLAINING to Toyota makes me laugh. Hey Toyota you suck, make some RWD cars for us Toymodders and the like but don't worry about profit. You don't need it because you've got our love instead.
Nope, doesn't work that way. Just forget that you're making more money than any other car company. Sacrifice your profit for a tiny market that will love you forever and ever but won't actually buy your cars. Instead they will hope that lots of people purchase these cars and then try and buy them second hand.

I don't understand why it's so hard to see why Toyota won't bring out what you want. They are making money now and why stop a good thing? They have a responsibility as a company to themselves and to their shareholders. Amazing as it is, people who want to drift aren't on their minds 24/7.

If you want to show Toyota demand for RWD Toyota's, save your money and get out there and buy NEW MR2's or Altezzas. Be part of the new car buying public. Don't blame Toyota.
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 21:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
this thread = amusing
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 21:48 Go to previous messageGo to next message
It should be a present to themselves... as someone put it earlier.

Bring us a new hachi!
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 22:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/ melb04_2.htm

Toyota recently brought out a concept to "appeal to 14-19 year olds" but only for kids with really rich parents i think..
have a look
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Mon, 17 January 2005 22:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
HOT40K wrote on Tue, 18 January 2005 09:39

http://www.webwombat.com.au/motoring/news_reports/ melb04_2.htm

Toyota recently brought out a concept to "appeal to 14-19 year olds" but only for kids with really rich parents i think..
have a look


biggest wheel arches EVAR!
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 00:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
how about you guys truly be honest to yourselves and think for a moment.

With all the design concepts and criteria you have, do you REALY think this "all-new-bakka-hatchi-roku" will cost the consumer less than $50k??? No freaking way!!

Tell me ANYONE here who can afford a $30k car, let alone a $50k car. Now who thinks they can afford one in 10 years? 15 years?

If you dont understand my line of thinking, that means you have no grasp on the concept of proper business planning and management... and you are gay.
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 00:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
err by the wnd of this year I will be looking at buying a car worth around 30k
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nash_tz
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 00:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2005 11:03

err by the wnd of this year I will be looking at buying a car worth around 30k


If you are buying new, have fun in your FWD 4 cyl Mazda 3/Corolla/Focus/Astra because you certainly won't be getting anything resembling a sports car for 30k or less brand new.
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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 00:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I didn't specify I was looking at buying a new cra, atm I am contemplating a soarer although insurance is an issue cos I will only be 19. Other than that I wouldn't mind a clio sport. Cressida with a 1jzgte lot cheaper
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 06:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2005 11:41

I didn't specify I was looking at buying a new cra, atm I am contemplating a soarer although insurance is an issue cos I will only be 19. Other than that I wouldn't mind a clio sport. Cressida with a 1jzgte lot cheaper


damn, u must be doing quite well for yourself, getting a 30k car at 19! Shocked
btw, good on ya Very Happy
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 06:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corona RT142 wrote on Tue, 18 January 2005 11:41

I didn't specify I was looking at buying a new cra, atm I am contemplating a soarer although insurance is an issue cos I will only be 19. Other than that I wouldn't mind a clio sport. Cressida with a 1jzgte lot cheaper


Sorry I assumed you would be talking new, since this whole discussion is about whether Toyota should make a NEW rwd sports car.
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 18 January 2005 10:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shinybluesteel wrote on Mon, 17 January 2005 18:12

i have given a great deal of thought to this idea, well a fair bit.

as i am a graduate engineer, it was my intention to go through toyota's grad program and bring this point up, but i realised that this would have been brought up already, and toyota/japanese work ethic does not appeal to me.

also, a forum full of sprinter owners (such as myself) does not constitute an indication of a market that is busting to buy a ZZE86, although all of us would, but owning sprinters (in most cases) puts us in the poorest of the poor of sportscar owners unfortunately.

i think toyota should bring out the sprinter as a present to themselves, like the S2000 was to honda, from memory they didnt expect to make money out of it, is was just something they wanted to do.

i think one way to make this a reality is by designing the car to participate in a one make series, perhaps before a production model is even ready or whatever, just have all of the basic elemnts there and keep it cheap.

for me this would consist of:

start with a 2ZZGE (or a more RWD friendly 2.0 litre engine), mated to a 6 speed gearbox

macpherson struts all around, possibly double wishbone front, but you could easily leave this out for budget reasons,

LSD rear, just something cheap and nasty, like a vicious one.

4 wheel discs, inboard discs on the back end if you could do it easily.

i think it would be awesome to have "trueno" and "levin" versions, but i think pop up headlights are a bit of a no-no these days.

anyway, there is some rambling, the thing that annoys me is there is not even any chance of toyota developing a FWD car that isnt a porky top heavy looking thing, after i got over my irrational hatred of the whole FWD layout, i realised how awesome a light FWD could be, along the lines of a pug 205gti, but not so ugly.

toyota could never make a fwd car as good to drive as a peugeot 205 gti
that is why i own 1 and i rate it aver a ae86 for the grin factor
on my face every time i take it out
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st184 sillycar
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 19 January 2005 00:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
It's all well and good to say "toyota should build xxxx RWD car, they'd sell enough etc. etc." - But do you know how much it costs to design and engineer a new car? do you know how many years ahead car makers have to plan ahead for a new model? Do you know how much profit cars actually make nowadays?



For a new body on a mix of existing drivetrain and suspension components, you're talking minimum aus$700 million (don't even bother with new engine + new body + new drivetrain). That's if you only want 1 major body style, b.t.w. - start adding around $100 million per hatchback/2door/3door/4door/5door sister model. To manufacture a decent car on the cheap, costs around $15,000, plus around $5,000 to $8,000 in labour, transport, storage, quality control etc. etc. - now do the maths on how many you've got to sell to make the development costs back if you price them "affordably", i.e. $25,000 or $30,000


Even if they had a market today for a cheap, quick RWD car, they've got a lead time of conception to release of 5-8 years. What if the market's changed when the car's released?


-D'ya geddit?

(This is why the S2000 is like, $75,000 - for a bloody 4 cylinder!)
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st184 sillycar
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 21 January 2005 04:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
MAN I know how to kill a thread! Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy


Go Me ! ! ! ! !
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bubbles
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 21 January 2005 08:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
st184 sillycar wrote on Wed, 19 January 2005 11:22

It's all well and good to say "toyota should build xxxx RWD car, they'd sell enough etc. etc." - But do you know how much it costs to design and engineer a new car? do you know how many years ahead car makers have to plan ahead for a new model? Do you know how much profit cars actually make nowadays?



For a new body on a mix of existing drivetrain and suspension components, you're talking minimum aus$700 million (don't even bother with new engine + new body + new drivetrain). That's if you only want 1 major body style, b.t.w. - start adding around $100 million per hatchback/2door/3door/4door/5door sister model. To manufacture a decent car on the cheap, costs around $15,000, plus around $5,000 to $8,000 in labour, transport, storage, quality control etc. etc. - now do the maths on how many you've got to sell to make the development costs back if you price them "affordably", i.e. $25,000 or $30,000


Even if they had a market today for a cheap, quick RWD car, they've got a lead time of conception to release of 5-8 years. What if the market's changed when the car's released?


-D'ya geddit?

(This is why the S2000 is like, $75,000 - for a bloody 4 cylinder!)



Thats why renault bought nissan
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kenevill
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 21 January 2005 11:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
how many people here go drifting in stock sprinters? i can almost assure you no one does... why? cos theyre shit. you have to basically redo everything ie. handling mods and engine before you get anywhere. new car owners are after cheap and reliable cars whereas people like us are after 2nd hand cars to mod. all toyota need to do (ok minus complications) is build a light rwd corolla (much like the sprinter was) with a basic engine etc and sell it for cheap. that way it is basically a rwd option for corolla buyers, then when those cars move to the second hand market people like us who can now afford them can mod them and turn them into drift machines etc etc blah blah. to get the respect of the new hachi involves merely putting a sprinter badge on it.... magazine sees new sprinter concept and investigates etc etc.... putting a modded version of the car in d1 (no one drives stocko's) which would have all new trd components and would end up being much like what we would have in 4 years time. you wouldnt even need to bother putting a fancy 6 speed or expensive celica motor in cos that all adds up cost. toyota just need to do what they did in the first place and like the original sprinter they should sell like hot cakes

[Updated on: Sat, 22 January 2005 03:35]

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Shraka
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 21 January 2005 12:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
If Toyota brang out something that looked like the AE111 in FWD for Australia that would be great. Make it compete with the Lancers.
All wheel disks, 1.8ltr VVTL-i engine for the sports model. Would be great. Lay the car out with space for some RWD components, then just bring out a RWD option, with the same body. Keep the interior identical to keep prices down, perhaps with a slightly different guage cluster.

One of the things that would make it better for after market (for Toyota) would be to have a whole host of bolt in options.

Toyota could sell off the shelf drop in engine, loom, and ECU upgrades. They could sell the all the parts to convert it from FWD to RWD. Drivetrain, Gearbox, LSD, Engine mounts.

With some foward thinking, they could make it easy. Even put the engine in north south, and just have the gearbox run the drivetrain to the front wheels rather than rear. Make an easy AWD option too.

I dunno, perhaps I'm nuts. I am tired.
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Kr0n1k
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 08 February 2005 01:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
A) Toyota knows we don't have the money to buy one even IF they made it.

B) (USA) There is now way we could afford the insurance premiums (16-25).

C) If they made it, everyone would be on here bitching about the design or engine or what not, same thing is happening to Nissan after the unveiling of what could be a 2007 240SX/200SX/Silvia.

D) They also see that their older cars have a somewhat decent aftermarket support (although should be as good as Hondas, if not a bit better), and most of us are quite happy with our hopped up econ/luxo boxes of yester year, so why would we even be IN THE MARKET for a new car, after spending a hefty amount of cash fixing up what we have?

E) They are an empire. They can do what they want. If all other explanations fail, just remember this, the execs could probably wipe their ass with the money one person spends on a brand new Corolla, and it wouldn't be missed. So unless you get a petition with I'd say... oh... 250,000 people in each large market (US,AUS,JAP,EUR) saying "here's our check *don't feel like trying to convert currencies, though I'd have to think about 20K USD* we want this car, they might THINK about doing it... but they'd probably just take your money and laugh.
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no_tofu_speed
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Jab what?!!?!
Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 08 February 2005 04:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I know toymods has masses of creative talent with a pen/paper/scanner or a photoshop/illustator etc.
The argument will exist of cost and profit, plus demands, and what it should be mechanically.
But lets see some kool bod designs, so far I luv the one base don the ALtezza floating around the net...
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b1gb3n
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 08 February 2005 05:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Shraka wrote on Fri, 21 January 2005 23:55

If Toyota brang out something that looked like the AE111 in FWD for Australia that would be great. Make it compete with the Lancers.
All wheel disks, 1.8ltr VVTL-i engine for the sports model. Would be great. Lay the car out with space for some RWD components, then just bring out a RWD option, with the same body. Keep the interior identical to keep prices down, perhaps with a slightly different guage cluster.

One of the things that would make it better for after market (for Toyota) would be to have a whole host of bolt in options.

Toyota could sell off the shelf drop in engine, loom, and ECU upgrades. They could sell the all the parts to convert it from FWD to RWD. Drivetrain, Gearbox, LSD, Engine mounts.

With some foward thinking, they could make it easy. Even put the engine in north south, and just have the gearbox run the drivetrain to the front wheels rather than rear. Make an easy AWD option too.

I dunno, perhaps I'm nuts. I am tired.


i cant recall a single car with same body that can go both FWD and RWD Rolling Eyes
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Clown
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 08 February 2005 07:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr-s' sales were avg. due to the pissy output. Oh and there were full manual models in japan.
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4agte
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 08 February 2005 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i think anyone that can come up with a lightweight rwd car with a engine that is reasonably powerful from the factory but reacts well to moficiation a decent suspension setup that is reasonably priced 40k ish even less maybee and in a coupe shape would take over where the 200sx aka silvia left off and wouldnt it be nice if it was a toyota.
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86DRFT
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 09 February 2005 07:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
option 1:
sell your house/win the lottery/rob a bank
buy a lotus exige.- celica engine, rwd, 13 sec 1/4, lightweight.

option 2:
keep the ae86, renew everything.

option 3:
forget toyota, buy an s15.

Laughing Cool

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chrisss
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 09 February 2005 10:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter?

A.) because you wouldnt buy it....your dreamin of gourmet while driving leftovers.....
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nash_tz
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 09 February 2005 10:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
"OMG Y WONT FERRARI MAKE A BRAND NEW V12 TWIN TURBO FOR LESS THAN $10,000 BRAND NEW??#$!?@#$ OMGOGMGOG WOULDNT IT BE SICK$#?@" Jesus, some people are living in la la land.
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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ok, do you think that toyota wouldnt of thought of this. there are thousands of people working over in japan descusing, designing and building these cars right now. they obviously have a good reason not to build this type of car again. even in the drift kings 'drift bible' he says 'Ohh, i wish they would still make cars like this AE86' if he had said it they have took it to mind, descust it and budgeted it and found out it wouldnt be worth it. as much as i wish they would bring out a new one i doubt they would. Sad
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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ok, do you think that toyota wouldnt of thought of this. there are thousands of people working over in japan descusing, designing and building these cars right now. they obviously have a good reason not to build this type of car again. even in the drift kings 'drift bible' he says 'Ohh, i wish they would still make cars like this AE86' if he had said it they have took it to mind, descust it and budgeted it and found out it wouldnt be worth it. as much as i wish they would bring out a new one i doubt they would. Sad
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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ok, do you think that toyota wouldnt of thought of this. there are thousands of people working over in japan descusing, designing and building these cars right now. they obviously have a good reason not to build this type of car again. even in the drift kings 'drift bible' he says 'Ohh, i wish they would still make cars like this AE86' if he had said it they have took it to mind, descust it and budgeted it and found out it wouldnt be worth it. as much as i wish they would bring out a new one i doubt they would. Sad
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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Ok, do you think that toyota wouldnt of thought of this. there are thousands of people working over in japan descusing, designing and building these cars right now. they obviously have a good reason not to build this type of car again. even in the drift kings 'drift bible' he says 'Ohh, i wish they would still make cars like this AE86' if he had said it they have took it to mind, descust it and budgeted it and found out it wouldnt be worth it. as much as i wish they would bring out a new one i doubt they would. Sad
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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
holy shit, i thought my browser froze because it wasnt loading :/!!!! im sorry

[Updated on: Fri, 11 February 2005 11:28]

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rotor_life
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Fri, 11 February 2005 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shit im sorry guys, i thought my the page wasnt loading so i gave the submit button a bit of a bash :/

[Updated on: Fri, 11 February 2005 11:31]

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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 16 February 2005 02:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Actaually Mg has a car that is both front and rear wheel drive. The Zt160's are frontwheel drive 2.5 litre sixes and the zt260 is a rear wheel drive 4.6L mustang V8.
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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 16 February 2005 02:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
And considering the 200sx only cost 40 thousand with a tubo I reckon a rwd coupe with an na engine would be around 20. Think BMW 1 series start at 40 k and they are rwd, strip all luxo shit out and the name and a rwd coupe or hatch can be made quite efficiently.
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Bugman
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 16 February 2005 04:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
heh imagine 20grand for a new sprinter.. the build quality would be that of a hyundai excel.

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Rona_Drifter
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 21 June 2005 05:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
So what? What would be great is if all of the car companies Made RWD their standard layout. Just imagine it Rolling Eyes The potential for different and unique cars on the the drift track.(A rwd echo hangin the ass out... *sick!!*) I would love to see another sprinter... but knowing toyota and the way everyone is sooo obsessed about "safety" it'll either be front or all wheel drive. The closest thing u can get to a decent car now days is the Mazda RX8. its got it all.
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Camry_omega
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 21 June 2005 06:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Want a cheap RWD sports coupe?
Get a 2007 Hyundai Tiburon.
http://www.hyundai-forums.com/t3986-news-of-the-ne xt-2007-tiburontuscanicoupe.htm
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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 21 June 2005 06:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
how about no Laughing
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Merudo
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 21 June 2005 06:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Bugman wrote on Wed, 16 February 2005 15:00

heh imagine 20grand for a new sprinter.. the build quality would be that of a hyundai excel.






What's your point?


1997+ excel twincams build quality were fairly decent... in my experience anyway


Interior was pretty sparse, the materials used could be better, but build quality was top notch

[Updated on: Tue, 21 June 2005 06:25]

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ae86drift
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Tue, 21 June 2005 08:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i knew some retard had to be responsible for the grave digging
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tom210
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 22 June 2005 08:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
THE WITZL wrote on Tue, 18 January 2005 11:00

how about you guys truly be honest to yourselves and think for a moment.

With all the design concepts and criteria you have, do you REALY think this "all-new-bakka-hatchi-roku" will cost the consumer less than $50k??? No freaking way!!

Tell me ANYONE here who can afford a $30k car, let alone a $50k car. Now who thinks they can afford one in 10 years? 15 years?

If you dont understand my line of thinking, that means you have no grasp on the concept of proper business planning and management... AND YOU ARE GAY.


HAHAHAHA the gay part thats funny Laughing
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tom210
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 22 June 2005 08:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Camry_omega wrote on Tue, 21 June 2005 16:07

Want a cheap RWD sports coupe?
Get a 2007 Hyundai Tiburon.
http://www.hyundai-forums.com/t3986-news-of-the-ne xt-2007-tiburontuscanicoupe.htm


But thats ages away

[Updated on: Wed, 22 June 2005 08:35]

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on_b00st
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 22 June 2005 09:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KOFFEE-BLACK wrote on Sun, 16 January 2005 10:16

nash_tz wrote on Sun, 16 January 2005 01:33

They did make one. Its called the Altezza. /end thread



hahaha, I agree!

Heres something interesting, probably wont be cheap, but its got some balls.

http://www.detnews.com/pix/autos/concepts/05lexuslfaconcept/3.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/00.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/co/01.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/co/02.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/co/03.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/co/04.jpg
http://www.auto-web.co.jp/NEW_CAR/DETROIT2005/JAPAN/LexusLF-A/co/05.jpg

Vehicle: Lexus LF-A concept
Engine: High-output double overhead cam V-8
Horsepower: More than 500 hp
Height: 48.0 inches
Width: 73.2 inches
Length: 173.2 inches

Suppose to do over 200mph!

Read more here:
http://www.autoweek.com/files/speci...lfa/pages/1. htm
http://www.detnews.com/2005/autosin...0/A07-55271. htm


Can it fly to....It may as well Razz
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st184 sillycar
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Wed, 22 June 2005 23:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2005 13:52

Actaually Mg has a car that is both front and rear wheel drive. The Zt160's are frontwheel drive 2.5 litre sixes and the zt260 is a rear wheel drive 4.6L mustang V8.


Yeah - and MG is BANKRUPT and in receiver's hands now !!!


Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2005 13:52


And considering the 200sx only cost 40 thousand with a tubo I reckon a rwd coupe with an na engine would be around 20. Think BMW 1 series start at 40 k and they are rwd, strip all luxo shit out and the name and a rwd coupe or hatch can be made quite efficiently.


Damn! a $20k turbocharger? must be one KICK-ASS turbine!
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hickoz_bro
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Thu, 23 June 2005 00:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
in reply to NASH_TC's dream... Nissan did just this with the 260Z... they bought a whole bunch of originals, restored them all, modified them a bit, and then re-sold them as new! gorgeous looking cars i say Smile

would be awesome to see a 2006 model RA28 too!




one of the main reasons there are so small RWD is space... installing the diff in the back takes up a huge amount of passenger space... as does the tranny tunnel etc... most people want a family car.. so if you want a cheap sports car, you take parts from the cheapest in the line, assembly techniques you already have, use the same jigs, etc etc etc... and make a car, the only way to keep the costs down... it's all about the money these days, the fastest way for the company to make money is the way they'll go... reguardless of how large the market is... if they can only handle so much production, they'll use their abilities to make most profit...
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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Thu, 23 June 2005 00:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
st184 sillycar wrote on Thu, 23 June 2005 09:55

Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2005 13:52

Actaually Mg has a car that is both front and rear wheel drive. The Zt160's are frontwheel drive 2.5 litre sixes and the zt260 is a rear wheel drive 4.6L mustang V8.


Yeah - and MG is BANKRUPT and in receiver's hands now !!!


Corona RT142 wrote on Wed, 16 February 2005 13:52


And considering the 200sx only cost 40 thousand with a tubo I reckon a rwd coupe with an na engine would be around 20. Think BMW 1 series start at 40 k and they are rwd, strip all luxo shit out and the name and a rwd coupe or hatch can be made quite efficiently.


Damn! a $20k turbocharger? must be one KICK-ASS turbine!


Read the date dong, written in february well before MG went bankrupt, two i am not saying the turbo is worth 20K but the extra package that comes with it, better brakes, suspension etc etc to make the package. I am talking here a bare bones rwd sedan or coupe whatever it may be and look at an xr6 turbo thats 10K more than an xr6.
Sure a turbo may not be worth 20K but its ther engineering and development of the engine to run it to that has to be recouped. How much do you think ford spent on developing the turbo motor my guess is somewhere in the millions hence they need to recoup costs with an increased price.
Its not like an aftermarket kit where you just pay some guy to bolt one up and hope for the best that it lasts 20000km or so.
A factory kit would be tested doing up to 1million kms on mules in extreme conditions etc etc the costs ad up a lot.
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Camry_omega
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Thu, 23 June 2005 04:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I think ford still wouldn't have re-couped the development costs of the XR6 turbo, but the positive publicity it got would have affected sales across the entire range.
I think it is possible for Toyota to build a Corolla with basic equpiment simliar to current standards for say 25,000. But the market would be too small, people wouldn't be able to justify paying more just caus its RWD.
If they made a sports car in a similar vein to the Corolla Sportivo or Renault Cilo Sport, i think you'd find the price would be headed towards 40k.
Bottom line: Your not going to see Toyota do this any time soon, so get an MX5 or something used.
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Corona RT142
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Thu, 23 June 2005 04:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yeah but soft tops will never have the same structural rigidity of a hard top car and hence aren't good for outright racing, sure there are examples aka porsche etc but even the mx5 well earlier examples aren't that great. Plus i'm not really the convertible type, they are too small for me
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domasik
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Re: Why wont Toyota create a new gen Rwd-Vvti-sprinter? Thu, 23 June 2005 08:10 Go to previous messageGo to previous message
2 things

one

Altezza RS200

two

PRB Clubman Kit Car

either one is exactly what your talking about

stop whinging!
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