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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 06:19
 
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Might I add that belts are used for whipping girls during kinky sex and not for any statistical level!
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 06:28
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tuffest thread evah!!! 
mixing topics with another thread... can anyone reccommend a martial art for my cat? she needs to learn to control her agression. she already has excellent speed, though!  ... ever since i saw those ninjas in that movie "dogs and cats"... 
seriously guys, don't posture over this shit. it's sad.
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Location:
Ballarat
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 10:55
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"A high level black belt in a martial art that relies heavily on kicking could probably hit you with 5 kicks before you even thought about landing 1 punch. "
This statement, not giving you shit, but it is absolutely not true. A high level black belt, against a high level boxer probably will not dominate a fight as suggested. Every style has its strength, a kicker will generally have a high stance, as balance is needed in the hips whereas a strong puncher, will generally have a low stance, there balance will be lowered for power(both will be on their toes, but balance will be different). Now, im a kicker, so i have no reason to be biased, however, humans have a natural reflex to defend the head and most people will generally react by wacking a hand in the way of a kick, wont stop a good kick, but itll slow it, a bit. Obviously to defend against head kicks, and be proficient, much training is needed. So the kicker, to get a kick to the head, will compromise balance, and his/her foot cannot be further from their centre of gravity, which is when people are most vulnerable.
Now a good boxer concentrates on speed, intricate footwork, powerful punching, and really powerful counterpunching. They will be well balanced and know when to be aggresive.
Despite what happens in the movies, clean knockouts are VERY hard to achieve, no matter how good ones hip flexibility is. Punching to the head is effective for knockouts, as most of the bodies vital points are down the centerline: the point of the jaw, above the teeth, the bridge of the nose etc. Also the main two knuckles provides greater focus than the shin.
What im saying is after all that shit: A high kick, 1 or 5 of them is a great compromise of balance. Up against a good boxer, counter aggresive boxer, it could be all over if the first kick doesnt achieve a knockout.
Btw, its good to see Tae Kwon Do finally getting some respect. i personally would never do it coz it doesnt suit my needs, but martial arts has developed greatly from it, in terms of balance, and also, the axe kick is largely an adaption from TKD exponents.
Word out.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 11:23
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I did TKD for a while, and what killed it for me was seeing five year old kids get black belts just because they knew the patterns and had done the requisite number of gradings. It was at that point that I realized two things. One; that if someone wanted to beat the crap out of these black belt kids, they could do it, no problems. Two; that if I stuck with this method long enough to get a black belt, I'd be as good at fighting as these kids (although maybe a bit taller, I was 12 at the time  ).
Now I'm looking into Muay Thai and/or ninjitsu - anyone recommend any schools for either in Perth?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 11:24
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Where exactly are you in Perth?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 11:34
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Personally I don't like most high kicking styles. The kicks, no matter how fast, are still slow compared to punches. While the kicks are usually fairly powerful, just watching a high kicking art makes me wanna just rush them and drop my shoulder into them mid kick.
I like throwing and grappling styles. From all the fights I've seen, EVERY ONE gets into a grapple position. It's human nature. Obviously very high level martial artists will be able to avoid grapples, but why go against nature if you just plan on defending yourself from mid level aggressors?
Styles that focus on punching and grappling form kinda annoy me. My style was like this. I never learned proper balance as it wasn't taught. I was just expected to know instinctual. Sure I know how to punch and grapple, but if someone blows passed one of my punches and just spear tackles me I'm fucked. Having said that their where a few classes where I really felt like "That attack is strong" but most of the time it was about charging them and getting in close first. Putting them off center of balance and them hitting them with close strikes or grapples. Yet we spend 15 mins of every 45 min class doing punches and kicks. 
It depends what you want really. I would say high kicking styles are a bit silly for self defense. I mean, a high level Tae Kwon Do artist will blitz a mid to low level of most anything else. But put a high level Tae Kwon Do fighter against a good punching and grappling fighter who has spend the same amount of time and determination on their art, and the TKD guy should be slaughtered in a fight. I'm also talking about real world fights, not sparing, as they are totally different.
But that depends. TKD is very impressive looking, and great for flexibility and fitness. And while useful, not as efficient a fighting style as many others.
I enjoy soft styles, but MAN they take FOREVER to learn! But oh yeah... good and... just... strong!
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Location:
Liverpool, Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 11:47
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Sorry to hijack a bit - but whats the advantages of extrenal vs internal arts?
If that makes sense..... something was said a bit before in this thread... but i didnt really understand....?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 12:11
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 19:24 |
Where exactly are you in Perth?
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South Perth. I'm right near the freeway though, so pretty much anywhere is 15 minutes away. 
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 12:39
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| MFX_Neko_86 wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 22:47 |
Sorry to hijack a bit - but whats the advantages of extrenal vs internal arts?
If that makes sense..... something was said a bit before in this thread... but i didnt really understand....?
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It's hard to explain, and even harder to understand if you haven't done lots of martial arts.
External arts are ones such as TKD, Karate, Muay Thai, Wing Chun, JKD, actually, any Jap or Korean art. They talk about things such as speed and strength and power. To block an attack, you apply a greater force or redirect it.
External arts are quick to master but limited in scope.
The most obvious Internal art is Tai Chi, they talk about things such as Chi, softness and meridians. Obviously focusing on your own body rather than your opponent's. Internal arts block by absorbing the energy of the attack and once that contact has been made, controlling the opponent from there, never letting that contact go.
Internal arts take about 15 years to get to a "novice" stage. They don't look spectacular (everything that happens cannot be seen) but are extremely effective.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Mon, 22 November 2004 14:37
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If you're looking for Muay Thai.. Phons in northbridge is quite good. I used to train outta there and the people there seem good. No "HERO" head cases there.
They have got a few fighters that have gone fight in the Prince cup (thailand) and a few more gearing up for K1.
One of a the better fighting gyms (imho) in Perth
| fractoid wrote on Mon, 22 November 2004 19:23 |
Now I'm looking into Muay Thai and/or ninjitsu - anyone recommend any schools for either in Perth?
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 00:27
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I think the only way to settle this is to have a great massif unorganised toymods full contact martial arts tournament...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 02:28
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Yeah my Sensai did internal martial arts. He taught Ryu Kyu Kempo (the art I learned). It was annoying 'cuz I wanted to learn the internal stuff, but the external component was too unorganized and in some cases not particularly practical, and he didn't seem to even teach his highest level black belt instructors much of it. Anyway you could hit this guy as hard as you liked and land punches that literally lifted him off the ground, and he was fine. He would just stand there and ask you to hit him harder. I never got to do it but one of my friends who was going for their black belt did and woh. Crazy stuff. He called it his Iron Shirt Technique!! LOL.
One of our instructors used to get knocked out a lot too, to our Sensai's pressurepoint strikes. Was impressive and sometimes funny.
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Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 02:35
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Im for the toymods full contact
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Lwr Templestowe, Melbourne
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 02:39
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I don't do martial arts, well I used to when I was little but not enough to say I actually did. But just interesting as my mate sent me an AVI file with a blackbelt TKD dude against a shaolin monk. Needless to say the TKD guy was doing spin kicks and such showing off his skills, but when you actually see the shaolin monk make a move, you literally drop your jaw. That dude is so fast it had to be replayed in slow motion to actually see him throw his kicks and counter punches and stuff all at the same fluid motion. RESPECT.
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Location:
Ballarat
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 02:39
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yerr ill enter it
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 02:44
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I've studied martial arts for almost 9 years. Since I first took up karate in 1995, I've learned that karate is more for discipline and fitness rather than learning how to punch-on with someone. One of the first things you learn about karate is that it's for defence only... interpret this how you want. Most people I know say "ok someone throws a punch at me and I finish them off", whereas basically it's to be used as a defence mechanism for yourself (self-defence  ).
In that time I've studied three martial arts (all karate styles), the first was a hybrid style with a very dodgy ethic, learned there for 3½ years and felt proficient at it. The second style I was only at for 9 months before I moved away... would have loved to continue that style though (Go-Ju based). My third style was Shotokan-based karate and I used my knowledge of my first style to grade quicker (or prior learning), as much of the same techniques were used in this style. I got my black belt in 2001 and started an instructor's course soon after. We also got to learn weapons in this style as an extension of the self-defence ethic of this club.
I took up martial arts purely for self-defence and fitness. I'm not a fit bloke by any stretch, and I'm certainly not as flexible as they come either. But I use what I can to my ability when sparring and such, and a lot of people I've sparred find it very hard to get around someone who's 6'4" with a 91" reach. My weaknesses are I'm not a very good evader or side-to-side mover, ie. escaping from a situation, and my movements are predictable so a lot of people can see them coming before I've landed them.  I loved doing kata to practice a sequence of moves in a formalised pattern, one of my favourites was Kanku-Dai. Very involved and hard to remember, but I still know about 16 of these kata I used to practice. I kept fairly fit while I was doing martial arts, but now I've let it go a bit and my gut tells the story. But strangely my balance has improved.
I don't do martial arts for the contact... if someone is stupid enough to hit me they deserve to get smashed in return. Did someone say self-defence?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 04:07
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Oh man this is going to take a long time to reply to...I wish I'd noticed this thread earlier!
This whole 'street effective' and 'real fights' thing annoys the shit out of me. What exactly do most people call 'street fights' anyway? It's just a case of two or more people going retarded and getting physical. Sure they can be dangerous blah blah, but why would you waste your time with a street fight? It means almost nothing at all - there is nothing on the line but foolish pride and arrogance. It's just some little aggressive episode that should probably be sorted out by a guidance counsellor or something.
If you want to know a REALLY REALLY amazingly effective street tactic, then take up sprinting/jogging/running, I guarantee it will get you out of 99% of situations without a scratch. If you are the kind of person who gets into multiple people on multiple people fights (gang fights), then forget martial arts - chances are it will all be decided by who has the most blunt objects, who is willing to do the lowest blows or who has the most knives and/or guns. You're best bet is to go to a doctor, ask about seeking professional help and straightening out your life.
Martial arts is about LIFE - not about fighting. It's about discpline, respect, honesty, integrity and how to lead a 'better' (loose use of the term) life using those skills/characteristics.
(this bit has been re-phrased to be less stoopid)
If you are starting out and you just wanna get fit and have some fun, just scope out a few places and just watch some of their training sessions - in regards to fitness and health you are probably better off steering clear of the martial arts *schools* (not styles) that promise to make you 'hardcore' etc. These are just quick and nasty and I don't think they are a great long term prospect if you want to integrate martial arts into your life. When you think about it, if you plan on sticking with martial arts for a long period of time you have to consider whether it is actually going to ADD to your life in the long run - ie is your body going to hold up forever! Every martial art is high impact exercise - some moreso than others, even more family oriented Tae Kwon Do training can strain your body more than you might think.(/rephrasing)
As an aside - I do alot of my own reading into physiology so I can better understand the human body's reaction to martial arts and how to better use my body in the process of martial arts. I base my recommendation of steering clear of the "lets beat the shit out of someone" schools of martial arts upon this research.
[Updated on: Tue, 23 November 2004 13:34]
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Location:
South Australia
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July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 04:15
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Oh yeah, I've been studying TKD for about 4 years and am at red belt level (yeah I'm slack I haven't attended all the gradings) I've competed in the last 3 south australian state taekwondo championships and although I've sparred well I've never quite netted the top place. Next year I will probably have to step up another level to start competing with the likes of Shane Whiteway (a member of the shadow olympic squad for athens). Sure sparring in TKD isn't ultra hardcore but the level of fitness and how committed you have to be to go well is indicative of the kind of character that martial arts can build.
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Location:
South Australia
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July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 04:26
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Also I'm not really having a go at those who do the rougher styles of martial arts, it depends alot on the student and the instructor and how it's viewed, what you want to get out of it etc. It's a very subjective matter. I'm probably only sort of having a poke at the people who talk up a martial art because of it's street application or how 'other', 'soft' martial arts are crap because they aren't about messing people up with fists and elbows...it just bothers me on an idealogical level, that's all
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 04:49
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FWDboy, who are you doing TKD with? I did TKD with bai rui international for about 4 years but i'm seriously considering taking it up again. In my prime back in 2000 i got 3rd for mens middleweight at the state champs although the next year i promptly had my butt kicked 
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Location:
Ballarat
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 04:55
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i think an objective opinion is needed, as all people are different, styles of karate are different, therefore different people will like different styles. so i agree with most of your thread, cept this:"I guarantee you someone who has studied TKD for 20 years will be able to kick the crap out of someone who has studied kick boxing or muay thai for 20 years."
hmm all throughout this thread there has been posts like this, and you see, there is no point claiming one style is better or stronger than the other. you suggest that the thai boxers body will be wrecked from years of 'hard' training, may be true, but some peoples bodies may prosper with this training, i know myself that i train better and respond better to 'hard' training. tkd has its strengths, as does a thai boxer, as you said, there is too much emphasis placed on street fighting and ego battles, dont fuel the battle with egotistical statements.
but on the whole, i dig what u wrote
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 10:21
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Saying martial arts is for self defence or for health is total crap in my opinion.
I've heard the self defence line so many times. It's not for self defence, if you want to learn self defence, take up sprinting.
Health is a grey area, it's more a good side effect than anything. Sure some people will do martial arts just to get healthy, but to dismiss it as nothing but being good for the health is stupid.
At the end of the day, you're learning how to fight. If it can't be used in a real street fight, then it better be good for the health!
I'm not saying that learning martial arts teaches you to go and start fights or bully people. It's there so that you can take care of yourself if shit hits the fan, or to be able to stand up for yourself rather than be picked on.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 11:02
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| Quote: |
Saying martial arts is for self defence or for health is total crap in my opinion.
I've heard the self defence line so many times. It's not for self defence, if you want to learn self defence, take up sprinting.
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haha. agreed. or buy a pistol! if you want to fight in the ring muay thai is the go.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 13:38
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Okay I rephrased that post a bit to make more sense, I only just realised how dodgy it sounded when I read it then. Hope it clears up what I meant to say, but was too lazy to figure out how to say at the time.
Oh I do my taekwondo training with Cheng's Tae Kwon Do (oh do kwan). It's a very small club that is probably more family oriented than anything else these days! Most of my 'real' training these days is my own...I should train more often with the state team and try to go around and spar with some of the other clubs but I haven't had the time and sometimes the other clubs instructors can be a bit unhelpful.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Tue, 23 November 2004 15:38
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.....Nomatter how good you are at anything, no body is invincible.. One can only merely attempt to give themselves the best advantage possible to result in an outcome with the least amount of injury.
Street fights, means anything goes..... including numbers and weapons.
It does happen, a dude came in and had a full on swipe at a friend of mine with a machete, the only thing that saved his leg from possible permanent damage wa sthe fact he had a titanium phone in his pocket and it took most of the shock.
This occurred in a town which is not Sydney or Melbourne, which have reputations for such things.
And nowadays many fights occur with a number of people, u serious wanna use grappling when u are trying to be aware if this dude has any friends in the crowd etc?
I have never dealth personally with grappling (all I know is I do not want to be an definately not spend extended time on the ground in a fight for that such reason), so the next statements are totally questions...
Grappling, involves overcoming your adversary, with locks etc etc.
So how does thi win fights with someone who wants to hurt you bad, you lay on the ground with them and dominate them til they submit, but as soon as you let go he will have another go at you etc etc... so we just lay on the ground with him or what?
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I supported Toymods
On probation
Location:
Brisbane, Queensland
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 24 November 2004 00:35
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| no_tofu_speed wrote on Wed, 24 November 2004 02:08 |
.....Nomatter how good you are at anything, no body is invincible.. One can only merely attempt to give themselves the best advantage possible to result in an outcome with the least amount of injury.
Street fights, means anything goes..... including numbers and weapons.
It does happen, a dude came in and had a full on swipe at a friend of mine with a machete, the only thing that saved his leg from possible permanent damage wa sthe fact he had a titanium phone in his pocket and it took most of the shock.
This occurred in a town which is not Sydney or Melbourne, which have reputations for such things.
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What the frog is that all about? Some some guy just decided to take a machete to the 'friend of yours' leg? You friend has just fallen into the the very tiny percentage of assaults that occur without motivation, or there is more to the story...secondly since when are machete attacks associated with cities like Sydney or Melbourne? That's news to me! (Then again I am from Adelaide)
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And nowadays many fights occur with a number of people, u serious wanna use grappling when u are trying to be aware if this dude has any friends in the crowd etc?
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Are you talking about personal experience, or just postulating? If you find yourself repeatedly in fights with many people, then get new friends, find a new spot to hang out, or check yourself into drug rehab. If you are just postulating, then I think you'd be surprised how most of the many people on many people fights are just about stupid stuff like envy and 'de women'. When people fight and get all pissy about that kind of thing it doesn't reflect well on them, nor does it reflect well on how they choose the express their feelings for 'de women'.
| Quote: |
I have never dealth personally with grappling (all I know is I do not want to be an definately not spend extended time on the ground in a fight for that such reason), so the next statements are totally questions...
Grappling, involves overcoming your adversary, with locks etc etc.
So how does thi win fights with someone who wants to hurt you bad, you lay on the ground with them and dominate them til they submit, but as soon as you let go he will have another go at you etc etc... so we just lay on the ground with him or what?
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Bad, bad stereotyping. For starters winning a fight does not mean killing the other person, or causing the other person to me more bloodied than you are, or incapaciting the other person. Secondly, fights are very RARELY won, usually one fight is just a prelude to another fight a week later once they participants' bodies have healed (however their brains have not). FYI - grappling and trapping can be very useful, but like everything it isn't a universal technique. Go and do some grappling and form your own opinion of it and just see how the training goes - that's really all I can say about it.
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 24 November 2004 00:39
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Yeah what boris said
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Location:
Ballarat
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 24 November 2004 03:27
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mushin
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 24 November 2004 18:20
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Ah ok, thnx, well the grappling I have seen was just submissions and stuff.
And well my friend, was one on one fight and the dude came back with the machete. But the fact that he had it in his car and willing to get it after being in a "fairish" right... well like bleh!
It was just stated, to show how crazy shit sometimes is nowadays and that fight situations are unpredicatble.
Association with Melbourne and Sydney was just I hear of lots of happenings with weapons in fights, of quarrels getting to the extreme.
And me, talking about people in fights, and multiple participants, just talking on what I have seen, me have not been in a fight besides once.
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 13:21
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no tofu speed if you think grappling is only done on the ground i'm afraid that's a bit incorrect.
and if you think grappling is bad in a group situation, well, it can be! and it can also work well. there's not one thing that's gonna work for every situation.
However going back to grappling for submissions - that would be for sport like MMA. Remember small joint manipulations arn't allowed in these contests or else they'd be really nasty.
Boxer punches, luckily puts his arm into an armlock, and while driving his head into the ground and attemping (emphasis on attempting, as I'm sure snapping an elbow would be hard) to break his arm. Mean time he's also snapping the guys fingers, as many as he can before the guy hits the ground, because as soon as the guy hits the floor, he's going to start stomping on his head.
This kind of fighting would be how these guys would use grappling I imagine to defend themselves. They wouldn't wanna get locked up and tied up - especially on the ground, where other people could kick them into a purple mess.
But if you want to talk about being attacked by a machetie, think about the founder of the Yagyu Shinkage ryu, that guy had a way of dealing with an armed attacker (wielding a katana) while unarmed! This was demonstrated to Tokugawa Hidetada (spelling?)
Note: Hidetada had TWO attemps at him, with a wooden sword (at full speed etc).
Grant.
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Location:
Canberra
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 14:27
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I agree that walking, jogging or running away from a fight is a good idea but when your job is to break up fights at a club this isn't really an option.
When breaking up a fight in a club grappling is your friend as it means you can grab one of them and take him or her outside without having to deal with him trying to hit you.
After you get him outside and listen to his "Do you know who I am" crap then you can walk back inside or if needed "defend" yourself.
I say "defend" not "Mauy Thai smash his face in" because then you will only end up in court loosing lots of $$$ but also possibly on the news as the latest security guard to use excessive force.
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Location:
South Australia
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July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 15:53
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Actually I'm just about to grab my security guards license....about 1% of the whole security course was about self defence, the rest of it was mainly asbout law, a bit of conflict management/communication skills...and also a bit of crowd psychology.
To be honest, I can't see myself needing to use more than a coupla wrist locks every now and then when a patron is being really difficult, obviously I won't be able to reason with every one of them. But in regards to getting into a 'fight' (I usually assume a fight is pretty serious - ie you must either fight or die) with a patron, i'd rather not! Best to call in the police and let them deal with it as they are much less likely to get sued
Of course, then there's the duty of care you owe to the other patrons to stop a mongrel from assaulting everyone in sight. Then I'd probably just, get some back up, get the guy moved out of there and then talk with the guy or call police.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 16:34
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Well as security you have the advantage of numbers, as do police, you don't really need to be that "good" if you're bigger and intimidating. What you gotta watch out for is the little guy who knows the only way he can "get" you, is by smashing you over the back of the head with a bottle and running.
Off topic a bit though, I wonder what would happen, if say, some security guard or bouncer whose been shown how to do a wrist lock or two, grabbed the wrist of a person who's been doing jujutsu/taijutsu based martial art for a good number of years and has a good foundation in the basics..
*ponders on acting drunk and disorderly for future training purposes*
hmm! ^_^
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Location:
Canberra
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 17:02
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The cops are quite often 10+ mins away, and you don't always have large numbers of security unless its a nightclub.
and yeah wrist locks are the easiest to use and very effective, even on an experienced martial artist, if they struggle just apply more pressure (remember to ease up if they stop struggling).
but the most effective way to remove someone who has been asked to leave is talk them out, they may winge and bitch but 90% will do just that talk it up then walk away complaining.
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 17:10
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"and yeah wrist locks are the easiest to use and very effective, even on an experienced martial artist, if they struggle just apply more pressure (remember to ease up if they stop struggling)."
I disagree with this statement strongly.
Wrist locks arn't the easiest things to use, unless you're talking about muscling them on, and if you're muscling on a wrist lock against an experienced martial artist of any discipline, you'd best expect a few hard hits to the head, or the lock to just not work at all, regardless of how much extra muscular strength you apply.
Especially if they're the sort of wrist locks where you use both hands to hold one of the opponents wrists.
If you grab a boxers wrist, with both hands, your head is wide open and if he dosen't take your head off, he aint a boxer! The same, with someone who can actually apply the wrist locks properly, if you grab their wrist and try to muscle it on they should be able to stop you from doing so just by moving with you, if you have both hands on them they could be slapping you on the face while saying "you're open here mr. sloppy technique".
That said, working security I think would be hard for another reason - the person you're trying to control is the one who decides how far it will esculate. You'd never know if some guy is going to snap because you grab him. I mean you could think this guy is a drunken idiot, and maybe they're just really pissed off, if you're in a foul mood and someone grabs your wrist, or shoulder, well, that can make matters worse.
Then again I'm thinking mainly of seedy nightclub environments in places where there's too much alcohol and testostarone. Funny I don't goto those kinds of places much anymore.
But if you don't think what i've said about wrist locks is true, pop down to your local video store, and hire out some UFC's or K1 and have a look!
Grant.
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Location:
Canberra
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May 2002
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Location:
in the shadows
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 24 June 2005 23:53
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malicia is right.
every situation calls for a different solution. no one lock/restraint will work for every encounter. in a crowded nightclub, you may not have the room to execute an effective wristlock. instead you might find yourself having to clinche and work the choke angle.
what about his mate? or mates? they've lost their drinking buddy and may decide to throw a cheap shot at you from the side/rear. how about a weapon? not a knife that is, i mean a schooner glass. you could get tapped across the face with it whilst trying to control his other hand.
no encounters are ever the same. you have to be aware that even the sedate guy who agrees to leave and walks could turn and swing at you.
wristlocks may work best for you, they might not work for you at all. you will figure it out pretty quickly.
what do they call it? a "baptism by fire"
best of luck with it RWDboy.
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 01:19
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Over half a year lata! haha Thnx for that input though fooz86.
Just a lil not on black belts, something I once heard sounded quite true, obtaining a black belt didnt mena you were a master of the art but it signified that you were dedicated and proficient enough to "start really learning" the art (in a sense).
Internal arts:
And an extract about a person who was a 5th dan judo & 9th dan kenpo master who travelled to china to challenge Hsing I Ching master (internal art).
"No matter how many times I tried with grappling with a stick or even suprise attack, each time the result was the same I was thrown, HE TAPPED ME ONLY LIGHTLY ON THE CHEST JUST ABOVE THE HEART AND I EXPERIENCED A STRANGE AND FRIGHTENING PAIN LIKE A HEART ATTACK. I bowed humbly and asked him to accept me as a student"
| fOOZ86 wrote on Fri, 24 June 2005 23:21 |
no tofu speed if you think grappling is only done on the ground i'm afraid that's a bit incorrect.
and if you think grappling is bad in a group situation, well, it can be! and it can also work well. there's not one thing that's gonna work for every situation.
However going back to grappling for submissions - that would be for sport like MMA. Remember small joint manipulations arn't allowed in these contests or else they'd be really nasty.
Boxer punches, luckily puts his arm into an armlock, and while driving his head into the ground and attemping (emphasis on attempting, as I'm sure snapping an elbow would be hard) to break his arm. Mean time he's also snapping the guys fingers, as many as he can before the guy hits the ground, because as soon as the guy hits the floor, he's going to start stomping on his head.
This kind of fighting would be how these guys would use grappling I imagine to defend themselves. They wouldn't wanna get locked up and tied up - especially on the ground, where other people could kick them into a purple mess.
But if you want to talk about being attacked by a machetie, think about the founder of the Yagyu Shinkage ryu, that guy had a way of dealing with an armed attacker (wielding a katana) while unarmed! This was demonstrated to Tokugawa Hidetada (spelling?)
Note: Hidetada had TWO attemps at him, with a wooden sword (at full speed etc).
Grant.
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Location:
South Australia
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July 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 02:10
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Yeah every situation is going to be different, I'm well prepared for it - although it's still going to be a 'baptism of fire' for sure. I think it's pretty obvious that the more violent you are as a security guard (and the less you rely on using your mouth to solve problems) the harder your job is going to get over the long run as you get more and more patrons who aren't on your side. Of course, the more times you use physical force, the more 'situations' you are going to get involved in etc.
I think one big advantage in doing martial arts is that I don't get aggressive very readily - i get alot of stress worked out at training and that helps alot. The better you deal with your stress, and the less stressed you feel, the less likely you are to revert your behavioural patterns (generally when placed under stress you tend towards using child-like methods of solving conflict).
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 04:49
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Wow no tofu speed, I read that article just a few days ago. Was that from the "kung fu masters" special edition? If you look at the Wushu part, I'm pretty sure the guy being demonstrated on by master lu is the guy I share a training hall with. Top bloke!
but about black belts, in what I train in, a blackbelt means you have the basics down and you can start to learn the more advanced stuff, and in our art, a 5th dan usually comes with a teachers license, and means you can start to throw away the forms (whatever that means I'm not there yet!)
Grant.
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Location:
eastern suburbs, melbourne
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 05:19
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ohh man, i saw this thread when its almost over.. and it seems everyone has a opinion of their own. which is great because this will help you decide what u want to do.
if u want a style to protect you on the street do close quarters combat. or ninjitsu.
i have been doing ninjitsu for 2 years, still not very good, but at least i know how much further i have to go.
ninjitsu is in my opinion the greatest fighting style from japan, but its 5 times harder to become very good at.(im not using the term 'master' as there is only one master of every style and i highly doubt anyone wasting their time on here will b better then them). this is because ninjitsu is usues all of the japanese arts (samurai, karate, aikido, jujitsu, etc).
i belive that if u want to protect yourself on the streets against any weapon apart from a projectile, learn aikido. its pretty much all about self defence and using the attackers motion to throw him or break his bones.
but if u are really serious about it, be prepared for alot of pain. you cant learn any martial art effectivly without pushing your self very hard.
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 06:27
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Hmmmm, no doubt it is in existance today and very complex system
but ninjitsu, steming from ninja....
Historically evidence is very grey... ninja did not really exist in the way we picture them, and they were often just ronin etc.... often very clumsy and caught during missions and killed.
"Samurai" is not actually an art either.
The word "ninja" itself actually doesnt exist it was a mispronounciation/mistake in translation through japanese to mandarin to english.
I have aheavy interest in japanese swords and feudal japan.
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Location:
brisbane
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May 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 08:39
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dont limit your self with 1 martial art, goto multiple class's each week, varying fighting styles, ie ,
monday - BJJ submission fighting
tuesday - muay thai
wed - boxing
so on and so forth, unless you can find a really good mixed martial arts gym, prepare to have your ass handed to you tho, you'll find alot of the no-holds-barred fighters train in these for tournaments like, king of the hill, spartan etc etc.
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 08:49
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If ninja didn't exist, who was Hatori Hanzo?
If the ninja didn't exist as we know them are you saying the general person picturing the kabuki play ninjas who were dressed in black symbolizing how hard they were to see?
If the ninja didn't exist, who were the families and clans from Iga and Koga who had strong ties to the Yagyu family? and apparently helped the Yagyu when the Toyotomi confiscated land believing the Yagyu had fields they were not being taxed on? hmm..
"this is because ninjitsu is usues all of the japanese arts (samurai, karate, aikido, jujitsu, etc)."
I'm sorry but I find this rediculous. That's just not true. I also highly doubt you train in "ninjitsu"
About training in multiple martial arts, that's also a bad way to go IMO, you should get a grounding in one, and then use another to supplement the gaps in your training! or else you're just going to be a tangled mess who dosen't know if you're grappling or punching or doing jumping spinning fly kicks of the kaze.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 10:25
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IMO spinning flying kicks is like a show drift. u do a show drift when ur way ahead in a race. just like in combat, u only do ur fancy spinning flying kick after opponent has taken a few hits or else they will just give u a kick between ur legs..
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 18:38
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| fOOZ86 wrote on Sat, 25 June 2005 18:49 |
If ninja didn't exist, who was Hatori Hanzo?
If the ninja didn't exist as we know them are you saying the general person picturing the kabuki play ninjas who were dressed in black symbolizing how hard they were to see?
If the ninja didn't exist, who were the families and clans from Iga and Koga who had strong ties to the Yagyu family? and apparently helped the Yagyu when the Toyotomi confiscated land believing the Yagyu had fields they were not being taxed on? hmm..
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Hattori Hanzo did exist, but as I stated, the real historical figure and the image are totally different.
And families in the Koga and Iga provinces... I know of, but not much about the truth of them, but logically..... Iga and Koga both were "known".. how can you be "known" and get away with training masters of espionage who were meant to be secret...
And the ninja if they went ona night raid, apparantly more likely wore a very dark navy and grey I read (black is actually easier to see in night, night is not actually really black black), but more commonly and often they would spend years living the life of a poor farmer/villager just to infultrate etc etc...
Like I said, alot of it is very grey..... not saying they totally didnt exist, but historically alot of things dont add up to what we think they were. And its been many many years, I have a bad memory.
Maybe one of the better places to straighten it out is the bugei sword forums, I remmeber there being a japanese historian who was a regular....
But to them such a question about "the true nature of ninja etc" would prolly be like posting on toymods... "how can I drift like Takumi" and get a shitload of smartazz answers
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 18:44
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Ahhhh, alot of things I sayin may be wrong anyways. If I am wrong about particulars; I am wrong I have no problem with that lol.
Just pointing out that their history and origin for what we perceive it is debatable.
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 18:54
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arts known for jumping kicks like traditional taekwondo were highly efficent back in the day for what they were used for... which was often demounting people off horses etc...
Kicks in real fighting.......
A low kick is effecitive as it is hard to see and quick and is quite painfully distracting.
A waist height kick parraelle to the ground is good because it is where you have the greatest reach and power as your leg is joined to your hip which is aorund waist height
A high kick is easy to see, slow as you have to bring you leg from the ground all the way up, and not obtaining great reach, it does gain a fair maount of power from momentum but that is the only plus I can see.
A jumping kick.. alot of your power and effort is used in the action of jumping, less to put into the kick, you are not supported by the ground and all the power is relied on previous momentum from the initial push; this can be easily deflected putting them off balance and centre in the air (not fun I can tell you if you have had it done to you).
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 25 June 2005 19:34
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Well (about the "ninja") I guess it all depends .. I'm guessing the historian you were talking about would be Meik Skoss.. however.. he nore any other historian would say "there were no ninjas" and so on, they DID exist, the only thing questionable about it is wether or not they (the "ninja" families) have an unbroken lineage of their martial arts to today.
The most (and only) credible source for this would be Soke Masaaki Hatsumi of the Bujinkan. Who at this point hasn't tried to have his three ninjutsu schools authenticated (to my tiny amount of knowledge).
Anyway, night missions? perhaps you should do a little research if you're interested, reading can be fun, I think you'll find there is little to no historical proof of ninjas running around and performing assassinations, period. So as to what you mean by night missions, I don't know. There were 70 or so families with their own kinds of ninjutsu of course, with different speclizaed skills.
Nowadays you have satalites with cameras, and wire taps and so on, however these things arn't as good as on the ground, in the know, trusted people (as seen with the war on terror) However during the Tokugawa rule, the Tokugawa were said to have the largest network of spies operating to inform him on just about anything he'd like to know on the Daimyo's and so on. So much so, that, he in one case knew personally more about one Daimyo's garden than the Daimyo himself! much to the shock fo the Daimyo
Grant.
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Location:
in the shadows
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 29 June 2005 05:26
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low kicks can also be used to distract opponents whilst following with hand techniques.
midsections kicks can also be used to buckle an opponent or create distance, depending on whether you hit above/below their centre of gravity.
high section kicks can also be used as a finisher, if cloaked by clever handwork.
spinning kick/jumping kicks will get you killed on the street. never show your opponent your back. best left for dynamic demos. they look unreal when executed correctly though.
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Location:
Pilbara
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Wed, 29 June 2005 07:25
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It's the same everytime someone asks about martial arts. It's either, 'I was at the club and got punched and now I feel like shit, it's the first time I've been in a fight'... or 'I think I'd like to do a martial art cos it looks cool and I would not mind being fit.'
| Quote: |
Saying martial arts is for self defence or for health is total crap in my opinion.
I've heard the self defence line so many times. It's not for self defence, if you want to learn self defence, take up sprinting.
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Then I must be talking total crap I guess ...
I've done a number of Chinese fighting styles, Boxing, Judo, Greek Roman Wrestling etc lots and lots. Also been whupped a couple of times (not too many lol).
Here's my two quid. If you want to do a martial art for sport and fitness it will not really matter what you choose, shop around and find out what you like. Don't sign up for a long haul and commit financially to anything longer than a month until you decide you like it. Be wary of any schools or teachers that seem over eager for you to join up and commit financially to fees.
If you want to really get into the self defence side of things then you should shop a lot more selectively. Choose a style based on the personality, conviction and skill of the teacher/s. It's not a simple thing to mentally condition yourself to deal with the reality of 'real' everyday survival style of fighting. The physical conditioning is a lot easier to do.
I also think it's important to know that fighting should be a last resort to any confrontation. If you can run away or get yourself out of a scuffle, avoid a confrontation and get on with your life then do it in preference of the 'I'm a karate fighter and I kick ass' mentality. Chicks are not impressed by fighter type guys, contrary to the crap that spews forth from hollywood.
Lastly, no one style reigns supreme. There are individuals within those disciplines that definitely kick the proverbial. Then again, they would probably bust arse whatever style they chose to do.
| Quote: |
Trying to kick someone in the head is like trying to punch someone in the foot.
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[Updated on: Wed, 29 June 2005 07:53]
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 01 July 2005 09:35
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| no_tofu_speed wrote on Sun, 26 June 2005 04:54 |
arts known for jumping kicks like traditional taekwondo were highly efficent back in the day for what they were used for... which was often demounting people off horses etc...
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A jumping kick.. alot of your power and effort is used in the action of jumping, less to put into the kick, you are not supported by the ground and all the power is relied on previous momentum from the initial push; this can be easily deflected putting them off balance and centre in the air (not fun I can tell you if you have had it done to you).
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dude if u know ur stuff, traditional taekwondo is not all about kicking. traditional tkd by the founder general choi, is only about 100 yrs old, maybe less. and no, i think when taekwondo came about ppl were already riding in jeeps, holding guns, not horses!!
the all kicking tkd that is so well known is the idea of WTF (world taekwondo federation, not wat da fark!!!) which is made for competitions ie the olympics.
dude what do u mean by deflecting a jumping kick?? if u mean blocking, its gonna hurt ur arm like nobodies business. and less power put into kick coz ur jumping n have momentum, less power required for kick!! so its a good thing less power into kick
i have a strong feeling u dont know ur stuff dude
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 01 July 2005 09:57
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One point of his that you seem to have missed is that when you're in the air, the only force you can bring is your own mass and your momentum.
You can't use the ground to give you strength.
Think of it as having a pole thrown at you as opposed to running into a pole that's stuck to the ground.
And it's not that hard to block a jumping kick. You just have to use the right block.
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 01 July 2005 10:34
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... Thats just my opinion from my lifes small experiences.
I am korean by blood and chose taekwondo when I was young. Moved between a couple of styles of TKD but trained for around 5 years, then found wing chun due to its effictiveness with short term training.
I am quite confident to "block" (deflect) any jump kick besides a full on running/charging linear jumping sidekick due to the power gained from pure momentum/thrust...
And taekwondo is not all kicks, it is just known for its kicking. But out of all the hand techniques I learnt in taekwondo I wouldnt use any of them really, besides maybe the spinning backfist as it had alot of power, but the general punching was pretty well...useless.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 01 July 2005 13:56
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Well I've studied Shaolin Kung Fu for about 7 years in the past. It was excellent for SKILLS but your fighting ability only really start increasing with REAL practice (theres a big difference between technique and application)
This means basically getting a group of skilled fighters and sparring barehand. You use about 70-80% power so when something does hit hard, it's not TOO bad.
You obviously need to void crippling techiniques like breaking, but it will happen from time to time as well. Critical points like throat/temples/groin etc are all allowable (gotta learn to block those 1st  )
You also need to keep sparring different people because eventually you'll learn each other's techniques. Problems will come up when someone starts getting shitty about losing and begins to fight at full capacity. We always had 2 separate judges to make sure things stayed relatively in control.
Either that or get into a crapload of fights.
And i do realise that this is a shallow view of martial arts. But if we're talking about "self defence" and the ability to take care of yourself, it becomes important. But with that said, the guys that train this way ARE real martial artists. It's to test their abilities and see how far they can push themselves.
Anyone that has fought in continuous full contact sparring (no not point sparring ) knows that a 2 or 3 min round doesn't sound like much... but do it for 10 rounds. The best of these guys go for a continuous (ZERO break) 30min spar with multiple opponents.
In regards to the Internal and External arts, obviously i would be primarily an external martial artist.
I have met and sparred an Internal master. He was UNSTOPPABLE. Yes i was able to hit him (in critical areas as well) but their bodies do not react in the same way. It is as much a mental process as a physical one. I did learn a few techniques from him but i stopped training soon after this so never had the time to develop them.
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Location:
Melbourne
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May 2002
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Re: Martial Arts
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Fri, 01 July 2005 15:31
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Someone who's a master of an internal art, regardless of what it is, though you may "hit" them, you probably CANT do any damage. It's frustrating isnt it You punch and kick and attack, and it's like that scene from kill bill, the blondie attackin the old dude with a sword.. just that feeling of I CANT HIT U DAMNIT!!!
Then when you finally do they're unmoved because, they've put their body in such a position that, it didn't do any damage! argh!!!
For anyone else that wants to know what this is like, try to punch a fly while it's in mid air, and chase it around and keep punching it till it can't fly no more.
haha this thread has gone SO FAR OFF TOPIC it's not funny.
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Location:
Newcastle
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August 2003
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 02 July 2005 08:19
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Th old dude from Kill Bill.... Gordon Liu.... hes a friggen legend!
Topic is still martial arts, like the thread title.... its all good!
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
south Melbourne/KL
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Martial Arts
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Sat, 02 July 2005 11:53
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| no_tofu_speed wrote on Sat, 02 July 2005 18:19 |
Th old dude from Kill Bill.... Gordon Liu.... hes a friggen legend!
Topic is still martial arts, like the thread title.... its all good!
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have u seen gordon's movies when he was young?? not bad at all
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