Author | Topic |
Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Wed, 29 June 2005 08:27
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I have a silver top 20V and I am going to most likely use these components:
- stock rods that have been balanced, linished and shot peened with arp rod bolts
- stock pistons (balanced)
- stock crank (balanced) with arp main studs, acl main bearings and new stock rod bearings
- slighly lightened 212mm flywheel (balanced and possibly shot peened)
- what would I be able to rev this thing to?
- is there some other limitations that would stop me getting to 9500rpm? I mean like more than a few times?
- am I being completely nieve? is the oil system ok?
- what else should I do to it?
any help is appreciated.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 06:18
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change of plans, i will use an ACL full bottom end bearing kit
I would of thought there would be a few people who have tried this but obviously not...
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Location: Rosanna, Melb
Registered: June 2002
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 07:11
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Your best bet is getting in touch with the guys who build race engines:
Terry O'Bierne from Road and Track
Bill Sherwood
Toby from Meridian Motorsport
Possibly Matt from Toyospares, he rallies one.
all spring to mind, but a phone book and racing mag should help find more.
From what I have overheard, stock parts are only good to 8500ish. Beyond that you need the good stuff.
Hen
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 07:20
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from a metallurgists point of view.. when you start revving motors that high, it is not so much a matter of IF it will break, but WHEN it will break.
by using stronger parts and changing them regularly, you avoid the issue of total, engine-fatal, failure.
also for higher rpm, you need to look at lighter parts, to reduce the moving mass and reduce the strain on associated components.. lighter AND stronger is where it gets expensive...
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 07:26
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henn: not a bad idea, I might talk to Sean maloney, he might get a bit funny when i talk about stock rods though..
oldcorollas: so you think the rods would fatauge over time and one day just let go? I dont mind changing bearings every so often.
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Location: Toronto, Downtown
Registered: September 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:00
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i guess it also depends on how long you rev it at 9500rpm if you drive it on the street and only rev it out to 9.5k every now and then it may last longer than if you rev it to 9.5k on the track where the engine is going to stay high up in the revs all the time
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:17
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oh yeah sorry my mistake I should of said the application. I would not regually take it up that high, but only occasionly around corners or for some traffic light fun. I would sometimes hold it at 8000 during a corner but not more. I heard these engines in stock form can hold at 8500, is that true?
so for a stocker whats it take to break one? I mean like rev it till it throws a rod or something
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Location: Toronto, Downtown
Registered: September 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:21
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do a burnout for about 10 minuites sit it right on the limiter then stop if the engine hasnt broken the repeat until the you have acheived the desired effect
this will then give you an excuse to rebuild the motor with stronger internals
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:22
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ok.. a quick fatigue lesson.
a rod/part will fail when a crack gets to a certain length.
every rod has imperfections and flaws in it that can create a crack, even polished/shotpeened.
a crack that has been initiated will continue to grow when a force is applied above a certain threshold. this threshold level decreases as the crack gets bigger, and for a given force, the length a crack grows per loading cycle will also (generally) increase as crack length grows.
that said, the smaller the crack starters and imperfections are, the higher the initial force to create the crack in the first place.. polishing a rod decreases the size of initial defects ont he surface, but also can put nice sharp grooves in it you'd wanna go to a nice 1-3 micron finish (1200grit is about 15 micron finish iirc)
shotpeening puts compressive stresses in the surface, and marginall decreases the total strength of the rod!, BUT, the compressive stress helps to close any cracks that are initially present, and slows the growth of any cracks that do start...
so in summary.
there are ALWAYS cracks/imperfections in parts.
polishing makes them smaller, and shotpeening helps them stay closed.
below a certain level of force, the cracks will not get bigger.
above a cetain level of force, the cracks will ALWAYS get bigger, and as they get bigger, they will get bigger faster for the same level of force.
a part will fail when a crack reaches a certain length.
for "level of force", read "RPM"
so basically the key to making a rod/part last is
a) reduce the force (rpm) or loading (weight of parts attached to it, ie pistons).
b) improve the surface finish to reduce crack initiation points.
c) improve part manufacturing to reduce internal defects.
d) make part out of more fatigue resistant material.
e) reduce force and loading
f) replace part at regular intervals
what you can do when racing is to have an hour meter.. when the hour meter reaches a certian level, you replace certain parts... just like they do for planes
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Location: qld
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:33
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you dont need those types of revs anyway. you can make alot of power with less revs than that. shane binghams (white 86 drift car that was in every other drift battle/HPI for while) used less than 9k to make near 200hp.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:49
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slydar wrote on Thu, 30 June 2005 18:33 | you dont need those types of revs anyway. you can make alot of power with less revs than that. shane binghams (white 86 drift car that was in every other drift battle/HPI for while) used less than 9k to make near 200hp.
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4AGEs making 200hp at the wheels are up around 9-9500rpm on any non-liberal dyno.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 08:54
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oldcorollas: thanks for the great info, hmm I wonder what aftermarket rods cost? What revs do you think I could do in the long term without needing an hour meter?
slydar: your right but you have misunderstood, I never said anything about doing this for power, as I will run standard cams. If I was after power this would be a huge contradiction (or ignorance!!). I am mainly interested in doing this for cornering reasons. If I have a long corner or I havent chosen the best gear being the human I am I can keep accellerating, as if I run out of revs and have to get off the power that would majorly unbalance my car and well stop me accelerating!
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 09:13
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but the stock cams will stop you accelerating when the motor runs out of puff... i guess if you stay in gear, the motor will hit the breathing wall before bits let go (you'd hope)...
with bigger cams, it can make it easier to over rev...
case in point, stock 4K cam, valve bounce and out of puff by about 6500, but with cam etc etc etc, if i keep on it during a badly geared corner, it'd sit around 8-8500 (ie it is losing torque up there)
a missed shift would bounce to around 9000+.. but this is bad mmkay...
i think the solution to your problem is just driving skills pick your gears and don't lose rear grip, and you don't have to worry about rpm...
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 14:18
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I think have the ability to rev to 8500 is more than enough for long corners but I guess I like to have the comfort of having the headroom.
The thing is this is coming quite cheaply for me too, I get a massive discount for acl gear and I am balancing the rods and pistons myself, the shot peening is also for free. I dont think i will rev it past 9 when i get it, I don't want it to blow up one day because of some crack.
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Registered: June 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 15:05
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Ill start by saying im relatively new to this, my other car is a holden. Can someone please fill me in as to why anyone would want to rev so high? When im driving the holden hard i shift at around 5200RPM, anything over that and i drastically lose KWs and NM (torque). I can understand if your trying to drift i guess, but it still doesn't make sense. Increase the power of the engine and sit in a higher gear.(? third over second. Or is that called lower? i get confused). It just seems strange to drive a car that hard if your not interested in upgrading power. Could someone please fill me in, i think I'm missing something important.
Cheers, Errol
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Location: tallahassee FL usOFa
Registered: May 2002
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Location: Central Coast
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 21:15
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yep your right you dont need to rev high just HARD..
HP is a BULLSHIT figure. it only sells cars. Torque wins races.
(the higher the revs the higher the HP but that doesnt mean your car is powerful or fast)
BUT if you want to re the nut off your car then this is what you do. Get BIG arse camshafts and dial them in so that you rev out to 10K and put a rev limiter on it.
the next thing you have to understand is that if you dont have the torque through the rev range then you will never get to 9500RPM even if your motor can handle it.
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Location: Toronto, Downtown
Registered: September 2004
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Forum Sponsor
Location: Shepparton (Vic)
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 22:13
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I have had a special 4Age( large port type) that we were reving to 9500 in a rally car. We had a special crank that had had extensive mods, We used standard rods with arp bolts, flash ground, and shot peened.It also had cosworth pistons. The rods were the downfall.When a rod lets go at that sort of revs there is not much left. This engine also caused havoc with harmonics.
I ended up using a 100 kw type bottom end (Prepared) with milder cams . It ran to 8500 all the time and was a much nicer engine and lasted forever.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 22:18
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like I said this isnt for power or torque, and I definetly am not interested in drifting. This is so that I won't run out of revs during a long sweeping corner and have to get off the power. It does come back to what oldcorollas said though, if I get the gear right then I shouldn't need it, but if then if I do... also incase I accidently lose traction I don't want to bust my engine, it's good to have that extra insurance. You see I busted a main bearing once because I did such a thing.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Thu, 30 June 2005 22:25
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what does flash ground mean? is that the same as linished? so did one of your rods actually let go in the end? if so how long were you able to use it before that happened? did you used to hold it up at those revs for long?
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Location: Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered: March 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:08
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[quote Sam_Q wrote This is so that I won't run out of revs during a long sweeping corner and have to get off the power. .[/quote]
Sam
Shift into the next higher gear.
emmac
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:22
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shift gear mid corner?? right... I dont have a death wish
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:27
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heh heh, i believe they call it "short-shifting" .. shift up before the corner so you don't run out of revs
as far as why you rev higher.. it's all about gearing... twice the revs with same torque (at same car speed), means twice as much torque at the wheels
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:39
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I agree completely, as for why I don't just "short shift" sometimes I can't tell how long the corner is and it become apparent I am in the wrong gear. If I was on a track I am sure it would be quite different.
So I guess the basic summary is that I can do this cheaply so I figure why not, its good insurance against my driving mistakes and mishaps.
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:50
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or you could do what everyone else does and stop accelerating
if you decide you are not in the right gear, there is no point in continuing to try and push it.. just accept that you've made the wrong choice
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 00:56
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now wheres the fun in that!!! hehehehe yeah your right though if I gently get off the power it wouldnt disturb the balance too much.
One day I should try driving like a normal person I think.
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Location: Baulko Hillo
Registered: April 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 01:11
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Sam_Q wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 10:56 | now wheres the fun in that!!! hehehehe yeah your right though if I gently get off the power it wouldnt disturb the balance too much.
One day I should try driving like a normal person I think.
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Are you racing against the clock or something man? I just don't understand why it's so important that you're going to rebuild your engine. If you're driving on a track, you learn after a lap or two what gear should be used, and driving on public twisties it's the same deal.
My 20V never ran out of revs on either track or road and I rarely revved it past 7,000rpm
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Registered: June 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 03:27
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Yeah i guessed at much, I still dont see why your trying to get it to rev so high, theres more pleasure in being a better driver, hence why they have limitations on race cars, its possible to have a car completly driven by a computer, (F1 bordering on that now)
Yeah i understand F1 cars can rev to 18000 rpm, even higher. But corret me if im wrong but F1 cars arnt powered by a old toyota 4age engine. Im pretty sure theres a bit more technology in f1's than any toyota street car
Just learn to drive a better, and does it really make that much difference if your in the wrong gear? ok so your a little slower though the corner LEARN FROM IT, repeat the corner and get it right. How important is it to get it right first time. Plus you'll be a better driver for it. I have more respect for a driver who can safely push the limits of his car than someone in a better car driving it badly.
Just my two cents. No offence intended.
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Location: Gippsland Lakes. Vic.
Registered: March 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 03:58
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[quote title=Sam_Q wrote on Wed, 29 June 2005 18:27]
am I being completely nieve? quote]
Sam
YES.
emmac
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Location: Central Coast
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 13:23
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I use to have a similar problem and I dont like short shifting much but sometimes for some corners its better then running out of efficent revs. BTW no one has mentioned changing gear ratios or even diff ratios.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 23:44
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for 99% of the time I am fine. I have managed to deal with driving a 4ac engine through the hills and having to short shift with that and we all know how short the usable rev range is in that lump. For me occasionly I come to a corner and I misread it, or can't see it that well and it ends up being longer that I anticipate. I don't think I will ever need to rev it past 8000, even when this happens but I like to have the option of doing so.
I must clarify that I am not taking a running engine apart to modify it to rev more, I have an engine that's going to get a freshen up and was going to receive some new ACL bottom end bearings regardless, the only difference is I ordered some ARP bits aswell. I am more curious of what the engine can do rather than trying to build it so it can sustain those revs. Because afterall I would have to be in completely the wrong gear to need those revs, I don't think anyone is that bad a driver.
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Location: Sydney
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Fri, 01 July 2005 23:54
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stock silver top crank and rods can rev up to 9500 everyday of the week.
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I Supported Toymods
Location: Perth
Registered: May 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 03:15
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i love the sound my motor makes at rev limiter.....i would like it much more if the limiter was higher
i know what you mean about making a motor rev higher....but what people have missed here is that there is another aproach to lengthening your gears......how about you change the diff ratio....basically you will achieve the same result and it might be a cheeper way then making your motor rev out...
although a 4age at 9500 does sound very damn sexy in my opinion...
Adam
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Location: Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 03:52
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Get a good 42mm crank, get it lightened & shotpeened then balanced carefully.
Get brand-new 100kW conrods and ARP bolts.
Get some good forged pistons, such as SPS, etc.
Never worry about the bottom end again.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 06:37
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thanks Bill, what do you think is the limit of the rods with ARP bolts? Mine have only done 40,000 km so I should be fine. Would a silvertop have a 42mm crank?
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 06:44
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I was just thinking it would be completely different with aftermarket pistons because they would weigh a stack less and henceforth put less inertia force on the con-rod, so lifting their max rpm. Just curious I don't want them but what are some of these SPS pistons worth?
also is the arp main stud kit a waste of money?
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Location: Central Coast
Registered: January 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 09:12
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hey bill...
anyways I did mention the diff ratio.. that the best option. (cheapest)
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Location: Sydney
Registered: September 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 09:12
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Sam_Q wrote on Sat, 02 July 2005 16:44 |
also is the arp main stud kit a waste of money?
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Do you mean the head studs? I've heard that for a 20V engine you need TWO sets of ARP 4age head stud kits. That means $440 for head studs!!
There are 2 sized studs in the one kit... i think you need the longer ones all round.
Eddie.
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Location: Sydney
Registered: September 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 09:15
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Oh and the silvertop WILL have the 42mm crank. I think the reason Bill says to get the redtop rods is that they're slightly chunkier in the mid-section compared to 20v ones.
Eddie.
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Location: Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sat, 02 July 2005 13:49
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Sam_Q wrote on Sat, 02 July 2005 16:37 | thanks Bill, what do you think is the limit of the rods with ARP bolts? Mine have only done 40,000 km so I should be fine. Would a silvertop have a 42mm crank?
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Limit in terms of revs or life?
If you do a good job of putting it together, the other parts of the engine will need rebuilding before the bottom end lets go.
And yes the silvertop crank is a 42mm one.
AE86Trader wrote on Sat, 02 July 2005 19:12 | hey bill...
anyways I did mention the diff ratio.. that the best option. (cheapest)
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Agreed but diff ratio's don't alter the safe rev limit of the engine.
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: January 2004
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sun, 03 July 2005 13:11
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I meant a main stud kit as in a stud kit for the main bearings, not the head. Is that a waste of time?
Arch: have some respect
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Location: Perth
Registered: November 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sun, 03 July 2005 21:14
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I have seen a mate with a gemini rev his motor to 9000 and a little beyond . and all his motor has is custom cams and springs.
He said that he worked the motor into behaving this way by reving it harder and harder (street dragging in a gemini requires giving it a bit). Admittedly the engine suffered a ring fracturing and damaging bore and pistons. But It showed the next weak link in the chain. He later put a G200 in instead.
the 4ag should be able to work just as hard if not harder with simular mods.
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Location: nelson, new zealand
Registered: October 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Sun, 03 July 2005 22:38
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the 100kw can have both the early type and late type rods....
so doubkle check before you buy. a well prepped set of late types will handle 9500. what you definitly DONT want to use is black top ones!
i thinks theres actually an ARP kit for the 20v.....
ARP rod bolts should be compulsary for any high revving 4age
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: January 2004
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 05:27
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Sam_Q wrote on Fri, 01 July 2005 09:52 | shift gear mid corner?? right... I dont have a death wish
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Whats wrong with shifting mid corner? Or am I just more of a nut case driver then I thought?
I mean, what happens if your on a corner that opens up, then sometimes you just gotta do it.
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Location: Campbelltown
Registered: November 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 06:14
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shifting mid corner upsets the handling because of a sudden weight shitft, this is why many autos aren't good on the track and why holden brags about the new 5 speed same box as in the bmw's holds gears whilst cornering hard to stop the handling balance from beign unsettled.
Think hard throttle weight shifting rearwards, lift throttle weight shift forwards reapply throttle weight shifts rearwards again, not good mid corner mmmkay
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 06:44
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Corona RT142: very well said, it's amazing how many people can't feel this. I find it realy dissettleing to drive an auto around a corner.
Mr Revhead: as I said earlier I have ordered an arp rod bolt set and a stud kit for the main bearings. I just want to know if the main stud kit is a waste of money.
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 06:48
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For anyone who is interested:
ARP main stud kit for crank bearings: 203-5403 - $130
ARP Rod Bolt Kit: 203-6001 - $70
these prices are from vpw.com.au - (03)8405 9200
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 07:42
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the suggestion would be to not actually drive to this limit on public roads... what happens when a kid darts onto the road? both you and them are fucked.
seriously.. it's not a good idea to be so close to the limit on a public road that shifting will make you lose it...
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Location: S.E suberbs, Vic
Registered: December 2003
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 07:49
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you know what? I agree
however I don't push it that hard that a gear change would cause me to lose it, it just would scare the crap out of me and make me have to do a very quick correction in the steering. Add to that I only go fast when there's no-one around. I push the limits only in places where kids or bike riders never go or atleast are well and truly not there, ontop of that it's usually late at night.
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Location: Sydney
Registered: June 2005
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Re: Building a 4age for 9500 revs
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Mon, 04 July 2005 08:35
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While probably not entirely applicable to the engine in question, I've noticed some of the Atlantic teams in the US are starting to off-load their surplus TRD stuff following Toyota's decision to withdraw from openwheelers.
Might be something to keep in mind if there is some concern about the durability of rods,etc in a high RPM situation.
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