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improvedae86
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January 2003
 
Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Sun, 03 July 2005 10:07 Go to next message
Well i have seen a lot of Myths posted around about the steering lock of the AE86 using different arms , lower control arms , racks etc . Well i discided whilst doing a AE86 to S13 front coversion to take measurements from a few cars to dispell all the Myths .

1. Aus spec , using stock arms etc 45' - 47'

2. Powersteering ? anyone got a car to check , i wouldn't think there would be much lock . More like 35' - 40' due to the width of the rack on the left hand side reducting the lock.

3. Manual rack with powersteering arms , stock Ae86 lowercontrol arms , and tierods . 60' As per the trueno in the picture : Angle view , note the tyres hit the inner guard area front and rear with Aus spec rims even with this stock set up Rolling Eyes

http://x2.putfile.com/7/18304374724-thumb.jpg

:Front view , left hand side is still stock .

http://x2.putfile.com/7/18304420343-thumb.jpg

:Now a big surprise , S13 hub conversion , S13 Suspension conversion using AE86 spring etc , non stock lca , non stock tie rod , manual rack , 60' with the lock limited by the lower arm , 7.5' rims .

http://x2.putfile.com/7/18304452434-thumb.jpg

:Now with the arm reversed without lock limited 70' with 7.5' tyres and 38' offset rims , left & right , inner and outer turning 10' difference as per normal ackermann angles , and the tyres clear the inner guard with ease

http://x2.putfile.com/7/18304473663-thumb.jpghttp://x2.putfile.com/7/18304511287-thumb.jpg

:This is all due to the pivot location distance , this picture show why

http://x2.putfile.com/7/18304571492-thumb.jpg

Yeap same distance as a powersteer AE85/AE86 , but futher in location and drop in ball joint height as the S13 is wider track for the correct ackermann angle . So it is posable to have a wider track AE86 with the correct ackermann angle , and have steering lock far greater than the AE86 suspension set up cheaply with S13 hubs and struts ?.

Anyone else got angles and pictures from there setups to compare .

Also the Trueno in the pictures is for Sale Wink
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Bill Sherwood
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Sun, 03 July 2005 12:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
improvedae86 wrote on Sun, 03 July 2005 20:07

2. Powersteering ? anyone got a car to check , i wouldn't think there would be much lock . More like 35' - 40' due to the width of the rack on the left hand side reducting the lock.


I run PS arms on my manual rack (there's no difference between a manual and power rack) and there's about 7% more speed in the PS arms. Also more lock though I don't know how much sorry.
My car can turn right around in some very tight spots, not possible in a stock AE-86.
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Bill Sherwood
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Sun, 03 July 2005 12:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Here's a pic I took of the difference between the two.

http://www.club4ag.com/faq%20and%20tech_pages/Tech%20Photos/AE-86_steering_arms.jpg
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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 07:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Yeah i wonder what the ackermann angle is like on the powersteering models standard , that arm is alot shorter than the manual ones Wink
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shinybluesteel
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 08:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
adam, by correct ackerman, do you mean factory ackerman or "correct" ackerman as in the right amount of anti-ackerman or whatever.

i'm no expert in the field, but i have heard/read that true ackerman isnt always the way to go, as a car doesn't usually corner about a point on a line that passes through both back wheels.

especially if you are.... dare i say it... drifting, but that is a "special" case of handling anyway i guess.

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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 08:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
As in factory , yes sometimes its far faster on the track having the inner turning wheel pull the car in that direction using the friction of the tyre being out of true ackermann angle .
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takai
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 13:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
This is the faulty Quaife steering rack as well by the way.
http://gallery.plebeians.net/albums/sparky_rebuild/IMG_0007_001.sized.jpg

Just so people can tell the difference
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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 20:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Takai , how is that going to make the ratio different ? Apart from being the wrong pitch doesn't it have the same number of teeth ? Did you every recieve the correct parts from quaife yet ?
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takai
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Mon, 04 July 2005 22:34 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The big difference in the two is the pinion. Which i didnt take a photo of. I actually just dug that out of the archives of photos i took for another guy.

The Quaife pinion has a far larger tooth size than the standard and therefore reduces the steering ratio.

The main problem with the Quaife rack is that the teeth end too soon on the inner side (LHS), which cause the rack to bind before the rod ends limit travel by hitting the housing.

And no, i havnt gotten my new rack yet at all.
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truenosedan
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 01:38 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i run manual rack with uras extra lock tie rod end spacers (bought for customer who bailed, my rack was apart so i through them in) and power steering arms...seems to have plenty of lock


improved interesting with the s13 gear....that is ridicolous lock Evil or Very Mad Very Happy
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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 06:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Truenosedan , what does a extra tie rod spacer kit have ?
I am wondering how you get extra lock with any tie rod , due to the intersection point being the same , does it make the stock internal rack spacers / stoppers smaller ? Got a picture of it
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c2888
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 08:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
http://www.battleversion.com/ae86_steering_spacers .htm
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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 10:04 Go to previous messageGo to next message
There's a big problem with adding spacers into the rack itself . { I would comment more on that company's work but that already results in the Probation < }

That moves the lowercontrol pivot location out of alignment with the inner tie rod joint , what this will cause is the incorrect alignment rules for macpherson suspension . What this will cause is non factory ackemann due to the shortening of the tierod length overall . Secondly the lower control arm pivot {lower bush point } to inner tie rod alignment is parallel on the macpherson in the AE86 , what this achieves is in the plane of movement up and down in the suspensions working operation the toe in / toe out characteristics do not change .

Basically moving the that inner tie rod joint location will make the suspension toe in on braking from memory , lots of macpherson designs do have this plane offset . A example that comes to mind of changing this characteristic is the E30 bmw , stock models have a different plane compared to the M versions , the M version have a offset lower control arm mount at the rear to produce more camber as well as this change making the suspension geometry toe out under heavy braking since is the higher speed model .

Making the vehicle toe in from spacing that tie rod point would result in if the vehicle was fitted with a non drift spring rate {ie something that allows dive when braking hard} would result in a dangerously light feel at the wheel , as well as pushing produced when turning under braking . Toe in can be used for stability in braking not by direction turning wheels , ie rear wheels as induction tyre slip angle as contact pressure is reduced as the weight transfer is applied to the front wheels .

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c2888
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 16:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Would it be possible to machine the inner tie rod ends on the rack end, so they are the same diametre as the steering rack shaft? any problems with doing this?

heres some that were prepared earlier
http://www.rodmillenstore.com/prodinfo.aspx?partID =XUU0044

wonder if they bend like regular ones, for 158usd you'd hope not Very Happy

dan
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improvedae86
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Re: Ae86 Steering Lock Myths & Facts Tue, 05 July 2005 20:33 Go to previous message
Those ones might have a different offset joint , or smaller joint keeping the same distance of the tie rods . It would be nice to see them side by side with the stock ones Rolling Eyes
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