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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Wed, 20 July 2005 23:36
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I don't know if anyone can help me here, but my 3S-GTE isn't warming up right.
- Symptoms: "Poppy" cold/startup idle (ie. not smooth)
Temperature gauge needle not moving very far
A'PEXi hand controller says that it's only getting as far as 46°C when warm
Problem is INTERMITTENT, ie. it happens sometimes when I'm pulled up at the lights, and sometimes goes away as quickly as it came, once it corrected itself by stabbing the throttle once and then it went back to a normal idle
On that last point, I was watching the hand controller, and the water temp reading jumped from 40°C to 46°C when I stabbed the throttle once, so I'm thinking it's a sensor issue (if that's possible)
Boost gauge sits around 10-12in.Hg (Vac) while it's doing this, instead of the usual ~20in.Hg at warm idle. While it's doing this, it maintains a "poppy" idle
RPM sit at around 700-800 instead of the usual 1000 or so RPM it has at warm idle. Remember this thing still doesn't have a thermo-switch in the system yet so the fans still run full-time, which makes the system cooler and not usually go above 60°C, except when you flogg it and then it won't move past 65°C.
Other than this, the car drives normally, apart from the drop in revs between gears associated with a cold idle.
- Suspect: Sensor or sender, somewhere in the cooling system (if it's possible)
Loose wire, or ECU? I ask this because of the sporadic nature of this problem. I haven't considered thermostat yet because it doesn't seem to fit anywhere, but cooling system is fine other than that.
If anyone can give me something to work on, or if they know what the source of this problem is (which has only happened very intermittently the last two days, and more often today), please post a reply. It doesn't seem to matter what conditions this happens in, as I gave it a 30km drive to work this morning in peak-hour traffic, including a bit of a run along the M4 as well. But I'm thinking the idle at warm, and the temperature are interrelated, but I'm not sure where.
Thanks in advance.
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Location:
Central Coast, NSW
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 00:09
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I don't have a 3SGTE, however the symptoms of the car not warming up properly, maintaing a cold temperature and not getting up to correct operating temp etc, all seem (to me) to point to thermostat. I had many similar problems with my GZ20 and they disappeared with the changing of thermostat.
Mostly, because, my old one was smashed into three pieces. I guess you could say it was "permanently" open. 
Although i also was calling an error code 22...
which on my car was "water thermo sensor signal", "open or short circuit in coolant temp sensor...
possible trouble areas for that were the tempt circuit, the temp sensor, or the ECU
have you called up the error codes yet and seen if you have returned the equivalent for a 3SGTE?
I may be right off, and if i am I apologise, just trying to help if i can.
Cheers
[Updated on: Thu, 21 July 2005 00:15]
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 05:23
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See I would have thought the thermostat to be the last of the possibliities... mostly because it never gets up to full operating temperature, and the thermostat is a TRD 71° unit. My thermostat is fully functional, but it jsut never opens because of the thermo fans and the car not having a thermo-switch. 
I don't have any error codes on mine at the moment, but how could I call up these codes if I wanted to?
I need a diagram of how to find the coolant temp sensor, if that's the cause.
Thanks.
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 06:25
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The problem is not the thermostat never opening because of your thermo's being on all the time. The thermostat controls the temperature of the coolant inside the engine. The radiator and fan only cool the water outside the engine.
A stuck open thermostat is by far the most likely cause for an engine never warming up properly.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 06:26
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i have a gen 2 3sgte i have the same problem almost undrivable for 3 or 4 minutes. so i take it as warm up time good for the engine  all the people with 3sgte's standard ecu or aftermarket have the same problem lol.. dont know wat it is doesnt really bother me as i let the car warm up for 5 or so mins anyway... i thought it may have been the tune on my ecu as the values change with temp etc
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Lara, Vic
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 08:32
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generally rust will kill a thermostat, or the spring breaking, something getting logged in it.
It is possible that after you pulled it out and then re-filled the system that some crap came off the walls of some pipes / inside the block, and jammed it open.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 08:59
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Yep thermostat stuck open + thermo fans keeping things extra cool + winter being extra cool!
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Toymods Vice President
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 09:02
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If turning off the thermo fans makes the car warm up quicker then you have a prblem with the thermostat.
The point of the thermostat is to keep the water in the block and the water in the radiator seperate until the engine is warmed up. If you can influence the temperature of the water in the engine by changing the temperature of the water in the radiator while the water in the engine is still below the thermostat temp then the thermostat is not doing it's job.
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Location:
Colac, Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 09:32
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most 3sgte's i know of run at about 87 - 89 degrees average operating temp - id concur - shes just not getting a chance to warm up due to teh thermostat
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 09:39
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just a note, on my 4K when i put on VDO temp sensors, you could see the water temp changing quite a lot. (when idling)
the temp would start to rise from thermostat temp (82), and take maybe 1 minute to creep up to 90-92deg, then it would quickly rise to about 95, then go quickly down to 82 in about 5 seconds... temp sensor was directly below thermostat.
as far as i can tell, the is perfectly normal operation for a thermostat that is just outside the block, on the "outward path" of the water...
ie water slowly warms up but temp inside block is higher.. when thermostat is hot enough to open, all the warm water flushes out, and is replaced by cold radiator water.. when the cold water hits the thermostat, it closes up again.
to relive this a bit, i drilled a 3 or 4mm hole in the thermostat to allow a little more flow during normal operation, rather than completely blockink (and having weird temp changes inside block)
as for your idle prob.. intake leak? what else causes idle to go lower and start popping apart from going lean? (ahh the good old carby days )
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 09:40
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forgot to mention. the stock toyota sensor and gauge, placed adjacent to the VDO one, is remarkably more stable.. taking a few minutes to really register a change in temp, and there is little movement for large temp swings "within operating temp range"
where is the temp sensor placed? is it cal;ibrated correctly?
why such a low temp thermostat?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 09:46
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My dads Ef coon was running like a dog as well. We replaced the thermostat and that fixed it too....
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 13:42
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I had a thermostat die within 6 months on a bog stock 4M !!!!
"Because she was a Virgin yesterday, does not mean she is one today"
Check your thermostat, as the other guys have said.
With low temperature, your idle air bypass wax capsule will not be able to control your idle airflow.
cheers Chuck.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 14:04
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Thermostat 
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 14:37
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oldcorollas - I'm using a low temp thermo because I like safety... after watching my engine endure once-off temps of 130°C at one stage and then getting the head repaired, I'm just playing it safe with a low-temp thermo, until I'm sure that it's not going to do what it did before. 
What's the recommendation for the ideal thermostat for a 3S-GTE anyway? 82°C?
I just know my thermostat is a right bitch to get to... as the GT-Four credo goes; "remove intercooler", ...  there's bugger-all room to work in there.
Now I get a better explanation of how things work with the thermostat and the thermo-fans, it seems more likely to be thermostat after all. It was just REALLY weird what was going on this morning.
Talk about intermittent, it didn't do it once on the way home tonight...
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 15:11
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bugger, intermitent probs are the worst of all (xcept electrical gremlin intermittent probs)... hmm, 3SGTE certainly does look packed in there
fwiw, no thermostat will prevent overheating problems.. the only way it can affect overheating is if a) it sticks shut cos no cold water gets back in, or b) it falls apart and water doesn't have enough residence time in the radiator
think of it as a low temperature flow restrictor.... or a thermostat
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Thu, 21 July 2005 23:07
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get rid of that 71deg TuRD thermostat and buy a proper 82deg one
then set up a thermo switch
As crUZida says: "do it once do it right", else your car will keep having problems.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Fri, 22 July 2005 02:45
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Yeah, well we tried doing it right first time before... Must remember to get it right the next first time then. 
I think I have a spare 82°C thermostat somewhere. It still didn't do it again this morning, nor at lunchtime when I took it for a quick lunch run. Seems sus...
Thanks for all your help guys.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Fri, 22 July 2005 13:22
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come to think of it, during the cold my 7m doesnt like idling smoothly...but it still warms up tho. It has a thermostat.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Fri, 22 July 2005 13:25
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| RAV-GT4 wrote on Fri, 22 July 2005 12:45 |
Yeah, well we tried doing it right first time before... Must remember to get it right the next first time then.
I think I have a spare 82°C thermostat somewhere. It still didn't do it again this morning, nor at lunchtime when I took it for a quick lunch run. Seems sus...
Thanks for all your help guys.
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so it only happens occasionally? does sound sus.. like a sticky thermostat jk
regardless, when at temp it should never ever go below the thermostat temp, unless the stat is not restricting flow like it should.. when you had it out, did it actually close right up?? maybe part of the "sports" speil is that it still allows flow even when cold?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Sat, 23 July 2005 07:35
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After you do your thermostat change:
Disconnect thermo fans,
Fill cooling system,
Cut the arse end out of a 1.25 litre soft drik bottle, insert neck of bottle into radiator filler, and half fill the bottle with coolant/water whatever you are using.
Run engine till warmed up, and bubbles stop rising into the bottle. Monitor the engine temp from in car.
When your thermostat opens, you will get a surge of water into the bottle.
When satified that all air is purged from system, remove soft drink bottle, refit radiator cap, and reconnect thermofans.
The above procedure could take 20-30 mins, but will purge all air from your cooling system
Part of your problem, may have been that there are pockets of air in the cooling system. If so, sensors/senders may be sitting in air pockets, and not registering temperature correctly.
cheers Chuck.
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Tue, 02 August 2005 07:38
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Ok, while there's no bubbles coming out of the radiator and coolant is all good (no air pocket in the system), I noticed some other symptoms attributed to this problem...
The exhaust system is pushing out a lot of smoke and fuel consumption seems to be increased, going by the stuffed-up needle and how it usually behaves. Even though all air in the cabin is sealed (windows are up, vents closed), I can still smell exhaust in the cabin when this occurs.
Also when decelerating in a low gear (like 2nd), the car shudders like the drivetrain distribution is temporarily out and it's shuddering back and forth, like the same that would happen if the car were dead-cold and you were accelerating instead.
I've no idea about this problem now, but it seems to not be limited to the cooling system, and maybe into the car's engine control, like MAP sensor or ECU, something like that.
Anyone heard of an A'PEXi Power FC f*cking up or losing tune? I know the MAP sensor is dicky, but it hasn't posed any problems lately.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Tue, 02 August 2005 07:52
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it could be timing....it can cause cars to run either hot or cold....and behave like a dog.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Tue, 02 August 2005 14:27
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the decelleration thing does like like a cold engine.
I tend to think someone has done a TRD "race-spec" thermostat akin to KOFEE-BLACK with your 3S....
Thermostats are good yo!
Typical operating temps for cooling system are around 85-95degC.
45degC is COOOOOLD!
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Car stays cold... (idle/temp problem)
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Wed, 03 August 2005 06:42
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I believe I've sussed the problem.... it's the FRICKIN MAP SENSOR AGAIN!!!
It's a dicky unit at best, but lately it hasn't been giving me any troubles... I tweaked it last night before I went home from work, and it was still doing it when I kicked the car over first time. So I fiddled with the positioning of the MAP on the firewall, it cut the engine (as expected), I kicked it over again, it worked it's way back up to it's usual idle and in peak hour it got up to 60°C yesterday. I've had no more bitching from my car since then...
A'PEXi AVC-R would be a nice thing to have right now... has a MAP sensor of it's own included.
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