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Location:
SA
Registered:
November 2004
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Location:
QLD, Gold Coast
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 25 July 2005 22:27
 
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i would say yes thats a good figure, as standard type r's DC2s put out about 95-105kw at the wheels, but i would say the torque is rather little, are you sure its 112kw at the wheels and not at the engine?
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Location:
Victoria, Melbourne
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 25 July 2005 23:41
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is a 184 suppose to be a 185? dumb question but wot is a 184 really?
i thought it was just 182 standard and 185 gt4
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Location:
Hobart, tassie
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 00:21
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well I had a dead stock sr20 de with a pod filter in me old Ae71 and that made 80rwkw's was very dissapointed. Specially after just coming from a 164rwkw holden v8 and 148rwkw rb20det.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 00:56
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dude i was at that dyno day my mr2 turbo pulled 134kw so your doin pretty well!!
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Location:
Gold Coast, QLD
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 01:07
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| verbatim210 wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 09:41 |
is a 184 suppose to be a 185? dumb question but wot is a 184 really?
i thought it was just 182 standard and 185 gt4
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ST184 was the Australian delivered 5th gen FWD Celica. The JDM one was the ST182. The reason for the difference is that the Aus version came with the 5SFE engine, while the JDM version had the 3SGE, hence the different codes.
Those ending in "2" are fitted with 3S series engines, hence the 4th gen ST162, 5th gen ST182 and 6th gen ST202. Those ending in "4" have 5S series engines. The 5th and 6th gen Celicas came to Australia with 5SFE engines, hence ST184 and ST204 instead. Both engines have pretty much the same block (S-series), but different capacities: 3S = 2.0L, 5S = 2.2L.
Of course, those ending in "5" are the GT-Fours, with 3S-GTE motors as you have already identified.
-Matt
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 02:34
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chitown383 -> That dyno result is pretty fair.
Comparing dyno figures is a bit tricky, because *every* (and i mean every) dyno will read differently, they will be calibrated differently, and every dyno runs a 'fudge' factor. We ran an S12 on the dyno later in the day that made 67kw - then we just changed the fudge factor and the dyno magically came up with 80kw 
And the 'torque' figure is subject to gearing - most runs were done in 5th gear I think, in which case you need to correct for that.
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Location:
Adelaide - Race Central
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 03:08
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^^^^^^
yep......absolutely right!! to get a true figure, you need to get a car that has been on the same dyno, preferably with same tuner!! A midly modified MR2 with a 3sge put out 100rwkw on the dyno where mine did 97rwkw. comparing that mine is some 10years earlier than the MR2, i'd say mine is good!
again..to get a fair figure....you'd need to be on the same dyno!
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Location:
SA
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 03:10
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cheers guys,
i been reading around and average loss from flywheel to wheels is 15-18% (????????) so if that were the case i would be gettin roughly 132kw at the fly. But how come stock cars such as the dc2r, prelude vtir and corolla sportivos which are rated at 140+kw at the fly are getting dyno results between 100 and 110kw at the wheels, this is almost more than 25% loss???
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Location:
QLD, Gold Coast
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 03:12
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I agree with that jonchai, better to stick with the same tuner and dyno, unless you got a 3sfe stock putting 200kw at the wheels then its safe to say its a bogus dyno machine.
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Location:
QLD, Gold Coast
Registered:
February 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 03:15
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| chitown383 wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 13:10 |
cheers guys,
i been reading around and average loss from flywheel to wheels is 15-18% (????????) so if that were the case i would be gettin roughly 132kw at the fly. But how come stock cars such as the dc2r, prelude vtir and corolla sportivos which are rated at 140+kw at the fly are getting dyno results between 100 and 110kw at the wheels, this is almost more than 25% loss???
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i believe the drive train loss is more then 15-18%, more in the regions of 25-30%, but the cars mentioned above have variable valve and ignition timing as well as high compressions 11:1 i believe, better tech as well.
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Location:
Adelaide - Race Central
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 03:20
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think of it this way!!!!
If all that mattered was numbers, dyno comp. entrants in Autosalon's would only need to show-up with a dyno graph! there is a reason why they do dyno runs on the same dyno, with same tuner, in a relatively short space of time. all this is because ambient temperature affect performance as does bogus offsets!
If you really want numbers...go to Morpowa. their readings are BRILLIANT... if you know what i mean.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 08:24
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Most MR2's with 2nd gen 3SGE's (often with simple mods) get 95-100kw at the wheels, so 112.4 is well above average. What was the 3SGE out of? Know much about what was done with the piggyback ECU?
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Location:
SA
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 09:07
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the 3sge came out of a 95 st202 celica, as for the piggyback ecu i have no idea how its been tuned as it came from an imported st202 ss-3 half cut. on the ecu box itslef there is an advance sticker of some sort but thats about it. anyway of findin out more about it??
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 09:59
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so you have a gen 3 3sge or mr2 bathurst same motor as they changed from 12month 93 from gen 2 to your gen 3
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
March 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 11:29
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Doesn't the st202 ss-II have a beams motor(200hp)?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 12:47
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dont you mean fwkw?
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 13:55
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Sorry, a little confused  My MR2 was RWD, so RWKW, his Celica is FWD so I should said FWKW. My bad.
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Location:
SA
Registered:
November 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 14:12
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ok im confused also. i always thought that the gen 1: 3sge was 165 ps (121.36 kw) / 6800 rpm, gen 2: 180 ps (132.39 kw) / 7000 rpm, and gen 3: 200 ps (147.10 kw) / 7000 rpm. these are flywheel results of the st202.
figures obtained from:
http://www.auto.vl.ru/catalog_eng/toyota/celica/19 95_8/
apparently both gen 2 & gen 3 engines look exactly the same according to some guy who did a gen 3 conversion on the oz celica forum???
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 26 July 2005 14:41
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Dude you are sweating way too much over the dyno result 
An ST202 has the Gen 3 3S-GE, not the Gen 2. Also - don't even bother trying to approximate your flywheel kw, it's not possible with a dyno to do so.
Also, Gen 3 and Gen 2 and Gen 1 3S-GE's came out in many different flavours and tunes in different countries/regions due to emissions regulations etc.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Wed, 27 July 2005 01:09
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| chitown383 wrote on Tue, 26 July 2005 22:12 |
ok im confused also. i always thought that the gen 1: 3sge was 165 ps (121.36 kw) / 6800 rpm, gen 2: 180 ps (132.39 kw) / 7000 rpm, and gen 3: 200 ps (147.10 kw) / 7000 rpm. these are flywheel results of the st202.
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You're skipping a generation.
The gen 2 from the ST182 and earlier SW20's is about 117kw. The ST202 had both the gen 3 132kw and the gen 4 BEAMS 147kw motors.
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Location:
nth ringwood, Victoria
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Wed, 27 July 2005 06:37
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the gen 4 beams came out the last 6months in the st202 ss3 version
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Location:
Victoria, Melbourne
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Thu, 28 July 2005 03:35
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hey matt thx for the reply
curious to know would the
2.2-fe own the
2.0-ge ?
coz i hear the ge head is more
performance oriented
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Location:
Victoria, Melbourne
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Thu, 28 July 2005 03:36
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(crap i clicked reply instead of pm)
how embarassing
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Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Sun, 31 July 2005 13:21
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3sge is faster then a 5sfe, even with the 200cc deficit. it revs higher, and is engineered better (well, its performance orientated).
ge runs proper cam/gears whereas the fe cams are gear linked internally so adjusting them is a bitch. ge heads are also more oval to make better power. other things such as valve angles etc are also different.
a 260hp+ 3sge is a drop off at tuner and pick up later affair, whereas getting someone to pull similar results from a 5sfe is going to be a bigger headache.
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Location:
Victoria, Melbourne
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Sun, 31 July 2005 14:19
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thanks terra, very helpful information indeed
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 09:39
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talk to jonchai he has spent $15k on his motor alone so he should be up there with the best of the 3sge's.
chitown383
there is nothing wrong with a pretty stock 3sge making making 150hp at the wheels. but id take it with a grain of salt. a full race version of a 7age does around the 200-220hp at the wheels depending on the chassis dyno. power figures still make me laugh, a $120k super tourer motor makes around the 300hp mark so,what can i say.
mick
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Registered:
July 2005
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 09:54
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TRD Japan have all the parts you need if you want to make monster na 3sge's ... now the hard bit is getting the money for it all
remember the old super tourers had A LOT of restirctions on them too, kinda like how WRC cars are restricted
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 10:44
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yes they did have a lot of restrictions, they could only turn the head the other way round,build them light{titanium vales at $300 each} and revvy{but only last 1000km},spend 100k's + on flowing heads,dry sumped,have mega dollars spent on tuning,have minimum power lose from auxiliaries,have very good intake system,optimum injector placement,etc etc.
mick
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 12:19
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| terra wrote on Sun, 31 July 2005 22:51 |
a 260hp+ 3sge is a drop off at tuner and pick up later affair, whereas getting someone to pull similar results from a 5sfe is going to be a bigger headache.
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That is ridiculous...to make 260hp from a 3S-GE takes a *lot* of work.
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Registered:
June 2003
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 12:58
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Nar, buy a beams and you're almost there haha . I'ld say 260 would be a lot of work, from the first gen that would be doubling output even gaining 60bhp from the 4th gen beams would be expensive to say the least.
As far as drivetrain loss is concerned it varies from car to car, for instance there was a dyno result of a sportivo corolla putting out i think it was around 120kw at the wheels, now if the dyno result is correct that's only 15% drivetrain loss. Also typically FWD's have less drivetrain loss then RWD's
That's a very interesting torque curve though, anyone know why there's a servere drop after about 4500?
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Location:
South Australia
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Mon, 01 August 2005 13:40
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Possibly the hub dyno We were getting kinda kinky torque curves on the 2WD cars, probably related to open-diffness. The AWD cars did much better (as they generally have LSDs, viscous couplings in the centre, and of course, more wheels to collect torque curve data from etc)
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 3sge dyno results?
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Tue, 02 August 2005 04:01
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nah thats the vtec kicking in bro!!
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