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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sun, 10 July 2005 16:54
 
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Thanks for that pic feral, it gives adz good ideas for my 4AGEz upgrade:P
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sun, 10 July 2005 22:30
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| nick.parker wrote on Sun, 10 July 2005 00:02 |
RE: electric water-pump
Are you REALLY sure you want one? Maybe the benefits don't outweigh the hassle. Still, with a ZE every HP counts...
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After the stuff around getting the standard pump out, I never wanted to go through it again, plus, this way, I can crank up a lot more belt tension without worrying about tearing the nose off the water pump..
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Mon, 11 July 2005 00:32
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what about the thought of making up a custom pulley and using a toothed belt instead of a ribbed belt ?
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Mon, 11 July 2005 01:05
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That would be a nice setup, but, look at the amount of people who aren't willing to pay real money for a crank pulley and insist on buying cheap blue anodised 6061 pulleys, they would never pay around $1k for a toothed belt setup. Plus the fact that you would have to find good condition SC pulleys to modify...
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Mon, 11 July 2005 02:05
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i guess by the time you goto that effort you either go for a *proper* supercharger ie a twin screw over the roots system to you have already gone turbo .
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 28 July 2005 00:02
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Holy shit, have I had an interesting couple of weeks. I managed to move from Adelaide to Darwin but it cost me an engine. 1000km out of Adelaide I put a hole through No2 piston while overtaking a road train at aprox 160km/h. I was also towing a trailer with around 500kg total mass so I guess that it was a bit of an ask for a small car. Anyway, I managed to replace the engine in Marla (middleoffuckingnowhere!!!!) and I now have a spare engine to build. As for the slipping belt situation, I think I will try and get the tensioner to travel higher and hopefully get some more contact area. It may even be possible to add another tensioner and get almost total pulley contact but I am still unsure if the belt is slipping on the supercharger pulley, crank pulley or both. Anyway, I am back to a SC12 with the new engine and it is pretty nice to have consistant boost again. As soon as the cash builds up I will go ahead with the engine build (cams, forgies and injectors). Never a dull moment!
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 28 July 2005 10:18
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have fun in Darwin, lived there for 3 1/2 years. had some great times up there, bought the feral there back in 1995.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 28 July 2005 13:58
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| Irish wrote on Thu, 28 July 2005 09:32 |
Holy shit, have I had an interesting couple of weeks. I managed to move from Adelaide to Darwin but it cost me an engine. 1000km out of Adelaide I put a hole through No2 piston while overtaking a road train at aprox 160km/h. I was also towing a trailer with around 500kg total mass so I guess that it was a bit of an ask for a small car. Anyway, I managed to replace the engine in Marla (middleoffuckingnowhere!!!!) and I now have a spare engine to build. As for the slipping belt situation, I think I will try and get the tensioner to travel higher and hopefully get some more contact area. It may even be possible to add another tensioner and get almost total pulley contact but I am still unsure if the belt is slipping on the supercharger pulley, crank pulley or both. Anyway, I am back to a SC12 with the new engine and it is pretty nice to have consistant boost again. As soon as the cash builds up I will go ahead with the engine build (cams, forgies and injectors). Never a dull moment!
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Haha I heard that story a few days ago from Hubert/Samson... I twigged when you mentioned GTiR in an earlier post. Good luck with the S/C.
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Location:
Bottom of the hill, Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 29 July 2005 10:51
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Is it possible for the crank pulley to be spinning on the crank?
ie crank dowel worn/missing causing the pulley to intermitently slip.
Probably not but another thing to check.
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Mon, 01 August 2005 02:23
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i dont think thats a likely scenario, im still pretty convinced that the belkt is slipping on the crank as my belt glazed pretty fast and gets sorse and worse all the time... havent had any time to spend on the mr2 until the ae71 is going and then i can start to play with stuff
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Tue, 02 August 2005 08:56
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The pulley is not spinning on the shaft. It has to be the belt slipping. I think that the tensioner setup will have to be revised.
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Wed, 03 August 2005 01:19
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im _pretty_ sure the belt is slipping, this one is about 150km old : 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Wed, 03 August 2005 03:43
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I used copious amounts of belt grip and was pretty sure that the belt was still slipping. My belts never looked like that though. One thing I can say is that when I blew the engine I was actually getting full boost and the car felt amazing. I did not feel any drop off at the top like you normally do and the car was pulling very hard. It has convinced me to continue down the supercharger path.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Wed, 03 August 2005 05:58
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that stuffed belt looks like its slipping but im guessing it isnt slipping on the pulley, either crank or SC.. it looks like its wearing from the outside in which would indicate it is slipping or getting friction from the outside of the belt..
the only contact point that should be on the outside of the belt would be the tensioner ? have you checked the bearing in the tensioner ? perhaps that is getting sticky and starting to seize which will casue the belt to gain a huge dose of friction off the tensioner and slow down its rotation a it slips on the crank pulley and hence wont be spinning the sc as fast = boost drop ?
just food for thought.
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Wed, 10 August 2005 12:07
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i took the belt off the other day, or maybe i should say IT SNAPPED.. and it was being eaten from the ribbing to the outside, the tensioner is fine as is
ive had a world of progress with my car... a friend of mine works at a machine shop adn i was belting out ideas about runing the water pump off the front of the crank and letting the s/c have a dedicated contact patch.. so he made me up a 20mm ali disc and i redid the tensioner on the s/c, you now CANNOT get any more contact that this :
pic from above :
the car felt different after doing this, it revved free-er and warmed up a bit faster, as now it is driven at the regular ration of an n/a water pump.
so i took it for a blat, with big expectations, STILL bogged down i was so sad.
the BIG breakthrough came today.. i was standing there looking at the car, just snooping around and i rememebred that my cooler outlet join was a bit too long and always seemed to get sucked in (from vacum pressure) so i looked down to where ive used a silicone bend (truck radiator hose $130 for ONE bend) and i couldnt see it i was shocked. i shoved my hand down there and felt it being sucked inwards and thought "ohh crap this aint good" so i pulled soem crap out and cut a 20mm ring of 2.5" stainless , slipped it into the bend and hose clamped it from the outside. started the car up to test, it still was getting sucked in a bit but nowhere near as much , like it isnt chokign the air supply anymore. checked my safc for readings and the airflow opening % has gone up 0.2%, ODD! greddy boost gauge revealed less vacum pressure (only slightly) and i stood up and listened to the mtoor for a bit, it was running better than it had done before i had gotten to it with all of this.... really weird!
took it for a drive, bit anxious expecting results and it pulled HARD through first, then Second, all the way and i ran outa road ( haha in the suburbs ) so i shut it off.
Just went for a lap of my "tuning circuit" and the car didnt fail me ONCE at all, it held boost strong in all gears all the way to redline ( well except 5th ) so im retty confident that i have found out what was stopping my boosting... i am going to revise my intake setup (maybe just get some more rings in that elbow for now) and it should be GOOD!
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Location:
Kearns Campbelltown Sydney
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Wed, 10 August 2005 13:44
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jjjjjjjjjjjuuuuuuuuuusssssssssttttttttt
ccccccccoooooonnnnnnnnvvvveerrrttttttt
iiiiiiiiitttttt
ttttttttttooooo
TURBO
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 11 August 2005 05:13
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im very keen to see how this pans out.. is there any chance you could grab some more photos of your plumbing setup as im keen to give this one a whirl.. esp if you seem to have found the problem..
Id be interested to see if the same/similar problem was restricting Irish's setup. as he was suffering the exact same problem. iirc he was using a slightly different setup as far as the plumbing is concerned... ?
anyone know how well sc14's react to being overdriven same as the sc12's ? im guessing since they are effectivly the same charger just slightly longer that they should be sweet as long as the intercooling was up to the task. so 125(stock) charger pulley on a sc14 plus a 175mm nevo should fly  id be pretty comfortable in saying you'd need aftermarket managment for that.
adsport how much boost are you making now with the sc14 and stock crank pulley ?
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 11 August 2005 06:10
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would i be right in saying this was the pipe that was collapsing
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 11 August 2005 12:20
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please no trying to hijack this thread, it has been informative for all and i greatly have appreciated everybodys input, bar this.
ive driven 4agte aw11's , and found that the nature of the car makes for a much better performer in all of its guises in supercharged form. the linear response of the superchager and early power delivery are none that should be laughed at.
well theres that, and i also have a AE71 with a built 4agte (bb T28 hanging off the side of it)
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 11 August 2005 12:32
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to answer your questions mate, yes thats the pipe (although i had changed it to silicone)
nick parker (whos jumped on this thread) has a 164mm crank and levin s/c pulley and it makes about 18psi, the drive ratio is the same as overspinning the sc12 but the boost volume is respectively different. ive been in his car it has NO hesitation at all it pulls freaking hard!
mine is making a constant 0.9 bar (13.0 PSI)
i will take some pictures for you on the weekend (working long shifts suck) and post em up, although i have a few bits different than on the page you grabbed that pic from 
i wouldnt mind hearing from Irish and seeing some detailed pics and finding out what materials he has used to determine if he has had the same problem
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 10:47
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adsport : any news on progress ? has fixing up that collapsing pipe found the culprit ?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 10:56
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Hey Ads, great to hear about the win. I am running the same (in theory) hose setup to supply the supercharger. I used truck intercooler hose (same type of hose as radiator but twice the thickness. It would not surprise me if it is being sucked closed though. Since my engine is out at the moment I will take this time to fabricate steel piping to supply the supercharger. I remember thinking that it was funny that Toyota went to all that trouble to make ally pipes when it could have been done by hose. I guess that we now know why. Please keep me informed on how everything goes mate.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 11:30
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hmmm in that case things are looking very promising. given both adsport and irish were having the same problem and seem to have the same flaw in the system things are looking good.. replace that pipe up with a nice metal pipe should be sweet
now just time for aftermarket managment so we can go for sc14/175mm crank pulley
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 12:08
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its the money ticket, boosting happily for the past few days now without fault i LOVE it
oldcorollas: which part?
Irish : now that ive got it going, and made my point i will be pulling it apart. phase 1 was to get it working phase 2 is to make it more efficient. much more to come with my personal progress, good luck to your fault finding!
will be going on the dyno "as is" in a week , will be trying to do some road tuning to the safc beforehand and will post a dyno sheet.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 13:20
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Adz, what exactly are you thinking of doing next? When I am finnished I should hopefully have forgies, cams and the nevo 165 pulley. I am working on a water/air intercooler but after that I think I will be happy. I just want to see how much boost I will get with the s/c working properly.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 14:20
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oh and as for the whole belt slipping thing.. i guess it's something to do with the 50-60hp (?) required to turn the bugger at higher rpm....
i was, and still am looking into twin screws....main reasons..
1.3 internal compression ratio,
doesn't have the nasty roots pulsing (that sounds bad  )
has lower outlet temps.....
and takes HALF the power to turn than an SC12/14.... (about 30hp for 7000rpm and 16psi from memory)
and they are only about $2K
go on.. you know you want to
lysholm 1600... yeah yeah
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 14:43
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Yeah, a nice whipple would be lovely on the side of the engine. I just don't want to spend half my life machining the brackets up to find out that it will never fit in a fwd application. I think that Adz has proven that the sc14 will give the desired results when optimised. I am so impressed with the power delivery of the s/c that I have considered supercharging my GTiR. If it didn't have a good turbo on it already I would probably have gone down that route already. One day....
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 14:47
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Hey Adz, have you loosened the belt off at all? Maybe the problem of belt breakage is due to too much tension. I loved what you did with the tensioner. I was thinking of 2 small tensioners, offset to each other.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Fri, 12 August 2005 16:05
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| Irish wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 00:43 |
Yeah, a nice whipple would be lovely on the side of the engine. I just don't want to spend half my life machining the brackets up to find out that it will never fit in a fwd application. I think that Adz has proven that the sc14 will give the desired results when optimised. I am so impressed with the power delivery of the s/c that I have considered supercharging my GTiR. If it didn't have a good turbo on it already I would probably have gone down that route already. One day....
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think of a lysholm as halfway between a roots SC and a turbo... you don't have quite full boost from idle, but you don't run out of puff by 8000rpm, and you aren't sucking so much power...
think of it as 30-40 FREE hp the SC14 will still heat the air more, suck more power, and still run out of puff sooner,....
aanyway my own little fantasy
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Location:
Victoria
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 13 August 2005 02:54
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 02:05 |
| Irish wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 00:43 |
Yeah, a nice whipple would be lovely on the side of the engine. I just don't want to spend half my life machining the brackets up to find out that it will never fit in a fwd application. I think that Adz has proven that the sc14 will give the desired results when optimised. I am so impressed with the power delivery of the s/c that I have considered supercharging my GTiR. If it didn't have a good turbo on it already I would probably have gone down that route already. One day....
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think of a lysholm as halfway between a roots SC and a turbo... you don't have quite full boost from idle, but you don't run out of puff by 8000rpm, and you aren't sucking so much power...
think of it as 30-40 FREE hp the SC14 will still heat the air more, suck more power, and still run out of puff sooner,....
aanyway my own little fantasy
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But its not free HP, u are paying a big premium for it $2000 as apposed to $300 
They are very nice superchargers from what ive seen though, definatly the way to go if u were chasing good power with a GZE
[Updated on: Sat, 13 August 2005 02:55]
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 13 August 2005 10:45
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yeah id love to go for a twin screw whipple/lysholm but $$$$ i imagine it would make a beautiful 4agze nice low end punch without choking up high. and plenty of boost to boot given they can spin so much quicker then the roots blowers.
adsport: as far as running the water pump off the front belt i love the idea, did you change the pulley on the waterpump to a smaller item ? as the factory front pulley is obviously smaller then the rear pulley so if you use the stock water pump pulley you would be under driving the waterpump which would probaly explain your quicker heat up times ?
whats the stock water pump pulley diamter ? 60-70mm ? working on 70mm for the water pump and (135iirc ?) for the front pulley then the water pump will be spun about 7% slower then stock ? perhaps its worth making up/finding a new smaller pulley to spin it at the right speed.. assuming stock is 70mm you would need around 65 to make it spin at the right speed.
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 13 August 2005 11:34
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im keeping my plans as ideas in my head for the time being but it will hopefully involve complete revision of the intake system, the exhaust will be taken care of by the Cusco extractors i am aquiring.
i suspect that my belt slipping issue might have something to do with first of all turning the s/c unit, but also maybe as it was being choked, trying to turn it with so much intake resistance might be combatting the rotation of the motor..
gearbox has a point, $3000 vs $300.
i have used the stock water pump pulley , which is the same on all 16v 4ag** motors. the water pump now spins at the same speed as the n/a motors do as the front of the crank is the same diameter of the section of the n/a crank pulley that runs the water pump and alternator/aircon where applicable. when i say it wamrs up faster, im not talking like 3 mins and its borderline to overheating , but more like 10-15 (probly about normal) but mine always takes ages to owarm up cos i have a large well placed oil cooler. the gze version actually overspins in relation to the n/a, i think it does add to the drag as mine has had a noticeable improvement in n/a (i use n/a for testing things as the difference seems bigger and you can give it full power more frequently (full throttle)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 13 August 2005 11:58
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| Adsport wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 21:34 |
i suspect that my belt slipping issue might have something to do with first of all turning the s/c unit, but also maybe as it was being choked, trying to turn it with so much intake resistance might be combatting the rotation of the motor..
gearbox has a point, $3000 vs $300.
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very likely.. the power required to turn the SC goes up significantly with pressure ratio, even if the actual amount of air being moved is the same..
here's a compressor map for the lysholm.. just double the power figures
http://www.opconab.com/www/files/lysholm/pdf/perfo rmance%20charts/diagram_lys1600ax.pdf
(sorry, couldn't find the SC14 map...who is it that makes them again??)
i remember reading somewhere the amount of power that can be transmitted given a certain width belt, tension, percentage of pulley it touches (since at each point of contact, you have the same force.. increasing the area of contact linearly increase the force it can transmit thru that pulley), but i forgot where the stock wodth belt was near limits with the SC12 and the SC14 miht just be drawing a little too much power (like 60hp instead of 50?)
you ean from intake tract resistance? or from the motor not ingesting the air? or both?
meh, it's only money.. what else are you going to do with it
buy a laggy turbo for the same cost?
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 13 August 2005 12:07
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i mean intake tract resistance from my silicone bend being sucked in and choking the air supply before the supercharger.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 18 August 2005 06:36
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adsport how has the charger been going now that you have fixed this piping ? still working sweet? i ask as im about to go out and buy one 
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Thu, 18 August 2005 09:45
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its going flawlessly mate i actually got scared the other day in the wet (as most days in the wet) giving it stick in a straight line the back end slipped out in second and when i took the throttle off it corected but kept going and did almost a full rotation, lucky i wasnt in traffic!
goes on dyno sat morning, will post the graph for y'all
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 20 August 2005 13:20
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Great to see that the problem is finally sorted Adz. I feel like a bit of a goose now because I didn't even give that side of the circuit a second thought even though I thought is was a flow dynamic problem. I will not be putting my sc14 setup to the test until I have rebuilt the engine. Can you give me an idea of what the engine is doing now (power delivery characteristics etc.)as I am trying to suit a camshaft that will compliment the package. I am after top end rather than bottom so do you think a peaky cam will be drivable?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sat, 20 August 2005 13:21
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Adz, what are your a/f ratios like at full boost and peak load? Any plans to increase rail pressure or fuel injector size?
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Location:
Perth WA
Registered:
December 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sun, 21 August 2005 04:53
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Irish: i would go with 264x8.1mm cams they are very good and dont comprimise idle or driveability while giving great gains.
had the car on the dyno yesterday so i have some readings to show with you all.
AFR is a bit lean at the bottom end of WOT so i have adjusted it slightly since but it is looking very good so far. the boost map is very goood also.
to give you some kind of idea of an RPM gauge,
75kph=2000rpm
100=3000rpm
120=4000rpm
145=5000rpm
165=6000rpm
190=7000rpm
200=7500rpm
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Boost issues with 4AGZE
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Sun, 21 August 2005 10:23
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very nice. very good linear power progression.
you dont happen to have the torque numbers ?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
July 2002
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