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Location:
Burnie, Tasmania
Registered:
July 2005
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Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 02:45
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Just researching at this point but who knows what is involved to convert to a dry sump setup and how much of a performance benefit does it have.
My plans are 1j or 2j into an MA61. I believe there are various different sump configurations on these engines and that I need a front sump donor. Will a dry sump setup mean I can buy any sump configuration, dry sump it and not worry about it having to clear the cross member.
The idea is more for donor choices, but performance is a factor aswell as this car will see track days.
Cheers, Tim
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 02:55
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You do know a drysump setup will cost a couple of thousand $$$?
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Location:
Burnie, Tasmania
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 03:03
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| CrUZsida wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 12:55 |
You do know a drysump setup will cost a couple of thousand $$$?
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Ahhhhh well, the answer to that question is no I didn't, but thats why Im asking.
But why is it so expensive ?
What actually needs to be done, my thoughts were a remote resevoir, filter and pump aswell as the mods for the sump itself, but I don't know what thoses mods are.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 03:09
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I haven't looked into it deeply as I can't see myself ever doing it, but you need a custom sump, various pickup point, couple of pumps, brackets, custom pulley setup, etc etc.
Have a look at the drysump on here, and tell me what you think its worth.
http://www.dysfunction.ws/galleryapp/hasselgren/jg tc0974
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 03:22
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If you haven't done one before then it's not easy to get it right the first time.
You can do it reasonably cheaply, but it's still going to be over $1,000 odd.
Best go visit a few race teams to see what has to be done and perhaps convince one of their fabricators to do the sump for you.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 04:06
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Converting to dry sump is a Good Thing if you're building a dedicated circuit racer. If you're just looking for a way to avoid buying a front sump engine, this is not the solution for you!
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 04:39
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If you are looking for a pump you can get some ex-nascar/stock car ones on US ebay for quite good prices.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 05:29
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price, maybe $1-2000...
parasitic loss of kw turning the dry sump pump?
plus extra weight of pumps, tanks, lines etc, as well as extra oil (what? 8-10L??)
just a few things to consider
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 09:22
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 15:29 |
price, maybe $1-2000...
parasitic loss of kw turning the dry sump pump?
plus extra weight of pumps, tanks, lines etc, as well as extra oil (what? 8-10L??)
just a few things to consider
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The coolness factor will out weigh all of the above 
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 09:26
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very little performace gains!more to keep race engines alive for longer!
suppose its time to let another secret out! get a morosso oil accumulator!
mick
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Location:
Burnie, Tasmania
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 09:59
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So it seems its not the best idea price wise to do this unless the car is a dedicated race car. Im still interested though if not to actually use on the MA61, then to atleast know the workings of them.
Ive found a site that seems to explain it a little
http://auto.howstuffworks.com/question331.htm
Thanks guys 
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 10:02
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lol ask away what do you want to know about dry sumping?
mick
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 12:42
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The idea is simple, the bits and pieces involved are not...
The pumps cost a fair bit (e.g. four stage pump will always be $1000+), even if you can make the oil container and sump yourself, you'll still be up for the oil cooler, belt drive gear, and the killer of them all, the oil lines (braided hose and speedflow fittings ain't cheap...)
Some folks have done homemade jobs by joining together old Holden oil pumps etc. But if you're just looking for a way to get a JZ into your street driven MA61, it'd be better value to find a front sump engine. They do exist, you just have to do a bit of ringing around when you want one...
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 17:26
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 12 August 2005 15:29 |
plus extra weight of pumps, tanks, lines etc, as well as extra oil (what? 8-10L??)
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A good dry sump system will use around half the oil of a standard wet sump.
We often run about 2.5 - 3.0 litres in total in the race car.
If you build the system properly, you'll pick up a bit of power - even though you're driving the extra pump - because of the reduction in windage from the crank, and the lower retention of oil by the crank.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Fri, 12 August 2005 22:31
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What pumps do you use Bill?
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 07:10
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| Cool1 wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 08:31 |
What pumps do you use Bill?
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We use the existing pressure pump and make our own scavenge pumps. The current one uses two Holden 308 (sorry!) gear pump gears on a single shaft.
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Location:
Darwin, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 07:34
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Tell me more about these 308 oil pumps....
Are they hard to adapt to a standalone config?
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 07:49
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| Salad Fingers wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 17:34 |
Tell me more about these 308 oil pumps....
Are they hard to adapt to a standalone config?
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Yep. It takes a lot of fabricating and milling.
And they still leak. 
One thing with them is that they pump quite a high volume and so we have to spin them relatively slowly to the engine, or they pump too much and power is wasted.
Here it is ->
The latest pump we made uses two sets of oil pump gears from a 4AGE, and it bolts right onto the front of the engine & uses a small shaft to drive it.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 08:11
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bill why not just use a two stage pump?a avaid 3 stage is only $1200. for your sprinter get a accumulator bill, they work a treat and you can use them to pre prime. ill get you one if you want only cost a couple of hundred. hows the bellhouses going bill?
mick
p.s ill right a bit on dry sumping in the morning as its kiwi wipping time,or we will get wipped.
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 09:14
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Moroso 4 stage $600- ATM on ebay. An SCR and Barnes for $400- and $225- respectively, thats US$, plus lines, tank, cooler, pan.
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 11:47
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| kingmick wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 18:11 |
bill why not just use a two stage pump?a avaid 3 stage is only $1200. for your sprinter get a accumulator bill, they work a treat and you can use them to pre prime. ill get you one if you want only cost a couple of hundred. hows the bellhouses going bill?
mick
p.s ill right a bit on dry sumping in the morning as its kiwi wipping time,or we will get wipped.
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We only need a single-stage scavenge on the Suzuki.
We build the pumps for under $200.
Why would I need an accumlator on the Sprinter? It's all stock, with the 3SGE in it.
The bell housings should be done by around the end of the month but I'm not sure when I can get them back to Aus, sorry.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 13:44
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be very careful with a secound hand dry sump pump. most people sell them after a blow up,so make sure you check inside them for damage.
bill but the time that goes into building them must be well over the $200 by the look of the setup?.
the accumulator stops any surge and great for prime,your not lap dashing the sprinter?.
mick
p.s bloody kiwi's, well done.
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 14:14
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| kingmick wrote on Sat, 13 August 2005 23:44 |
be very careful with a secound hand dry sump pump. most people sell them after a blow up,so make sure you check inside them for damage.
bill but the time that goes into building them must be well over the $200 by the look of the setup?.
the accumulator stops any surge and great for prime,your not lap dashing the sprinter?.
mick
p.s bloody kiwi's, well done.
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Ah, but our time is free.
No, the Sprinter is not being used in competition any more. Well, maybe the odd run but if I want to do that I've got much faster cars to run.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sat, 13 August 2005 14:18
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want to laugh!our sport sedan record at eastern is now 600th of a second of the supercarts record!not bad, i think.
mick
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Dry sump conversion
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Sun, 14 August 2005 02:09
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ok! we only use 4 stage pumps on V8's that are making 650hp-720hp.there is no point using a 4 stage on most engines at all.
a proper dry sump setup on a race car will cost you about $5000-$8000.a good tank is about the $800 mark with baffles and side entry to spin the oil.good filters are around the $300 mark,pump will be from $1200-$2500,braided lines and fittings around the $1200-$2000 depending on the setup.then depending on engine you need to mesh the gallerys and set it up internally for dry sumping.a pan will cost between $400-$1200.then there is the catch can and the pulley setup to drive the pump.
it can also be done for very cheap if you use rubber hose,second hand pump etc etc this could be done for $1500 if you shop around for the bits and peices.but as there is accumulators that work very well on the track and can be bought for under $500 it comes done to how much do you want to spend.
if my scanner was working i could show you hundreds of pics of diffrent dry sump systems i have made for circuit cars{is there a company you can give pics to and they put them all on disc?}.
mick
p.s god i hate hangovers
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