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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 00:00
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I'm really interested in knowing the differences in engines.
I no that the Group A 4ageu produced 150-200 hp
The formula Atlantic produces 240 hp
The bore and stroke are the same at 81-77. The cylinders are both at 20deg.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 00:28
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thanks, know what about the Atlantic built by the american's.
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Location:
melb
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 02:59
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That thing still used carb's 
MATT.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 03:01
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| FASTFOO wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 12:59 |
That thing still used carb's
MATT.
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there is nothing wrong with a good set of carbs. 
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Location:
melb
Registered:
February 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 03:11
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 OK.
MATT.
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Location:
Melb
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 03:40
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carbs, i'm still trying to talk somebody out of it! Crazy Escort drivers
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 03:45
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| gillie wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 13:40 |
carbs, i'm still trying to talk somebody out of it! Crazy Escort drivers
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Seriously grow up there is nothing wrong with a good set of carbs, if they are in good condition they don't need tuning to often and offer damn good response. Maybe you'd like to have a go at some of japan's best drifters who still use carbs as well because they offer better response hmmmm.
EFI is better is many ways but just cos it uses carbies i wouldn't be knocking it and there ain't anything wrong with 200hp out of a 1.6L engine.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 04:03
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Carbs are fine for top end power.. It's more the idle/midrange that EFI would be superior..
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 04:12
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The FA engines went to fuel injection many years ago.
The Group A engines have to use a standard inlet manifold.
They're two almost completely different engines, little in common apart from some base components.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 04:24
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I see, the new 2.3 cosworth Atlantic engine is a EFI.
Formula Atlantic is the ultimate, all the trd catalog parts where for the N2 groupA.
I found out that the Atlantic was build by a company called swift.
Also the engine based on ID is actually a Group A and not an Atlantic spec.
I would like to see what specs where used for Formula Atlantic.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:42
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 13:45 |
Maybe you'd like to have a go at some of japan's best drifters who still use carbs as well because they offer better response hmmmm.
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actually all the 4age's i saw in the d1 when i was there at sugo circuit use bigport 4age's with big quad throttles with efi and msd ignition... No carby's there and id say they were some of japans best drifters
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:44
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There is still a coupele of guys that have carbies plus they sound better too 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:46
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| Dorio86 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 14:24 |
I see, the new 2.3 cosworth Atlantic engine is a EFI.
Formula Atlantic is the ultimate, all the trd catalog parts where for the N2 groupA.
I found out that the Atlantic was build by a company called swift.
Also the engine based on ID is actually a Group A and not an Atlantic spec.
I would like to see what specs where used for Formula Atlantic.
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how about you email hasselgren then....
and why do you even want to know? it's not like you are abotu to build one
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:49
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 15:44 |
There is still a coupele of guys that have carbies plus they sound better too
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which ones????
names???
The n/a ae86's dont tend to do too well in the d1 (sugo atleast) with 200hp its a bit of a challenge not to get passed by some1 with 500 + hp. The only 2 that qualified for the top 16 were knocked out quickly and were passed easily
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:50
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 15:46 |
how about you email hasselgren then....
and why do you even want to know? it's not like you are abotu to build one
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cmon oldcorollas hes just interested there is no harm in that im sure youve been interested to know things from time to time give him a break
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 05:58
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 13:44 |
There is still a coupele of guys that have carbies plus they sound better too
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They don't really sound better than ITB's... 
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 06:07
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 15:46 |
| Dorio86 wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 14:24 |
I see, the new 2.3 cosworth Atlantic engine is a EFI.
Formula Atlantic is the ultimate, all the trd catalog parts where for the N2 groupA.
I found out that the Atlantic was build by a company called swift.
Also the engine based on ID is actually a Group A and not an Atlantic spec.
I would like to see what specs where used for Formula Atlantic.
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how about you email hasselgren then....
and why do you even want to know? it's not like you are abotu to build one
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The thing is I'm amazed how such small engines can produce these figures.
But when I was asking about the specs, people where showing me Group A engine specs.
Thats why I ask what were the differences.
Any other words you want to put in my mouth?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 06:49
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i assume you've read the .zip file on Bills page about formula atlantic engines??
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 07:21
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 16:49 |
i assume you've read the .zip file on Bills page about formula atlantic engines??
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To make it easy -> http://www.billzilla.org/formulaatlantic.zip
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 08:28
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a formula atlantic engine is crap in a street driven car{power band) and you need to refresh to often!plus im yet to meet someone one here that can afford to throw an atlantic motor in a street car for the sake of it.i can do it,so can a few others because we can build them,but there is no real point.you can get the same power out of a 7age atmo at 1/4 of the price.i have the 7age atmos at around the 220hp{or maybe a bit more,and thats at 7500rpm} at the wheels now and very reliable.but if you do a turbo one you can do the same HP with ease.
mick
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 08:32
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i belive a guy in the us put one into his sprinter
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 08:45
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| 4agte wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 18:32 |
i belive a guy in the us put one into his sprinter
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yes but as the series is there and there are 200 million people,im not surprised.i also bet it was a used one.
mick
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Location:
Perth, WA
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 13:58
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| Quote: |
i belive a guy in the us put one into his sprinter
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...if you're talking about Kevin Chen's Trueno coupe, then the guy works for Hasselgren - which is why he can put a $50,000 engine in a $5000 car.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 14:37
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| optionUP wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 23:58 |
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i belive a guy in the us put one into his sprinter
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...if you're talking about Kevin Chen's Trueno coupe, then the guy works for Hasselgren - which is why he can put a $50,000 engine in a $5000 car.
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and all the N1 dorfito kiddies worldwide will go nuts and talk about it for years in threads like these..
"didja here about the guy who put a formula atlantic motor in a spoontah??" " yeahh, thats like.. sooo cooool"
anyway it's nice to dream, but it would suck to drive... i bet even the atlantic cars suck to drive if it falls off cam 
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Fri, 16 September 2005 15:11
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Heh, they dont really ever fall off cam, because they idle so high that they are almost on cam all the time. The Hasselgren engine which i had the pleasure of looking at idled at about 4000rpm give or take a couple of hundred, and apparently came on power at about 6000rpm for the first kick in the guts, and then really livened up at about 9000rpm. GG usable power....
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 01:07
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Thanks oldcorollas for the find. I have found allot of articles of the atlantic engine, what shocks me is the amount of regular tuning and rebuilding these engines need. They are tuned for max hp and minimum life.
So surprise surprise I'm rebuilding a 4ageu with TODA specs,
In 280 Ex 288 with inner shim, forged pistons and injection kit and other stuff.
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Location:
London
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 01:18
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| Dorio86 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 02:07 |
Thanks oldcorollas for the find. I have found allot of articles of the atlantic engine, what shocks me is the amount of regular tuning and rebuilding these engines need. They are tuned for max hp and minimum life.
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You gotta remember that a racing engine is only designed to go race distance.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 01:42
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 00:37 |
| optionUP wrote on Fri, 16 September 2005 23:58 |
| Quote: |
i belive a guy in the us put one into his sprinter
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...if you're talking about Kevin Chen's Trueno coupe, then the guy works for Hasselgren - which is why he can put a $50,000 engine in a $5000 car.
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and all the N1 dorfito kiddies worldwide will go nuts and talk about it for years in threads like these..
"didja here about the guy who put a formula atlantic motor in a spoontah??" " yeahh, thats like.. sooo cooool"
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i dont see your point
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 05:50
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| 4agte wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 11:42 |
| Quote: |
and all the N1 dorfito kiddies worldwide will go nuts and talk about it for years in threads like these..
"didja here about the guy who put a formula atlantic motor in a spoontah??" " yeahh, thats like.. sooo cooool"
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i dont see your point
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the point is that the guy made himself famous/infamous (and the company name moreso) by putting one of the old work engines in a sprinter and taking some vids of it trying to drift.
regardles of whether you are into sprinters or not, if you are involved in the toyota "scene" you will most probably have heard of this one car... and the wannabe drifters will hold that idea as the pinnacle of fully sick dorifto coolness, regardless of the impracticality of:
| Takai wrote |
Heh, they dont really ever fall off cam, because they idle so high that they are almost on cam all the time. The Hasselgren engine which i had the pleasure of looking at idled at about 4000rpm give or take a couple of hundred, and apparently came on power at about 6000rpm for the first kick in the guts, and then really livened up at about 9000rpm. GG usable power....
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ahh, 280/288 is relatively mild
i think Takai's engine will be/is nuts
[Updated on: Sat, 17 September 2005 05:51]
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:13
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[quote title=oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 15:50]| 4agte wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 11:42 |
ahh, 280/288 is relatively mild
i think Takai's engine will be/is nuts
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I'll be happy with 160 to 200 ps. Mild is what I'm looking for.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:17
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288 is not mild.
256 is mild.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:28
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what about some 304's
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 06:34
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any engine where cams come on above 5000rpm... is not mild..
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:27
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 16:28 |
what about some 304's
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I dont think I'll pass emissions tests with those cams
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:30
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It'll pass
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:43
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Mine passed. Sure it was seriously down on power, but it passed emissions.
However, that Hasselgren replica wasnt my engine, i wish it was, but sadly...
Mine runs 308/9.1mm and thinking about pushing it up to around 13.4:1CR static.
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 07:46
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| takai wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 17:43 |
Mine passed. Sure it was seriously down on power, but it passed emissions.
However, that Hasselgren replica wasnt my engine, i wish it was, but sadly...
Mine runs 308/9.1mm and thinking about pushing it up to around 13.4:1CR static.
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Your nuts if you drive this thing on the road.
May I ask whats your rev range and torque band?
Also what rods are you using?
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 11:56
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I found the trd ae86 N1 running the Group A 4ageu
This is the ae86 chassis designer.
And that's the Group A engine.
And these are the group A specs
Thanks for all the info y'all
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Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 15:01
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 17 September 2005 16:17 |
288 is not mild.
256 is mild.
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Better qualify that. In my 2T-G (1588C out to 1700CC 8 valve DOHC) 288/288 camshafts (250/250 @ .050") were quite streetable.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 15:37
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The old school group A engines used stock intake and exhaust manifolds, 12:1 comp (11.5 rally), made 195ps/8800rpm, 17.8 kg/m 7600, 312/304 cams, and a remapped standard ECU. This was FISA homogloated on Feb 1, 88. Not nearly as wild as the FA engines!
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 15:48
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I remember the cams had to be the same grind as the homologated cams but lift was free, the heads had to stay shim over as per the homologated head.
Jeez!! they're old school these days, it doesn't seem that long ago! 
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 15:58
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In the group A book I've got here it's got: 'PN 10303-SP001 PAD, valve adjusting', and a pic of it under the bucket...
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 16:36
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Well there you go perhaps I'm thinking of an earlier homologation, was the '88 homol done under the 500 units homol?
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Differences between the Group A and Formula Atlantic engines
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Sat, 17 September 2005 23:24
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Nah, that difference was for different classes. Group A was as mr shin suggested, but the Australian GrpA was subtly different, and had to be shim over.
There were a few other ideosyncracies.
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