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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 03:26
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With issues surrounding our non-renewable fossil fuels being pushed into the spotlight with our recent rises in petrol prices, I've heard more talk about biodiesel as a replacement fuel.
Biodiesel is:
o Produced from waste oils (animal fats and vegetable oils used in cooking) as well as grown from canola and similar plants used to make vegetable oils
o Renewable
o Produced locally
oLess polution (50% less 'smog', 100% less sulfur)
o Compatible with current diesel engines (some rubber components of the fuel line may need to be changed)
For it to be a worthwhile avenue, it would have to be able to be produced cheaply, on a large scale, and be 'cost' (fuel, time, environmental impact, transport, production...) effective for long term sustainibility. That is, the output being greater than its 'inputs'. I mean, if it's not economical to produce, we might as well just use the fossil fuel we have left.
Biodiesel is currently availible in Germany where you can buy pure biodiesel from the pump. There are other examples around the world of diesel/buidiesel blend fuels currently in use. Also, biodiesel has a higher lubricity than low sulfur versions of diesel fuels, which are becoming more common due to increasing environmental pressure. In France, for example, the low sulfur diesel fuel has a 5% blend of biodiesel, to protect the engine.
Looking at the new car market, I've been concidering a turbo diesel VW Golf. It gets great economy on diesel fuel, plus is compatible with biodiesel for the future. If fossil fuel prices all go to hell (which is simply a matter of time), the ability to be able to run on biodiesel would be very attractive.
What do other people think?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 03:29
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i think (on the surface) it's a bloody good idea... although it doesn't help emissions etc, reducing the rate of consumption of limited resources can only be a good thing...
esp since there are sooo many trucks that use absolute shiteloads of diesel....
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 05:01
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The Biodiesel is an excellent idea as it does actually has the potential to eliminate emissions. As the CO2 released when the fuel is combusted is from plants it is merely re-cycling CO2 already present in the atmosphere-as oposed to releasing CO2 from ancient geologically locked up sources.
Currently in this country the Biodiesel process is only 10% off being carbon neutral, and there are plans afoot to address the deficit by planting trees. (a targeted number of trees to specifically account for the deficit)
Once that happens, you can drive a diesel vehicle without increasing CO2 levels in the atmosphere AT ALL!
I have one of the 2.0L Golf TDIs and it kicks ass. 4.2L/100km on a run.........
Sean
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Location:
Newcastle, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 07:51
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lets keep the weirdos out of this and focus on topic 
the only prob is that we are gonna have to start eatign a heck of a lot more hot chips!!!
what about generating vegetable oils specifically for fuel? what sort of cost are we looking at for sayy, 200L drum..
heh heh, not all of europe is backwards  mmm turbo diesel.. maybe not the most fun car around, but bloody efficent
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2004
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 08:11
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In my mind, most biodiesel fuel would come from crops specifically grown.
The growth of the plants themselves would help take the carbon dioxide out of the air, they're also availible in all seasons. Another advantage to our economy is that canola plants could be a lucrative crop for struggling farmers who can't compete with cheap overseas import produce.
I haven't started researching what car makers think of the fuel, but I have heard that one of the US manufacturers stated that using biodiesel fuel in their diesel engines would not void the warantee. I also know that some modern diesel cars don't need any upgrades to the fueling system to run biodiesel.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 08:15
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i had thought that there were buses trialing it in Aus also? or maybe council trucks?
i guess i was asking.. if crops are grown specifically for biodiesel, how much will it end up costing (before the government puts their 50% excise on it )
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Location:
Binningup WA
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 08:38
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The story lost all credit by me once I got 3/4 the way down the page.
"Most internal combustion engines operate at about 35 per cent efficiency. This means that only 35 per cent of the fuel is fully burned. The rest either turns to carbon corroding the engine or goes out the exhaust pipe as greenhouse gases.
The H2N-Gen increases burn efficiency to at least 97 per cent, Williams said. This saves fuel and greatly reduces emissions"
This is infact bullshit. An IC piston engine may only be 35% efficent but that's the fault of the mechanical design. Most of the fuel IS burnt but unfortunately 65% of the released energy gets wasted by heat and friction losses. They then come out and say that Hydrogen increase the combustion percentage to 97% where as in fact regular petrol is around that number anyway. That's why cars have O2 sensors. Even on Hydrogen, the piston engine will still be only 35% or so efficent. AFAIK, modern petrol engines are pushing the 50% barrier these days.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Location:
Newcastle, NSW
Registered:
May 2004
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 08:55
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| buck naked wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 18:11 |
In my mind, most biodiesel fuel would come from crops specifically grown.
The growth of the plants themselves would help take the carbon dioxide out of the air, they're also availible in all seasons. Another advantage to our economy is that canola plants could be a lucrative crop for struggling farmers who can't compete with cheap overseas import produce.
I haven't started researching what car makers think of the fuel, but I have heard that one of the US manufacturers stated that using biodiesel fuel in their diesel engines would not void the warantee. I also know that some modern diesel cars don't need any upgrades to the fueling system to run biodiesel.
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for crops to be grown specifically for it, can you imagine the ammount of farmable land required to produce enough bio deisels to replace the millions of barrels of oil per DAY the world is using? i think one of the only things more scarce than our oil supplys is our usable land.
have a read of this..and i mean all of it
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
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Location:
Binningup WA
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 09:14
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| -=DV=- wrote on Mon, 19 September 2005 16:55 |
for crops to be grown specifically for it, can you imagine the ammount of farmable land required to produce enough bio deisels to replace the millions of barrels of oil per DAY the world is using? i think one of the only things more scarce than our oil supplys is our usable land.
have a read of this..and i mean all of it
http://www.lifeaftertheoilcrash.net/
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That's always been my concern when someone mentions biodeisel. The land needed would be crazy. As an example, I work at a minesite and we use over 100K litres of diesel per day, every day. There are dozens and dozens of mines here is WA using diesel powered heavy machinery. I wonder what the total usage per days is alone. 10ML+ per DAY? Then add domestic and commercial usage on top of that.
You only have to look at the size of our wheatbelt farming area here in WA and that wouldn't produces a poofteeth of the tonnage needed to produce biodiesel ultimateley.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 09:39
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funny this has come up!the oldies have just spent the last year getting ready to build a processing plant.as we can grow the rape seed etc. i have a full filing cabernet of info on it from around the world!you can make you own in small batches very easy.look up boi on the net the is a huge amount of info.
mick
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 10:29
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Yes-agreed. It certainly isn't a viable source for powering everything due to the required land area. There are far too many people starving already, and taking up farmable land to combat the greenhouse effect is just as bad at the rate at which the greenhouse effect is destroying farmable land.
The actual amount of oil available is increasing as technology to access it improves, but it is the burning of the fuel, not the available amount that that poses the problem.
Due to the recently discovered 'Global Dimming' effect, the Greenhouse effect is actually being seriously masked, with estimates of irriversible damage occurring in 50 years now being shortened to only 25-30.
The short term answer to head off the problem in time is nuclear (fission) power, followed by nuclear (fusion) power in the long term. A change to renewable sources in that timeframe is fanciful due to the lack of technology.(although it would be preferable if it wasn't)
If we continue to burn fossil fuel we'll all be in serious trouble well withinthe lifetime of most people on these boards........
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 11:14
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the nice thing about biodiesel is that it works quite well in diesel/biodiesel blends.
say a 85/15 blend of diesel/bio. this is doable as far as production quantities. and it in turn reduces the diesel usage by 15%
not saying it is the be all and end all solution but certainly part of it.
almost a more valuable solution i see is the introduction of more hybrid cars. dont worry about insights/prius's as they do what 4L/100km over a corolla of similar size doing what 8L/100 so yeah its a nice improvment but not where there are huge gains to be made. i see these cars as somewhat of a political stunt to show that "we can make these things that run on an oily rag"
more valuable i see is commodore sized cars in hyrbid form. drop the 4L engine that uses 15L/100 around town and go for a 2-2.5L engine that is able to do 7-8L/100km
especially in aust and the US these size cars are incredibly popular and the reduction in fuel usage potential is huge.
i believe toyota are already working on this with the plan to release the GS300 with a hybrid motor. this style of car i see being more useful then the somewhat novelty value of the prius cars.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 11:19
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they already have harier and estima hybrids available.. can't remember if there is a Kluger around or not...
the hybrids benefit most when you are in the city.. lots of regen braking.. on the highway (or big long roads in Aus) there may not be as much benefit...
now a turbo diesl hybrid ...
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Mon, 19 September 2005 11:36
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yes they are in japan.. but where else 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
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Location:
Kilsyth, Melbourne
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Tue, 20 September 2005 02:14
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Alot of farmers are already using this for their tractors and farm machinery. also to the people who think diesels aren't fun i have seen turbo diesel patrols pulling wheelstands on the tar. they can get about 150kw atw out of the standard diesel engines and they sound awesome aswell
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Location:
Melbourne, Australia
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Biodiesel Fuels
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Tue, 20 September 2005 05:37
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In Melbourne Ventura (a metropolitain bus operator) has buses running on ethanol refined from cane sugar apparently.
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