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CLG
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December 2002
4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Mon, 06 December 2004 13:23 Go to next message
I've searched high and low for the thread I read recently highlighting the differences between early and late silvertop 20V motors, but cannot find it? Hence forth, this thread has been created to ask yet again, the differences and the reasons for the differences, of the throttle actuators - the early type having two actuators, and the late type having only one? What purpose does either serve to advantage or disadvantage?

Are there any other differences I should also be made aware of, and particularly aside form the extra actuator, are the throttle bodies identical? I plan to use two sets of throttle bodies for a 1UZFE Inlet Manifold, so would like to confirm they are the same? At the moment, as per the photos, I have one set of early type, and one set of late type.

On another tangent, are the ECU units and associated hardware identical for both early and late model, or are they unique to each other, and not interchangable?


Early model 4AGE 20V motor with twin actuators:

http://members.westnet.com.au/mutilate/Clint/20v_02.JPG

Late model 4AGE 20V motor with single actuator:

http://members.westnet.com.au/mutilate/Clint/20v_01.JPG

[Updated on: Mon, 06 December 2004 16:27]

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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 11:11 Go to previous messageGo to next message
G,Day CLG
With the "silvertop" cylinder heads that I have encountered the differences I have noticed, & can remember ,
are that the inlet ports were a different size & shape. The inlet manifold was different. I think I remember a slight difference in exhaust ports also. The T.Bs. were the same. I wouldn't mind betting that the bloke who designed the two actuator throttle linkage [absolutley superb as it is] got his arse kicked when the next bloke asked" why do you need two of them?" Probably had to throw himself on his ceremonial sword for costing the company so much money.
Cheers
Merv. McCallum.
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jkvsnn
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 12:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I was of the understanding that the single actuator motors were originally bolted to auto trannys as it left room for the "kickdown cable" to be attached?

Julian.
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Vance
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 14:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
jkvsnn i was actually of the same understanding.
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CLG
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 17:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Nope, these are both manual motors.
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 23:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the single type was fitted to autos from the begining of the model run and to all 20vs after the face lift, so early manuals have the twin design, and late ones the single

the single type has a better port shape which is supposed to flow better
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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 23:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
JKVSNN & Vance
Think you have been given incorrect info there fella's. I have just had a look at the twin quadrant set up that came from an auto. engine & there is no extra provision for a kickdown cable. When I first saw this setup I pondered for ages why it was done this way & finally deceided it was an engineering overkill. Hence my previous reply. I am very willing to listen to any sensible theories on this though. Incidentally this throttle quadrant setup is probably the best I've ever seen in all my years experience. Absolutely superb in my opinion.
Merv. McCallum.
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 08 December 2004 23:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
all autos left the factory with the single actuator type throttle bodies, iv checked this on the epc
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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 00:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr.Revhead
Sorry, but that is incorrect in at least one case as I have an auto. engine sourced from the jap wreckers that came with twin quadrants as o.e. I doubt that it would be the ONLY one in the world that escaped the factory. Don't you? It doesn't really matter where you have read it as I am only passing on what I have FOUND & SEEN in the REAL WORLD in person.
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Merv. McCallum.
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 00:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
can you guarantee that it was NEVER changed? was it still attached to the enigne? and how can you tell if its never been changed?

iv looked through the epc and compared all ae101 variants, levin, trueno, ceres, marino and corolla gxgt, sedan and wagons.
all auto models are listed as having the single version
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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 03:21 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr. Revhead
NO. I can't guarantee anything any more than you can. YES.It was still attached to the engine. I really can't tell if it's never been changed, but I must say that after 40 odd years motor engineering experience you have a pretty good idea if something has been removed before or not. THIS HADN'T.
Cheers
Merv.McCallum.
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 03:24 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ok, but as i work with the epc every day, and have never come across a mistake in it like there must be if you what you say is true, so i still stand by my facts.

[Updated on: Thu, 09 December 2004 03:27]

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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 03:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
did you happen to get the model or trans code from the donor vehicle?
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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 03:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr.Revhead
You can stand anywhere you like. I was working with a real engine, in real life, in real time. Not looking at a picture in cyberspace & I stated here what I found. I have no model or trans. code as there was no trans. or donor vehicle. It was an engine.
Cheers
Merv. McCallum.
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 08:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maybe i should mention i work for toyota... as such i have acsses to the latest OFFICIAL epc (not some hacked russian job)
which i use every day, so i know how to use it and check for such things.

you have no way of knowing what history that engine had. i would trust toyotas OFFICIAL catalouge more than one engine found in a wreckers. show me a car with the twin set up in its original chassis with the codes to prove it then ill beleive it.

what u say is the ONLY thing that i have ever come across that suggests autos had the twin set up.
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TA-022
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 11:47 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Confused /me leaves the room to let these two kiss and make up.

Razz
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emmac
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr. Revhead
I'm glad that you have a job you can perform.
Obviously I have no history of the engine.
Obviously I can't show you a car to prove it.
Obviously if this is the only reference you've come across about an auto. with twin quadrants then you have LEARNED SOMETHING that you DID NOT KNOW.
Cheers
Merv.McCallum.
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AE86slut
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 11:58 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ANYWAY Rolling Eyes

I am under the impression that the late model ST's can be identified with a 'K' in the engine number - e.g. 4AK.....

Seeing as you guys are 73h king5 0f 73h 5ilv3r70p, is this correct?
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b1gb3n
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 15:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
maybe NZ models are a little diferent frm japan ones?
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Thu, 09 December 2004 19:02 Go to previous messageGo to next message
all silvertop 20vs are jdm.

k in the engine code? like 4akge? um no.

autos didnt come with the twin type from the factory, that is fact.
you are trying to argue your point on ONE engine ONE person has seen which goes against ALL other evidence.... which is likely to be correct? Rolling Eyes
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Vance
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October 2004
Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Fri, 10 December 2004 17:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
well i think i saw somewhere on the web that the manifold is actually different on the early and late model as Mr revhead said earlier but the throttle linkage thing is blurry,i will have to do some physical research here locally in my country.
thanks for the info guys and keep it sane
Vance
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Fri, 10 December 2004 19:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yeah, iv never looked to see where the kickdown cable hooks to on an auto, my cuz has one so ill have a look at his, see if i can get some pics even.

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CLG
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 12 December 2004 14:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Yep, thanks guys, ..., I think?! Everyone take a chill pill and relax - at the end of the day, all I'm really after is the infomation for which I asked the questions in the original post, and while I appreciate the passion with which both of you have supported your statements - I feel it is somewhat wasted attacking each other's viewpoint?!

So basically, in summary, what are the two types' advantages and disadvantages, and are they basically interchangable?
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Anthony Kellam
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July 2002
Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 12 December 2004 16:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message

I thought I saw in another version of this thread that there were actually three different inlet variants on the silvertops (not in relation to throttle linkage, just in port design).

Someone actually managed to get three different insulator/gaskets.

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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 12 December 2004 19:15 Go to previous messageGo to next message
3 different gaskets? thats odd... all the gaskets are the same from toyota. there are changes from the s/t to the b/t.....

the single type has a slightly better flow so if you find one thats the best, but not enough to warrant a higher price though
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AE86slut
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Tue, 14 December 2004 02:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Mr Revhead wrote on Fri, 10 December 2004 06:02

k in the engine code? like 4akge? um no.



I didn't say "code" I said "number"...... Like, my engine number has 4AK as the prefix to the number.

And yeah, like someone else said, chilllll......
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Tue, 14 December 2004 02:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ok engine number, no idea about that, the only time thats used is in the factory. toyota has no facility to look up engine numbers.

chill? nah too hot here Laughing

i chilled, just it really gets me when ppl fly in the face of facts
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Flem
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Tue, 14 December 2004 09:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
emmac IS RIGHT
I WORKED FOR TOYOTA TOO BUT NOW I WORK FOR AN IMPORT ENGINES SHOP AND WORKED ON 20V BLACK TOPS ALL DAY ($600 EA ENGINE) AUTOS ALSO CAME WITH TWIN QUADRANT I LL GET SOME PICS
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Mr Revhead
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nelson, new zealand
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Tue, 14 December 2004 22:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
um we're talking about SILVER TOP AE101 engines, not ae111 blacktops.... theres a coupla different part numbers for the blacktop, but the changes appear to be date based as manual and auto are the same, and they are of the dual type. but they arnt part of this discussion

so again...
AE101 SILVERTOP AUTOS HAVE THE SINGLE ACTUATOR TYPE THROTTLES.
manuals can have either with the change to single type in jan 93

[Updated on: Sun, 18 September 2005 04:04]

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stratoscorse
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 18 September 2005 03:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sorry this is a little of topic but just like to say my SC 4agze from an 1992 ae101 levin has the engine number 4AK05####.

It confussed the eningeer who was expecting a 4AG engine number but it got through (as it should have the numbers where original) and the RTA didn't say any thing but Just thought I would mention it.
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stratoscorse
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 18 September 2005 04:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sorry this is a little of topic but just like to say my SC 4agze from an 1992 ae101 levin has the engine number 4AK05####.

It confussed the eningeer who was expecting a 4AG engine number but it got through (as it should have the numbers where original) and the RTA didn't say any thing but Just thought I would mention it.
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170bhp
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Sun, 18 September 2005 22:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I have silvertops off both manual and automatic and all of them have the single quadrant throttle, I got these motors many many years ago so I doubt they were changed.
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adamaw11
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Mon, 19 September 2005 01:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The silvertop 20v I'm selling has the twin throttle linkages. I had always assumed it was the later incarnation of the silvertop due to my belief that the earlier silvers had the vvt change point at ~4400rpm and the later ones changed it much earlier and had it mainly based on throttle position like mine definately was(with the factory 20v computer on it). It all came in a manual front cut.

There must be at least one bit of information incorrect here...

I'll have to check the engine number and look for the 'k'
Would this be the engine number on the side of the block we're referring to?
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adamaw11
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 00:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
The engine number on my silvertop is 4AK152188

if the 'K' in it means its a later incarnation then I have a later model ST with the dual throttle linkages things. (was all in a manual front cut seemingly un-messed-with)

This would appear to contradict some peoples beliefs.

I have enjoyed reading this thread Smile

I would like to know whether the engine I have was the older or the newer silvertop....


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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 01:09 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the engine number is pretty meaningless outside the assmebly plant.

what you have is an earlier model 20v.

the vvt change point is based on throttle position and temp in the later ecu, basicly once its 1/4 warm anythign over 1/4 throttle switchs the cam.

the earlier one is similar, its not a set rpm

its pretty clear cut really... early = twin late = single
auto = single.
this is backed up by the official epc and every example of ae101 levin/treuno i have seen.

the one odd thing i have found however... is the port shape.
i have found both shapes of port on the dual linkage type....
there is a supersession for the early type, so im thinking the evolution goes like this:
twin linkage oval ports
twin linkage heart ports
single linkage heart ports
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illuminatus
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 04:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quote:

its pretty clear cut really... early = twin late = single


Can you specify the years (roughly if need be) in which late and early 20v 4age where produced/phased out?
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Hachi2Muchi
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 04:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Well besides that...

Is it true that later model silvertops run MAP ECU? So you would know if you had one if late = single actuator? LOL Rolling Eyes
Did MAP 20v come with AFM or not? or can you run it without one?

more questions... Very Happy



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Mr Revhead
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nelson, new zealand
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October 2004
Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
a quick look tells me....

9106-9107 (this is the date of my car) the number for this month is showen to supercede to the number for
9107-9301
9301-9412 this number s/s to the one for
9412-9505

interestingly none of those match the body facelifts
theres also 3 numbers listed for the ecu, the first one s/s to the 2nd one, then a 3rd different one.

so lots of changes....

note a s/s is usually a very minor change and means the part is a direct swap for the previous one
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Mr Revhead
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 04:31 Go to previous messageGo to next message
silvertop was only afm from factory
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domasik
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 10:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
so which of the 2 would theoretically perform better? twin or single?
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Mr Revhead
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nelson, new zealand
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Re: 4AGE 20V Silvertop Differences? Wed, 21 September 2005 21:57 Go to previous message
anythign with the heart shape ports, which is all singles and some duals. not sure how common the dual hearts are though.
have a look at the block face of the manifold, its easy to see the difference. the oval shape is oval with an ugly sharp cutout for the injectors, whereas the heart shape is like an upside down heart with out the dip, hard to explain buts smooth with no shape corners around the injectors.
i have pics some where....
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