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Registered:
June 2002
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what puter for 7mgte?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 00:58
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Just wondering what after market computer some of you guys are using for your 7mgteed cars...i.e.haltech/microtech/autronic....?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Sun, 02 February 2003 01:04
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While I've got a 4AG turbo not a 7MGTE, right now I'm looking into buying a new computer too.
My main choices are autronic SMC (love the SM2, but cant really stretch that many $! same with MoTeC M800!), and Haltech E11.
About the Haltech I like the instructions, the wiring that comes with it, the tuning method (software), the advice + help I've had from Haltech themselves previously
Autronic seems to offer a better lean cruise/self tune function, and I may have to use it as I intend to use multi throttles and I'm not sure how the E11 would cope with that.
Still havent decided whether to use AFM or MAP+TPS, probably want to go AFM
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Mon, 03 February 2003 07:59
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I'm running a Microtech on my 7mgte. It's quite good, VERY easy to tune with the laptop software or handset. It comes with base maps already pre loaded so you just turn the key and she'll run. I've also got lots of previous and present tuning figures in spreadsheets that i've made along the way.
On my website if got a scanned image of the tuning figures when I was making 300rwhp.
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Registered:
June 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Mon, 03 February 2003 12:18
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Thanks for that gte, what's it like in terms of economy/lean cruise driving. also, do you have any drama's with idle up when air or pwr steer cut in and is map sensor or use the airflow metre?
struan.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Mon, 03 February 2003 23:13
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Microtech's are notoriously poor at lean cruise driving, thanks to their relatively low resolution load maps. They're like the Holley of the fuel injection world; great for making big power at WOT, but not much good at anything else! Their main advantage is their low purchase price, but you get what you pay for...
I reckon the Haltech is the pick of the bunch for a mid-range computer. It has much better tunability than the low-end units, but you're not paying for the fancy features of the high-end units (eg Autronic, Motec) that you'd never use on the street.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Mon, 03 February 2003 23:44
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I've read up quite a bit on the range of these ECU's, I'd probably go with the Haltech too if I was after something middle of the range. The Microtech rates really high on websites talking about race cars, as Norbie said, they perform really well in WOT.
The other sites with street cars, for example the WRX ECU Shootout, on the APS website don't recommend it really as they noticed a marked increase in fuel consumption, which I'd assume with Norbie is due to the low resolution.
That being said, you want something cheap that'll make good power, the Microtech is good for that 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 04 February 2003 02:57
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have a look at the Megasquirt.
www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html
cheaper, very flexible (any sensors), MAP based with 8x8 RPMvsMAP table, realtime programming via laptop, datalogging, O2 closed loop for NB and WB sensors... what more could you want 
i got mine from the secodn group buy, have assembled it and it works (connected to computer). not installed yet, but i have seen it running a 22RE supercharged sandrail in the US...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 11:02
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It all depends how you tune it Norbie.
The cruise maps(for setting the fuel efficiency for light throttle apps) are in 500rpm increments. You set it up right and set a target af of around 15:1 and you'll have good ecconomy.
The other ECU's are 250rpm and 125rpm incrEments but when they are setup the same values are used just to fill in the other gaps in the map as 250rpm let alone 125rpm doesn't do a thing to adjust af ratios to necesitate different values.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 13:08
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Sorry I don't follow what you're saying... are you suggesting a higher resolution load map is pointless?
I know quite a few people who have installed Microtech's and been disappointed with the results. Like I said you can get big power out of them, but some people have greater requirements than that.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 22:09
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Can we throw into the mix price?
What is the cost of:
Autronic
Microtech
Motec
Components and tuning? Can you tune them all yourself (providing you have a laptop)
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 22:35
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Which Motec Pete?
M800 with datalogging and all the bits to get it going is ~4K. M48 Pro is around 3400. Not sure of M4.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 22:44
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Don't know much about Motecs but your answer is good engough  . Does that price include tuning? or tuning software?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 22:59
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Includes software, free updates, 6 hours free wide band lambda (if you didn't get the WBL option - a ~$1000 option) and tuning. You pay for dyno time.
Thinking about it for the 1UZ? 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Thu, 06 February 2003 23:57
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Nah I'm putting Delco on the 1UZ. Costing grand total (for computer/wiring/tuning) should be around the $3,500 mark. ($1,000 just for wiring - mental note: do wiring while engine is out of car!).
Will be tuned with wide band (probably only on 3rd day of tuning).
The actual computer and all wiring and sensors has cost me a grand total of $250, but I am borrowing two ignition modules (priced at $100 seccond hand each)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Fri, 07 February 2003 02:21
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just for kicks, download the tuning software for the Megasquirt
http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/megasquirt/fil es/MegaTune/
get the release 2.14 . it's only 234kb...
what you will see is the tuning interface, the enrichment settings, the O2 correction settings etc... works with both WB and NB O2 sensors
this is all open source and continually developed,
yes it's only 64 points, but for $200 it's pretty damn good...
i can bring it along to the DBA factory tour if someone has a laptop with a serial port...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Fri, 07 February 2003 02:35
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>are you suggesting a higher resolution load map is pointless?
>I know quite a few people who have installed Microtech's and >been disappointed with the results. Like I said you can get big >power out of them, but some people have greater requirements >than that
i agree on knowing ppl disappointed with the microtechs... do they interpolate correctly between points? or do they actually step from point to point like some used to?
the amount of fuel needed by an engine is determined by the amount of air getting into the cylinders (+ or - a bit), so ful is proportional to the volumetric efficiency.
torque is also proportional to volumetric efficiency since you get out what you put in, as such.
so... the amount of fuel, and thus the fuel curve for a given load or rpm, will be proportional to the torque curve.
if you have a smooth torque curve (ie V8's) you do not need very high resolution fuel maps. if you have a peaky turbo engine or intake pulse tuned motor (harmonic tuning etc) then you will need higher resolution to account for al the dips and peaks in the torque curve.
to decide how many points you need, calculate your torque curve from the dyno day power curve. then try to draw straight lines on the torque curve to describe it. where the straight lines intersect is where you need a point.
how many changes in curvature does a normal torque curve have?? mine would need about 5 or 6 rpm points to describe WOT. and maybe another just below idle for the idle stabilising (richening) point.
have a look at a table of entries for those computers that have 100rpm or even 500rpm steps, and se how many of them are redundant if you could interpolate between a few points.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Sun, 09 February 2003 09:40
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Higher resolution maps are obviously better. It doesn't take a brain surgeon to work that out.
What i'm saying is with the "cruise" maps its not important, I don't know many people who drive up and down the freeway jumping on and off the throttle, cranking boost then back into full vacuum do you?
You sit at pretty much the same vacuum point at the same speed, which happens to be 110km/h, the speed limit. That's where you get fuel economy. So why have a massive resolution for cruise maps.
My car is more economical than my mates MA61 with 7MGTE and factory ECU on the freeway. We haven't compared on city driving as there are too many variables.
It's not even an issue around the city anyway. As long as your air/fuel ratios are tuned properly for smooth crisp acceleration thats exactly what you want. If it's not economical enough for you then the thing is leaning out and you'll blow a headgasket.
As for the idle up, I have one solenoid i switch on from the centre console for start ups in winter and switch it off after 5 minutes(it can be setup automatically off the M/Tech). When setting your cold start maps just do it over 3 mornings and by the fourth it will be fine. Very easy to adjust if you've got some sort of idea.
These are all features you can't adjust in the factory ECU unless you have a Techtom adaptor and the software, READ f*cking expensive.
I know other MK3's running microtechs and they have no issues with idling whilst air con is on. The 3litres of engine capacity is enough to not even drop it 100rpm.
Also I'm not going for outright power(although I love it). I have smooth, reliable, and crisp acceleration and driveability that is better than my mates car and I have more than twice the kW's he has at his wheels.
Unless you've delved into engine tuning parameters and know what your talking about, its quite difficult to just say "they're only good for WOT".
[Updated on: Sun, 09 February 2003 09:42]
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Sun, 09 February 2003 11:42
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Not only resolution, the other difference is processing power. The cheaper computers have got much less grunt behind them, and therefore aren't as accurate in their behaviour. That said, there's no need to spend TOO much on features like telemetry that aren't any use this side of a v8 supercar!
I'll be getting a Motec shortly, reason being it's the only one (apart from Injec) that can compensate fuel maps for an arbitary voltage source (I'll explain later!)
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 00:11
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so what speed is the processor in some of these computers??
the MS (yeah i know i keep rattlin on ) has an 8MHz processor speed, and the code is written in assembler... at something like 16000rpm it has a CPU load of (iirc) about 20%,so plenty more code can be attached.... what sort of speed does the Motec have??
telemetry? the MS datalogs the rpm, TPS, MAP, pulse width, injector duty cycle, and all of the enrichment parameters...
voltage compensation?? you mean for the change in opening time (and the hold voltage/current for PWM/low ohm injectors)?
the MS does that too
ahh what the heck, you guys aint interested in the DIY car stuff.. ;P
i'll just show you my MS'd rolla at the next (or next,next) dyno day
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 09:46
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As I remember Motec uses a 33MHz 32 bit processor, Motorola (damn cant remember which one!! aargh), and does indeed have a lot more grunt available than most others.
And I know nearly all of them can compensate for battery voltage, I need to compensate +/-100% for voltage based on a seperate sensor (I'll explain some day when I see if it works!), and Motec + Injec are the only ones I'm aware of that can do this.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 09:59
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Isn't that just the M800 or am I off my rocker?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 11:23
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Could be... not sure! Ring 'em up and find out I spose...
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 11:58
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Processing power? What for? Are you running a plasma screen in your car whilst driving?
The maths needed to do calculations for running an engine are very basic and are very, very quickly executed. It's not graphics
that needs heavy processing power.
Injector pulses on my car gor as low as 0.9msec, in that time over 500 program calculations could easily be processed so its not really an issue. It's going overboard in my eye's but I'm probably the worse person to talk to about going overboard!
Mrshin, are you after a voltage input to the ecu to vary a blanket injector percentage increase or decrease(+-0-100%)?
If so that could very easily be done with the Microtech. They do custom programs and the Microtech could use a spare a/d converter that writes to the blacket injector percentage(already exists in the Microtech) and that would work fine.
Custome programs or features cost $250.
Bit cheaper than a Motec M800
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Tue, 11 February 2003 12:08
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Hmmm, interesting thought that... still if I really wanted a budget approach, I'd go with the Injec I guess. Plus, I'm yet to see a microtech equipped car with a nice idle/cold start etc. - in this particular case emissions, idle, starting, etc. are pretty important. As I said, I'm playing with something, and if it works, its gotta work well!
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Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: what puter for 7mgte?
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Wed, 12 February 2003 11:39
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I could show you mine(cept your in VIC), idles perfectly from 5C coolant temp all the way to 90C smoothly better than other factory ECU equipped 7mgte's.(Should see the other guys turn red when theirs don;t idle properly)
It's not hard to do, about 5mins in the morning 3 days in a row is all it takes. You can also wire up a bypass air solenoid off the Microtech and have it temperature activated to give extra idle up when cold but I haven't needed it.
Maybe if your put your aircon on instantly when you start your car on a winters morning but I haven't needed it here in Sydney.
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