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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 11:32
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Im just wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what makes an alloy radiator a lot better. I know they are more efficient in dissipating heat - can someone tell me any exact data on ratios of the two?
My old windsor likes to run a tad on the warm side, so i may look at an aluminium radiator if i intend to use the aircon later this summer. Its running a tad hot at the moment due to running lean and timing, but i still dont like the situation. The 14 and 12" thermos (round ones) do a shit job in cooling it. I wish i had the room for a shrouded OEM fan 
Ta guys
Blake
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 11:50
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Copper conducts heat better than aluminium (almost twice the thermal conductivity actually), but aluminium has a higher specific heat capacity. What this means is aluminium is a better heat sink (ie it absorbs more energy for any given increase in temperature), but copper will get rid of the heat faster.
I would say that conductivity is more important in a radiator, since its whole purpose is to shed heat. The water in the system acts as the heat sink anyway; its specific heat capacity is far higher than both metals.
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:00
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http://www.are.com.au/feat/techtalk/ALUMRAD.htm
Probably one of the best sources of info on radiators, intercoolers & other various heat exchangers. Just make sure you check out the rest of "tech talk", there's alot of interesting stuff there (that's if you havn't seem this already).
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:02
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TA GUYS.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:05
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what i am curious about though, is why are all the late model cars, which do run hotter always using alloy radiators? Is alloy cheaper than brass? i always thought the alloys were more efficient therfore keeping cars cooler...just my thoughts as i have seen hot v8 powered old falcons which came out with 4 row brass coolers, being replaced with the same radiator made out of alloy. im confused as i thought these were the way to go 
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:13
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 22:05 |
what i am curious about though, is why are all the late model cars, which do run hotter always using alloy radiators? Is alloy cheaper than brass? i always thought the alloys were more efficient therfore keeping cars cooler...just my thoughts as i have seen hot v8 powered old falcons which came out with 4 row brass coolers, being replaced with the same radiator made out of alloy. im confused as i thought these were the way to go
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You didnt read the link did you?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:25
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What really hurts to think about is that brass is an alloy 
Electric fans are never a match for a decent engine driven job, simply because of the power required to drive them - say you have a 1KW fan, at 14 volts this will require over 71 amps to run it - and that's completely forgetting any losses along the way. Still, the other side of it is that fans should only be required to cool the engine when the car is standing still (traffic etc.), and THEORETICALLY generating a minimal amount of waste heat. Welcome to the dark side of Ford V8's (and sixes... and Chevs.. and Holdens... and...) - poor water circulation, poor water pumps, and very low thermal efficiency, especially at idle, is why you'll see plenty of examples with 5 and 6 core mattress sized rads boiling away constantly. This problem is made even worse if you try and do a burnout - you only have the thermal mass of the cooling system to protect you here (an electric fan is always going to be useless) - this is why cars that are built for burnout comps plumb in a massive water header tank in line with the radiator, in the hope that there's enough thermal mass there to absorb the heat made in a minute or two of tyre frying, without boiling.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:40
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yeah shane i read that link. that states what i said in that the alloys are a lot more efficient.
I was just replying to norbie's post.
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 12:59
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I might be showing my ignorance here (I am wearing my flame proof underwear), but isn't one of the big reasons an aftermarket alloy radiator is chosen because of the reduced weight over the same size in copper?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 13:25
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Actually in a great number of cases I think the number one consideration is bling. 
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 21:26
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| cannonball wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 23:34 |
so,
1=Bling
2=weight reduction
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23=reduced heat dissipation (ie worse at cooling)????????
*Puts on extra layer of flame proof grundies*
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Did you read the link above?
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An aluminium radiator cannot only dissipate more BTU's of total heat, but also quicker. I have seen data logging results of a comparison between a copper/ brass and an aluminium radiator of similar dimensions, fitted to the same drag car with the water temp. graph being slower to rise, not as high a peak and also, started dropping as soon as the driver got off the throttle for the aluminium, whereas the other radiator actually kept increasing a little, before dropping.
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Location:
Hobart, Tas
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 21:54
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I read the link too, and it didn't realy mention weight differences. Copper rads are quite heavy, so I assumed one of the benefits of aluminium was to shed a few kilos at the front of the car.
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 22:37
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Now you know.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 23:18
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While I don't claim to know much about radiators, it should be pointed out the above link comes from a company which makes its bread and butter selling aluminium radiators. I'm sure they wouldn't be at all biased though.
Meanwhile, the actual numbers for both metals are freely available:
Cu thermal conductivity [/W m-1 K-1]: 400
Al thermal conductivity [/W m-1 K-1]: 235
Can anyone with actual knowledge on the subject reconcile these numbers with the ARE link provided above?
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Thu, 06 October 2005 23:33
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Copper is also very reactive and would corrode quicker than alloy if stray current started to flow through the cooling system.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 00:53
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Material / Thermal conductivity (298K) W·m-1·K-1
Copper: 401
Aluminum: 237
Brass: 120
Cheers
Wilbo
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 04:55
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I see that copper has a better thermal conductivity but I cant remember from my uni days how this thermal conductivity relates to convection, in particular the forced convection a radiator receives. Maybe the efficiency is not on the water to radiator but the radiator to air???
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:05
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| bahnugget wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:40 |
yeah, what norbie said.. copper's gunna own cause you wanna get rid of the heat faster than you get it.. thats what radiators are all about
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Thats all well and good, but copper radiators are not purely copper.
I would believe that Richard from ARE would not put information on his site just to benefit his business.
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:07
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| Cool1 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 16:05 |
Thats all well and good, but copper radiators are not purely copper.
I would believe that Richard from ARE would not put information on his site just to benefit his business.
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they're not purely copper but the copper content is what makes the difference.
If he's not going to use his website to supplement his business than whats it for?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:18
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| bahnugget wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 16:07 |
they're not purely copper but the copper content is what makes the difference.
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So what your saying is that for a radiator to be efficient, its just needs a small amount of copper in it?
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If he's not going to use his website to supplement his business than whats it for?
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I'm sure that the information on his site does supplement his business! But all the information is fact and has been researched in his own workshop or by others he works closely with.
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:21
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no, i'm not saying that just because theres a miniscule amount of copper in a radiator its the shit, im saying that the fact that the radiator is primarily made of copper makes it better than one that contains no copper. its the point of alloys to get the best of both worlds.
and I'm sure your friend really isnt biased, i mean its not like selling alloy radiators is his livelyhood or anything
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:25
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| Cool1 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:05 |
| bahnugget wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:40 |
yeah, what norbie said.. copper's gunna own cause you wanna get rid of the heat faster than you get it.. thats what radiators are all about
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Thats all well and good, but copper radiators are not purely copper.
I would believe that Richard from ARE would not put information on his site just to benefit his business.
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This is right, i think the brass addition reduces the efficieny or coefficient of thermal conductivity.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:27
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heres an interesting scenario for you though. my uncles 75 series landcruiser 4.2L diesel has an alloy cooler. we installed a commodore thermo off a vs or somethng. it takes literally 10 seconds to cool.
My ma70 non turbo is using the same sender switch, has a physically larger brass cooler and a 14 and 11" fans, and takes about 45 seconds to cool.
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:29
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| bahnugget wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 16:21 |
im saying that the fact that the radiator is primarily made of copper makes it better than one that contains no copper.
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So where are these radiators that are primarily made of copper?
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and I'm sure your friend really isnt biased, i mean its not like selling alloy radiators is his livelyhood or anything
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Friend? Hes not my friend! I have just dealt with him in the past.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:30
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btw did any of you also read that about the lead solder in brass radiators? if its a shit conductor, thatll make a difference too i guess.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:33
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I used an ADRAD alloy core about 420mm x 450mm x 50mm with 2 rows. The inlet and outlet are on the same end tank, it has a baffle in that end tank fitted to cross the flow. With my 16" thermo it takes only about 10 - 20 secs to bring the 1JZ back to temperature. It works excellent for such a small size.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 06:42
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 14:27 |
heres an interesting scenario for you though. my uncles 75 series landcruiser 4.2L diesel has an alloy cooler. we installed a commodore thermo off a vs or somethng. it takes literally 10 seconds to cool.
My ma70 non turbo is using the same sender switch, has a physically larger brass cooler and a 14 and 11" fans, and takes about 45 seconds to cool.
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If this 'time' you have measured that it takes to cool is off the guage, then you can't use that.
When my thermo's kick in, the guage goes from red to normal in about 5 seconds, but you look at the laptop of the ACTUAL coolant temp, and it takes a lot longer to drop from 98ish to 85deg, probably closer to 30-45seconds.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 07:04
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| Cool1 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 16:29 |
So where are these radiators that are primarily made of copper?
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On brass/copper radiators, the fins are made out of copper. The fins are the important element when we're talking about heat transfer; it's easy enough to get heat from the coolant to the metal of the radiator, but transferring it from the radiator to the airstream is the hard part (which is the whole reason radiators have fins in the first place).
So, when comparing copper fins to alloy fins, the numbers posted earlier suggest the copper ones will get more heat into the airstream for a given surface area. If anyone has scientific reasoning to suggest otherwise I'm all ears, but the cynic in me isn't willing to take ARE's commercial web site as sole evidence.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 07:09
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hrm. wonder why not aluminium top, bottom, sides and tubes, and copper fins?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 07:10
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| Norbie wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 17:04 |
The fins are the important element when we're talking about heat transfer
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I agree
| Quote: |
It's easy enough to get heat from the coolant to the metal of the radiator, but transferring it from the radiator to the airstream is the hard part (which is the whole reason radiators have fins in the first place).
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It might be easy to get the heat transfer from the coolant to the brass tubes, but you then need this heat to be transferred from the tubes to the fins.
You also have to remember the quantity of solder in a copper/brass radiator. Solder/lead is a great compound for storing heat!
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 07:39
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this LJ GTR (genuine GTR) is totally built in house at Extreme custom engineering..a 2 row PWR core, with his own end tanks etc keeps this 383 small block chev cool..this car is expected to run 10.80's
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 08:22
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So that's one example of an aluminium radiator that works well, but what does it add to the discussion about aluminium vs copper/brass?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 09:19
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yes but its a drag car so has a very basic setup if i had a scanner i can show you some of the one i do.ill try using the digital camera to take a pic of the pic or youll have to wait till i go to the workshop.lol im not much of a pic taking person.
mick
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 09:42
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no, that is timing when the fans come on and when they then go off. nothing to do with the gauge. they both are using the 90 on 85 off switches.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 09:48
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my radiator is a 70mm thick 4 core chev one, it doesnt overheat at the moment, but the timing is out and its running lean = running hot. however i want to have aircon (the whole setup is still in the car) and want to be able to race it...and this summer is gonna be fucking hot! therefore im gonna need a serious cooler. and with those two shit fans (all i could fit in the depth) they do sweet fanny adams.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 10:26
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 17:48 |
my radiator is a 70mm thick 4 core chev one, it doesnt overheat at the moment, but the timing is out and its running lean = running hot. however i want to have aircon (the whole setup is still in the car) and want to be able to race it...and this summer is gonna be fucking hot! therefore im gonna need a serious cooler. and with those two shit fans (all i could fit in the depth) they do sweet fanny adams.
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Have you had it serviced?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 10:58
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| Skip wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 18:26 |
| V8_MA61 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 17:48 |
my radiator is a 70mm thick 4 core chev one, it doesnt overheat at the moment, but the timing is out and its running lean = running hot. however i want to have aircon (the whole setup is still in the car) and want to be able to race it...and this summer is gonna be fucking hot! therefore im gonna need a serious cooler. and with those two shit fans (all i could fit in the depth) they do sweet fanny adams.
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Have you had it serviced?
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I was thinking, if a 4 core radiator can't keep it cool, you've got no fucking chance.
Get the timing/afr sorted, then see if its still running hot.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 11:00
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 17:42 |
no, that is timing when the fans come on and when they then go off. nothing to do with the gauge. they both are using the 90 on 85 off switches.
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That sounds more like VERY bad placement of the thermoswitch than anything else.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 11:08
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they are both in the top thermostat housing.
its not overheating nor near close to boiling, but i just want to be safe.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 16:28
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| wilbo666 wrote on Fri, 07 October 2005 10:53 |
Material / Thermal conductivity (298K) W·m-1·K-1
Copper: 401
Aluminum: 237
Brass: 120
Cheers
Wilbo
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bingo...
i dunno if i'm going to add anything here but... 
heat transfer can be remarkably affected by even the thinnest of layers. for jet turbine blades, we use about 0.1mm to reduce the temperature (from one side of the layer to the other.. ie in 0.1mm thickness) by 100-200degC. this material is usually 8%PSZ (partially stabilised zirconia), but similar in properties to alumina...
anyway... liquid to metal direct heat transfer is usually very fast, and transfer of heat within a liquid, especially when it is agitated is also very fast, so for a radiator, you can assume a very small thermal gradient in the water at the water/metal interface. as long as the inside of the radiator is perfectly clean, it will transfer heat well.. once you start getting scale and sludge, you can reduce the heat transfer remarkably..
heat transfer through the materials, i think, is not as important as you think.... see.. both materials transfer heat well, but if they are both transferring heat fast enough, then the outside of the core/tube will be at almost the same temperature as the inside of the core/tub, and so the relative conuctivity is of little concern... if they conductivity was low, and there was a significant (maybe.. 5-10deg) temperature gradient across the thickness of the metal (0.5mm??) then you chould be worried.. but i don't think there is such a big gradient there...
umm... weight reduction?? minimal, especialyl considering the thing is filled with water, and you are likely to put larger end tanks on it anyway.. AND the alloy is likely to be thicker than the copper/brass...
bras is copper and zinc. copper is more expensive than aluminium in a mass production sense, and aluminium is easy to attach to plastic tanks (thicker material, bend it over and it seals.. no way you are going to have 1mm thick brass/copper for the ends of the core in a production vehicle!!!)
aluminium is MORE reactive than copper. aluminium OXIDE (ie anodised/corroded) is LESS reactive than copper, and self healing 
BUT, aluminium oxide (alumina) has good insulating properties.. so the maybe.. 5-10 micron thick (at a guess) layer of alumina should be good enough to decrease the heat transfer by a little bit... then again, how insulating is the paint used on conventional radiators?
as for the ARE site, there is a fair bit of fact, mixed in with some snake oil and good old fashioned salesmanship....
hmm, copper tin (solder) thermal conductivity
well.. lead = 35
tin = 66 ?? something like that.. and the change is linear between them. or close enough http://www.interfluxusa.com/images/thermalconducti vity.jpg
solder aint a great conductor of heat...
by contrast.. thermal conductivity of air is....
0.026.. compared to aluminium of about 240, and...
WATER of 0.60
hmm, thermal capacities
aluminum 0.896 kJ/kgK.
Copper 0.383 kJ/kgK.
how are the alloy fins connected? spot/resistance welded??
methinks it is the interface with the fins, as well as the thermal transfer rate from the surface (be it bare metal, painted, or oxidised) that determines the effectiveness...
i'd start by measuring the temperature of the water in the radiator at inlet and outlet... the surface temperature of the tank or a tube if you can, near inlet or outlet.. and go from there..
you do have a thermostat? the water is not flowing too fast?
regardless of water temp in.. if the radiator is doing it's job (and the water is slow enough) you should have a large decrease between inlet and outlet temperature... or at least you should remove the same amount of heat as will be put back in as it passes thru the engine...
you could even try restricting the water flow, and see how that affects both heat transfer to and fron the water...
i'd be trouble shooting the current system before splashing out of a bling radiator (regardless if it is more effective)
Cya, Stewart
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Fri, 07 October 2005 20:20
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i wondered were youd been stewart!lol
mick
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On Probation
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
December 2004
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sat, 08 October 2005 09:08
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Seriousley,the PWR radiators are good,they do the job,but they are all bling aswell.
Why pay $900+ for a PWR assembly when you can get a copper/brass unit custom made for about $400-$500 and do the same job.
PWR rads are expensive because of the time it takes to make them
They use aluminium/plastic rads in new car for weight reduction and are cheaper to make.
V8 MA61-your 4 row radiator is plenty big for the setup you have.Just get the timing and mixures right and it will be sweet.
Thermo fans are a problem for it,but if thats all you can fit,it will have to do.
Aluminium corodes internally faster than Copper due to stray current.And not changing the coolant every 12 months.
Copper corodes quicker externally than aluminium but if you pull the radiator out every 12 months and get is chemi-cleaned and painted,it will last you atleast 8 years.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sat, 08 October 2005 13:47
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| kingmick wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 06:20 |
i wondered were youd been stewart!lol
mick
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Tokyo....
Shinjuku, Shibuya, Ikebukero (Toyota Amlux), etc etc..
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Location:
brisvegas
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sat, 08 October 2005 22:37
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i was trying to say that this, its driven round the streets, is stret registered, and is in the 10's..he must be doing something right with the cooling system..somtimes simple works best, i'm sure you would know that by now Mick..
on the other hand..i use a 3 core nissan urvan radiator in my 86, when i had the GZE in there..didn't have thermo fans on there at all..it was in there for about a year when i took it to a skid pan and seriously over heated and farked her..my bad
Matty
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sat, 08 October 2005 22:52
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| drift86levin wrote on Sun, 09 October 2005 08:37 |
i was trying to say that this, its driven round the streets, is stret registered, and is in the 10's..he must be doing something right with the cooling system..somtimes simple works best, i'm sure you would know that by now Mick..
on the other hand..i use a 3 core nissan urvan radiator in my 86, when i had the GZE in there..didn't have thermo fans on there at all..it was in there for about a year when i took it to a skid pan and seriously over heated and farked her..my bad
Matty
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yep know that, just thought id show another setup!mate his car looks nice to me.just thought id share a few more cooling systems to give everyone more idea's if they are having a hard time keeping things cool.
mick
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sat, 08 October 2005 23:10
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points to remmeber in cooling systems!
1.overly thick cores dont work aswell.
2.if you have the room,tillt the radiator back.
3.filler neck has to be highest point in system or you have to use a pipe to fill.
4.there is nothing wrong at all with copper,i prefur alloy because i get pwr core cheap and do the end tanks and alloy cooler inside them{lol or if im slack a mate does them for me,thanks plazma man :)ill show you him the link later!lol}
5.make sure the radiator is sealed in,so no air bipasses around it,youd be suprised how much cooling air can be lost.
6.bleed,bleed and bleed again,air is a curse in a cooling system.
7.you can go to a higher pressure rad cap if you system needs it,which can help aswell in a well bled system.
8.use water till you know there is no leaks in your new system.
9.make sure you run a thermostat or at the very least a restrictor,if the water flows to fast you wont get the full benifit of the cooling system.
10.high flow thermostats can be a big help,if you dont have a bleed of the thermostat housing drill a couple of 1/8 holes were the bleed holes are.
11.in older cars,the fan shroud of a later model car can be a huge help.
i could go on a bit more,but i finished my morning coffe,need a refill
mick
p.s sorry if its a bit all over the place,but just going of the top of my head and im tired.
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Location:
Rocklea qld
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 00:09
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alloy radiators disperse 15% more heat then a brass radiator. you arent still running that 4 row radiator you were gonna are you? that would be to thick for the thermos you have as it wontpull the air through enough to cool it. alloy is not always better. it just comes down to your application. how good is the rad you have now? do you know if it was erviced recently? it could be partially blocked. are you running a low temp thermostat. say around 68 degrees? id be ditching your thermos and either go for 1 16" spal thermo as they are the best on the market or run a engine fan and a shroud. also on alot of heavily worked v8's people tap into a water jacket at the back of the inlet manifold to run the water up to the radiator as they tend toleave the hot water in the back of the engine to long and give you higher running temperature. there are alot of different things that can be the proplem before going to a new radiator. do you even have a shroud with your thermo fans atm? a shroud will give you about an extra 15% cooling effiecency also. if you dont seem to be getting and conclusive answers do you want me to have a look some time. remember i do work in a radiator shop.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:45
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would you mind popping around sometime to look at it ben? i have fuck all room in there due to the v8's long water pump. thats the reason i had to go thermos.
I Went out today (is about 30"c) and a lot hotter in the direct sunlight, and i warmed her up. I revved it a couple of times to get it warmer, and i idled it once up to the middle where the fans come on (85'C) i left it run for another 5 minutes, revved it a few more times and just tried to get it a bit hotter. towards the end of that 5 mintues it went a needle or so over 1/2 way. (this is on a sa63 dash) i left it at that for anothe rminute or so and it only went fractionally higher. then i turned it off and let the fans run when the car was off. the gauge probly went to 60-65%. i turned the fans off and went inside, came out ten minutes later and the car had gone down to pretty much a pisswisker over 1/2.
note it hasnt been timed or tuned yet...are things looking ok or should i be worried?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:51
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put a proper after market temp gauge in.it might not be hot at all.
mick
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:59
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With the timing and tunning not set, you are wasting your time mate. Get that sorted then start worrying about it. 
Cheers
Wilbo
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 10:18
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| people100 wrote on Sun, 09 October 2005 10:09 |
alloy radiators disperse 15% more heat then a brass radiator.
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According to whom?
Did you read the previous posts in this thread?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 10:35
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| V8_MA61 wrote on Thu, 06 October 2005 21:32 |
Im just wondering if anyone can tell me exactly what makes an alloy radiator a lot better. I know they are more efficient in dissipating heat - can someone tell me any exact data on ratios of the two?
My old windsor likes to run a tad on the warm side, so i may look at an aluminium radiator if i intend to use the aircon later this summer. Its running a tad hot at the moment due to running lean and timing, but i still dont like the situation. The 14 and 12" thermos (round ones) do a shit job in cooling it. I wish i had the room for a shrouded OEM fan
Ta guys
Blake
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are the fans shrouded? or mounted directly on the radiator?
i found a big difference going from directly mounted fan, to having a shroud the entire width of the radiator, but only 40mm deep.
if you don't have space for a thin shroud, you might be better off looking at moving the radiator forward.....and making space for a shroud or engine fan...
as for the water pump, Meziere (sp?) make elec pumps for most V8 crap motors, and they are very different to the davies craig toys
that would leave more space for you... and still be cheaper than an alloy radiator
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 10:45
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...and probably shift the water a touch more effectively than the horrible Ford 'pump'
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Radiators: alloy vs Brass
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Sun, 09 October 2005 11:23
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It's not very likely the car has a cooling problem - it is not in tune and that's most likely pumping way too much heat into the cooling system.
Rather than waste money on unnecessary cooling systems upgrades, pull the plugs out (they'll show what the engine is doing) and also put a timing light on the engine.
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