Author | Topic |
Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 08:45
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Gday lads,
I have a ke20 with ta22 running gear, this includes brakes.
I'm switching to a ca18det, with an r31 skyline rear end (keeping the r31 brakes), and i'm looking to do a brake upgrade. I've already purchased s4 rx7 calipers with the intention of also getting some s4 rx7 discs, and was going to get some coilovers made up with them fitted. I've since worked out that this probably won't clear my wheels (calipers going to hit the spokes) - which sucks. Don't really want to run spacers.
So, any good but easy(ish) options are what i'm chasing, the satisfaction of doing it myself would be fantastic, but if it can't happen, i suppose i'll just have to pay someone. Now, i'm told that having ta22 brakes could be in my favour, but most brake upgrades i've seen involve changing the strut/hub anyway, in which case i'm not sure that it will bolt up to the rest of my stuff, my strut tops, etc.
The only drama is i have absolutely no idea what my front gear is right now, except that the brake size does appear to match ta22, no idea about the struts, and it appears that the seats have been "persuaded" a little to seat the spring firmly.
Can anyone please identify what it all is? And recommend any options for me?
Ages ago i roughly measure them up, using string, so these are a guide only:
Gear on my ke20:
Circumfrence of strut = ~165mm
Diameter = ~52.5mm
Spring circumfrence = ~405-410mm
Spring diameter = ~130mm
Stock ke25 stuff: (assuming same as ke20, ke25 is my parts car)
Circumfrence of strut = ~155mm
Diameter = ~49.3mm
Spring Circumfrence = ~435mm
Spring Diameter = ~138mm
Take these with a grain of salt, wasn't real easy to measure.
Any help appreciated, cheers
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Registered: October 2005
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 13:44
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This might sound retarded, but some of the front wheel drive struts may fit in there. You'll HAVE to get the end of the CV and bolt it in as normal to hold it together but it does open a wider range of choices should you get desperate.
AFIK my ae82 has ae92 struts/hubs. Since the only real difference is the CV; the balljoint, strut top and steering arm will probably fit up fairly easy. You will probably end up with a slightly wider track (because the balljoint isnt directly under most struts) and a little negative camber.
Wider track couldnt really hurt, but camber would need to be checked.
It'll also open up a wider range of shocks if you pick the right struts.
Assuming your strut is out, it sould only take about 15mins to check. I'd probably take all the bolts out at home, put them back in, drive to a wrecker, jack it up, take the strut out and try a few alternatives.
Just dont forget the CV end if you decide fwd struts might work.
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: February 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 14:00
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that's an RA23/RA40 strut - well the caliper and mounting method sure looks like one.
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 15:10
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can you measure the disc thickness and diameter??
the calipers also look similar to KE70, and they have similar spring diameter to KE10 and KE20... and also have the brake line tag on the same side as yours...
are the disks, 218 or 228mm diameter??
thickness? 10 or 12.5mm thick?
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 22:45
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First off cheers for the help lads
Myne - thanks for the info, but its already a bit of a weird mix - i'm looking to upgrade to ~260mm discs, which will be a mission in itself - so i'd prefer not to make it any harder than it needs to be
Thechuckster - any measurements i can take, more photos to very any theories?
oldcorollas - They appear to be 10mm thick
Diameter i'm just trying to come up with a good way to measure, any suggestions?
The spring diameter is visibly smaller than the ke25 stockies (assuming they're the same as ke20) - but it also looks to me like the bottom spring seat has been hammered a little to help things sit a bit tighter?
To set the scene, i believe a ta22 donor car was used in setting up my car - engine, box, diff, are all from a ta22. I'd lean toward most parts being used from a ta22 for this reason, but you never know..
ed: Oh, and is it just me, or is that a weld half way along the lower arm (forgive me, don't know the correct names for most things like this, feel free to enlighten me) - and is this usually present, or is it something someone has done to make this all fit?
[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2005 22:48]
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 23:14
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myne wrote on Sat, 08 October 2005 23:44 | This might sound retarded, but some of the front wheel drive struts may fit in there. You'll HAVE to get the end of the CV and bolt it in as normal to hold it together but it does open a wider range of choices should you get desperate.
AFIK my ae82 has ae92 struts/hubs. Since the only real difference is the CV; the balljoint, strut top and steering arm will probably fit up fairly easy. You will probably end up with a slightly wider track (because the balljoint isnt directly under most struts) and a little negative camber.
Wider track couldnt really hurt, but camber would need to be checked.
It'll also open up a wider range of shocks if you pick the right struts.
Assuming your strut is out, it sould only take about 15mins to check. I'd probably take all the bolts out at home, put them back in, drive to a wrecker, jack it up, take the strut out and try a few alternatives.
Just dont forget the CV end if you decide fwd struts might work.
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FWD struts wont fit easily, dont even bother trying. It is a completely different setup, especially as the FWD setup is made for the axle to be protruding. In order to get it setup you would need to construct a custom stubaxle and mount it with that in there. May as well just mount S13 bits if you are going to that extreme.
And to be honest i have no idea why you would when there are so many good Toyota upgrades which just bolt right on.
As for this, it might be worth looking at the Corona/Hilux/Peugot brake upgrade, especially if you are going to coilovers.
EDIT: Regarding the weld, its not on any of my Lower Control Arms (thats the term btw). But it does look relatively stock. Have a look on the underside to see if it has been reinforced. Although that could just mean that the previous owner had recognised that it was a weak point.
One common way to get the right pickups on each end is to cut the control arms in half and splice them with others. One example of this is the S13 upgrade to AE86s, where the LCA is cut in half, and the inner is welded to an S13 outer.
[Updated on: Sat, 08 October 2005 23:17]
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 23:17
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Attempted to measure diameter, very difficult, used two rulers and a tape measure, one would have been square as i was able to edge it up, but the other wasn't really accurate
With my crude tools as best i could, it seemed to be more like 230 than 220mm, but it would be quite easy for 10mm to be compensated for with a non square ruler on one side
According to the DBA catalogue, ta22 is 10mm thick and 228mm in diameter, ke70 is 12.5 thick and 218 diameter
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I supported Toymods
Location: Perth.
Registered: April 2005
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sat, 08 October 2005 23:49
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abit off topic, but how much oil is covering your cross member dude
(that sounded wrong...huh?)
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 00:43
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lol, mind out of the gutter
I had a phat leak from my rocker cover and had to limp home a while ago, never got around to cleaning it properly
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I supported Toymods
Location: melbourne
Registered: June 2002
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 01:27
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Regarding the weld on your lower control arm, definately is not factory, as the two halfes don't line up well enough.
It is a cut and shut from 2 lower control arms to give more negative camber, or to fit two from different cars together so they will bolt up nicely. I have seem this quite a few times.
nice spring perches!
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:38
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ahh k, forget about my dodgy KE70 theory
i guess in theory it is possible to have bits welded, but i can't check the code of practice atm (it's not close), but it would have to be signed off by engineer... even welding cross-member is not taken lightly..
what you cannot do is to weld cast iron parts or steering components.. under almost any circumstance (unless it is done very very porperly and tested to be safe)
there are a few different LCA's out there, incluiding the smegma arm into AE86 stuff, so there may be a non-bodge version around... tape meaure, calipers and wrecking yard ...
it does look like TA22 gear... the KE20 ball joint is pretty small (but bigger than KE20), but you'd have to check the spline size, and measure the diameter of where the BJ goes into the arm to be sure...
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Location: Canberra
Registered: July 2005
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:42
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thechuckster wrote on Sun, 09 October 2005 00:00 | that's an RA23/RA40 strut - well the caliper and mounting method sure looks like one.
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That's what I was gonna say!
bananaman, *A23 struts are not the same as TA22 ones. The RA23 brakes are better than the TA22 ones, but you will find that the struts are interchangable, so snitching a pair from a wreckers would be a good start. As far as brake upgrades to the RA23 strut is concerned, check out cool1's FCRX7 caliper upgrade. I'll be doing something similar to that on my car.
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Location: Montrose, VIC
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 03:45
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Get some RA23/40 struts in there, and get some R33 Skyline turbo brakes on there. (297mm, 4 pots, etc.) Not too hard, and much better than messing around with anything smaller. If you wanted smaller, you could try the S14 4 pot 280mm setup.
As for the rears, those R31 handbrake calipers = evil.
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 08:20
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oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 09 October 2005 13:38 | ahh k, forget about my dodgy KE70 theory
i guess in theory it is possible to have bits welded, but i can't check the code of practice atm (it's not close), but it would have to be signed off by engineer... even welding cross-member is not taken lightly..
what you cannot do is to weld cast iron parts or steering components.. under almost any circumstance (unless it is done very very porperly and tested to be safe)
there are a few different LCA's out there, incluiding the smegma arm into AE86 stuff, so there may be a non-bodge version around... tape meaure, calipers and wrecking yard ...
it does look like TA22 gear... the KE20 ball joint is pretty small (but bigger than KE20), but you'd have to check the spline size, and measure the diameter of where the BJ goes into the arm to be sure...
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The last paragraph here - i assume you meant to say the ta22 ball joint is pretty small (but bigger than ke20)?. I'm not familar with where you want me to measure, and like i said i'm not good on the terms for most of the parts, let alone the acronyms
Tricky - thanks champ, i'll do a search. Are we working on the fact that what i have now is a ta22 strut, or that it doesn't matter and that an RA23 one will fit anyway? Sizewise 254mm isn't too bad a size, but i was hoping for vented rather than solid.. For the record, the r31 brakes are 260mm or so though, so the fronts will be a tad smaller in this case. If its an easy option though, this isn't so bad. Having good calipers should make up for it..
Mrshin - I've already bought some 15" wheels that i was planning on using (the s4 calipers may object to this though...), so this rules out anything much above 260-270mm i believe (depending on caliper). I've measured the internal diameter of my wheel at 335mm at its smallest point close to the hub, and 365mm further out from the hub. I might have to accept a change of wheels because of caliper dramas, but i really don't want bigger than 15" particularly.
I noticed the handbrake deal on the r31 rear. I've dealt with these on my old ED falcon daily and it was a real prick..
For the record, everything on my car now is engineered. That includes a 6pt roll cage though, so take that with a grain of salt i suppose...
OT question - when i go to have the ca18det / new brakes / diff etc inspected, can they knock back the engineers report on these items only if they don't like my roll cage?
ed: Can an ra60 vented disc be used on an ra40 strut?
[Updated on: Sun, 09 October 2005 08:21]
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Location: Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered: January 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 08:49
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i actually meant KE10 vs KE20.. they have different size holes in the steering arm for the ball joint, but the hole in the LCA is the same...
as for cage... 6 point is legal... IF it satisfies the head clearance criteria. methinks that might be difficult in a KE20 tho..
a good engineer will check the previous work is up to scratch also, but just because an engineer signs it off, doesn't make it roadworthy or legal (if it is outside the limitations and hasn't been approved by RTA directly)... afaik...
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 09:38
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Ahh, fair enough..
I'm not seeking a signoff on the cage again, i'd rather it were ignored, assuming i can use my old paperwork.
I tihnk my cage my fail for other reasons like visibility / closeness to the pillars, etc. But, thats for another day! Back to my brakes
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Location: Montrose, VIC
Registered: May 2002
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 09:51
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I've got 15" wheels on my KE70, with the Nissan brakes, and by golly they're a close fit... but they DO fit! (I'm talking less than 1mm clearance in both directions!)
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 11:07
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Haha, a bit tight for my liking
Was it just me or did such nissan brakes fit on fairly easily? I've been doing a bit of searching, thought i saw it mentioned somewhere, but now i can't find it again...
The s14 items would probably be more suitable, 300mm overkill. Are they a relatively easy swap?
Cheers
Bardin
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: February 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 11:18
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to run nissan calipers on RA40 (as Mr Shin rightly suggests) you have to change to XT130 struts - the mounting points for calipers on RA23/40 struts are wildly different and no other calipers that i know easily adapt to them.
cheers,
Charles.
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 11:32
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Is there any writeups regarding this setup around?
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Location: Brisbane
Registered: February 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 11:37
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go here and scroll down to "Other Conversions" - the one you're wanting is called "Celica Brake Upgrade".
To run nissan 4-spots you probably need to read this and then work out how to adapt it to a smaller car and deal with the +ve camber that an MA61 or similar strut would introduce
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Sun, 09 October 2005 12:16
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I've read the celica brake upgrade page many a time
I feel like i've come in circles though, because i thought i was told the corona/pug/hilux gear was a no go on ta22 stuff - but then if ra40/ta23 and ta22 struts are interchangable, and the xt130 struts go on ta23, doesn't that therefore mean the xt130 strut will go on ta22 gear as well?
Getting lost in the sea of brakes.. haha. If the corona/pug/hilux setup will work, i'm perfectly willing to follow this path...
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Location: Adelaide
Registered: May 2003
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Location: Canberra
Registered: June 2005
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 02:37
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So the later Ta22s had the correct size stub axle? My engineers papers say my brakes and running gear are from a celica circa 74, but worth double checking of course.
As far as upgrading to ra23/40 stuff goes, i'd be all for it if they were vented, i want something in the order of 260mm and vented - not going to have an intermediate "yeah that'll do" sorta setup. Aside from being solid, the ra23/40 stuff would probably be fine, shame... I guess i'll have to make the call on how much i want to spend, IF they aren't suited to pug/hilux/corona.
By stub axle size, you mean length or diameter (or am i picturing the wrong thing completely ). (Ed: and what size am i looking for?)
The car is currently fully engineered as i said, i should add also registered, exactly in this condition in march. Not to say that my inspection was particularly strict, mind.. If it causes a problem later on i'm sure something can be arranged without the use of that weld.
[Updated on: Mon, 10 October 2005 02:42]
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Location: Canberra
Registered: June 2005
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 03:09
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Bananaman
Sorry I've confused you, myself now. All TA-22 stub axles and hubs are the same size and run the same bearings.
There were however a couple of brake caliper styles used on the TA-22 in Australia. Early ones had a solid back as shown in your pictures and later ones had a hole to view the pads and rotor (similar to the RA23/28/40)but are the same in other respects.
The calipers were the initial key to me saying they could well be TA-22 stuff and early.
You will need to measure the stub axle diameter where the inner most bearing runs.
Off the top of my head I am not sure what size to look for, but I can have the answer this evening or if somone has one apart today, either the RA23 or TA-22 they can measure and post it up before then.
Regards
Rodger
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 10:55
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Argh- the thread goes dead right on the moment of truth! I'm right on the verge of ordering the bits needed for corona/pug/hilux, does anyone have further thoughts on compatibility with ta22 bits?
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Location: Canberra
Registered: June 2005
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 11:22
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Bananaman
I think the Corona/Pug/Hilux is a very good conversion. Well worth considering and then doing the strut length modifications. But for such a light car it may be over braked.
Definitely must use the Corona struts to get the correct mountings for the Hilux calipers for this conversion. Also the corona hub will not go on the TA-22 strut.
There are other conversions which start with the RA23/28 strut but more work goes into the brackets for the caliper of choice.
Add my "avatar" TA-22 into the mix. I use an RA60/65 vented rotor and hub, on RA23/28 strut and a TN Magna single piston caliper. I also have done a Nissan GQ vented rotor on the RA23/28 hub and again the TN Magna caliper.
Here is another one. The RA60/65 rotor and hub, corona strut and twin piston caliper with spacers to widen them out.
BTW I measured the RA23/28 (had no TA-22 struts) stub axle diameter where the inner bearing runs.
32mm diameter.
More thoughts
Regards
Rodger
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 22:09
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Fair call saying over-braked (particularly worried about the weight!), the appeal of this conversion being that it is a tried and tested bolt together setup (ie, i can do it myself other than the suspension work). Fabricating a caliper mount is beyond my means i'm afraid.
What sort of work was involved to fit the ra60 rotor/hub to the ra23/28 strut? Was the only extra work involved being the caliper bracketry? Or does stuff need to be machined down, etc?
Do you have any pics of how the mounts for the caliper looks? Have you had the setup on an engineered road car?
Cheers for the measurement, appreciated. I think however that given how dodgy the way my spring sits now is, and that i'd rather know what the hell i'm working with - its inevitable that i'll be changing the strut also.
In an ideal world i would use my s4 calipers, but ahh well..
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Mon, 10 October 2005 22:40
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Interesting quote from another thread, i forget who made it, i'm sorry - now i can't find the thread - its the fellow with a black (ra23?) in his avatar buzzing about in a carpark/skidpan
Quote: | I have spoken about the weight of the Corona/Pug/Hilux combo in the past and it cheezes me a little to still hear people *complain* about it.....
So, I got some facts.
I weighted my original RA23 stock std struts complete as soon as they came off my car, and got 19kg on the bathroom scales.
I weighted the complete Pug/RT132/LN106 combo (with new Koni shocks and Lovells springs) just before they got bolted back in, and I got 21kg, a whole 2kg increase. (10.5%).
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Interesting.. If all switching setups so i use a different setup is going to do is save me a 2kg tops.. Then its not worth the extra hassle surely, my car is no perfection machine..
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Location: Sydney
Registered: November 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Tue, 11 October 2005 08:00
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if u have ta22 struts u can use commodore (girlock) calipers and pintara discs, u jsut need a custom mouting bracket made up, megs has this setup on his car and in a few weeks me and him will be pulling his struts apart so i can make a template out of his mount for the caliper.
ill provide templates for anyone who wants them or can get u a set of plates made up when i do mine
cheers
Dom
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Location: Strathfield / Sydney
Registered: July 2003
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Tue, 11 October 2005 08:06
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What sort of cost would be be talking for the plates?
I'm thinking that it would be a good idea to get rid of the struts while i can.. I don't trust most of the work thats been done on my car, and the corona items are apparently significantly stronger.
That said, i wouldn't rule out an upgrade to the existing strut, depending on if the cost made it worthwhile.
What are the specs of the commodore calipers?
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I Supported Toymods
Location: Glenmore Park, NSW
Registered: March 2004
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Re: Help identify my struts + possible brake upgrades! Pics (Warning 56kers!)
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Wed, 12 October 2005 01:04
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lemme know when you do the brackets... id be keen to know where it will be done for my own later down the track.
Cheers
Nathan
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