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domasik
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4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 03:31 Go to next message
http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=getfile&id=15213

are these valve stem seals?

Stuart might be able to help me with my next question.

Can i use these with 3k valves inside a 3k head on a 4k block (if that makes sense)

I was going to use the 4K valves from the head that came off the 4K block but the 3K valves on the bigport head i have are in alot better condition.

thanks

BTW these came with a VRS gasket kit i purchased off ebay.

Im also going to be using dual valve springs with this setup too
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KE70MAN
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 03:50 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sorry mate
cant help ya

carl
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 03:55 Go to previous messageGo to next message
worlds most useless post Rolling Eyes

but THANKS FOR CARING Heart
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 04:23 Go to previous messageGo to next message
KE70MAN wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 13:50

sorry mate
cant help ya

carl

carl, just a tip, for the new forums, if you post things like this, they will be deleted.




yup, they look like normal nitrile valve stem seals.

hmmmm there are a few factors at play here.
1). do your valve guides have a groove to hold these on?? (if you have changed them, they probably will)
2) how much lift are you planning to run.. the problem with 3K valves (i am assuming they are double groove (ie BP)? if not ignore the folowing) with 2 grooves, is that the retainer is alot taller, and you are limited to how much lift you can run (less than 400thou) and my not give you enough space to fit the seal.
With the normal retainers, even high lift cams get a bit iffy as to whether you can run seals without damage

3) what is the inside diameter of the dual springs compared to the outside diameter of the seals?

4) what cam lift are you running (for reasons mentioned above)

5) i would suggest you dummy fit one valve with seal, and measure (accurately) how much lift you can run...then minus maybe 1mm and that is what should be safe Wink

6) ummm, get back to us when you measure things Very Happy

any chance of pics of said valves and valve guides?
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 05:45 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Quote:


hmmmm there are a few factors at play here.
1). do your valve guides have a groove to hold these on?? (if you have changed them, they probably will)
2) how much lift are you planning to run.. the problem with 3K valves (i am assuming they are double groove (ie BP)? if not ignore the folowing) with 2 grooves, is that the retainer is alot taller, and you are limited to how much lift you can run (less than 400thou) and my not give you enough space to fit the seal.
With the normal retainers, even high lift cams get a bit iffy as to whether you can run seals without damage


i actually havent removed the valves yet casue i havent got a spring compressor yet, so im not 100% sure what exactly your talking about.

Quote:


3) what is the inside diameter of the dual springs compared to the outside diameter of the seals?


the seals will fit inside the springs, theres enough room for them to move freely.

Quote:


4) what cam lift are you running (for reasons mentioned above)


only standard cam for now

Quote:


any chance of pics of said valves and valve guides?



will do ASAP
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 06:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
domasik wrote on Sun, 25 September 2005 15:45

i actually havent removed the valves yet casue i havent got a spring compressor yet, so im not 100% sure what exactly your talking about.



can you see an o-ring at the top of the valve stem?
do the valve spring retainers look the same height as the 4K ones? (i mean the inside bit where the collet/lock sits)

3K bigport and other early heads have a double groove valve stem. the bottom groove is for the collet/lock, and the top groove (more rounded) is for the o-ring, which is there instead of a valve stem seal...

standard lift now, but what will you do with the head in it's lifetime? may as well build it for th enext step while it's apart Razz

[Updated on: Sun, 25 September 2005 06:01]

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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 06:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hey stu ive got an idea. seeing as i have got a farken clue wat ur talking about ill take it all apart, take photos, and u can cirlce all the shit for me hahahaha

sorry i have a little bit of mechanical knowlegde but not alot!

but thanks for helping!
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Sun, 25 September 2005 06:30 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yah, no worries, i shoulda taken pics years ago... but didn't have a camera then.. it was a while ago Razz
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Mon, 26 September 2005 10:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
http://www.fluidzone.com/liddertown/pics/head/3K-vs-4K.jpg
http://www.fluidzone.com/liddertown/pics/head/3K-vs-4K01.jpg

http://www.fluidzone.com/liddertown/pics/head/3K-vs-4K02.jpg

this is as far as ive gotten can u help me out stu
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Mon, 26 September 2005 10:46 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ok, look here..

http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/~sford/3K-vs-4K01.jpg

this is what you are looking for.. (so i never have to draw it again Razz )

the 3K BP has a taller retainer, so can't have as much lift, can't run dual springs, and has an O-ring seal. the 4K (and normal 3K) have a thinner retainer, which can run higher lift and dual springs.
http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/~sford/k-valves.jpg
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Mon, 26 September 2005 10:53 Go to previous messageGo to next message
also notice that one set has alloy rocker towers, and the other has cast iron.. use the iron ones in preference to the alloy.
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Mon, 26 September 2005 11:54 Go to previous messageGo to next message
so at the end of the day im going to have to get myself some non toasted 4k valves and i cant use the 3k ones that are in the head?
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Mon, 26 September 2005 12:05 Go to previous messageGo to next message
that depends on how much lift you want to run.. since oyu are wanting to use dual springs.. it sounds like non-toasted 3K/4K valves could be an option..... they may not be that expensive new either... call somewhere like "sydney clutch and brake" and ask them (they specialise in head rebuilding Razz )
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 04:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stu ive found a place in thornleigh (jsut down the road from me) that do head reconditioning and im going to have to get them to put the valves in. but they said they can regrind my exsisting valves and freshen them up so i wont have to buy new ones.

which one is the alloy and which one is the cast rocker cover?

the 3k head is the one on the left BTW.

thanks
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 04:39 Go to previous messageGo to next message
alloy are 3mm taller and silvery.. the cast ones are rpugher, shorter and look darker.

if you increase valve lift, get the rocker towers machined down by the increase over stock valve lift....
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 08:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
stu, i took the head down to the head reco place and they put one of the springs in for me and it works sweet, and i can even use stem seals as well i jsut dont use the cap or the o ring

20 bucks to do it all and i took the compressor back to auto one and got a refund
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 08:19 Go to previous messageGo to next message
domasik wrote on Fri, 14 October 2005 18:17

stu, i took the head down to the head reco place and they put one of the springs in for me and it works sweet, and i can even use stem seals as well i jsut dont use the cap or the o ring

20 bucks to do it all and i took the compressor back to auto one and got a refund


you mean for standard lift? iirc there is about 0.5-1mm clearance to the seal lip with the 3K retainers at NORMAL LIFT..

but what about increased lift?

did you check the clearance with the valve compressed to maximum lift?
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 09:27 Go to previous messageGo to next message
the rocker arm doesnt hit the retainer tho does it?

anyway im pretty sure without the cap the retainer sits at the same level as the cap would becasue of the dual springs and the collet sits on the 2nd groove at the end of the valve.
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Fri, 14 October 2005 09:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
domasik wrote on Fri, 14 October 2005 19:27

the rocker arm doesnt hit the retainer tho does it?

anyway im pretty sure without the cap the retainer sits at the same level as the cap would becasue of the dual springs and the collet sits on the 2nd groove at the end of the valve.


dude, you have seriously lost me.. take a pic of how you have installed it..

are you saying you are using the 4K retainer, and the valve lock is in the O-ring groove?

eeeeeeeek!!!!!!!!! 1111one11111
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domasik
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Re: 4K Help, what are these? Wed, 19 October 2005 00:06 Go to previous message
ill take a photo today. the 3k and 4k retainers are actually the same its just the extra bit on the 3k under the retainer (valve lock?) has been removed becasue of the internal spring sits into the second deeper part of the retainer.

casue the valves havent been changed still running the same amount of lift ect so the standard rocker arms will be used.

the only thing is becasue the end of the valve on the 3k valves has 2 groves, one of the o ring and the other for the collets he said its not as strong and wouldnt be ideal in a RACE ENGINE but would be fine for the street. having said that this guys got pretty friggin high standards i asked if itd break at 9000rpm and he said not likely which is good casue the engine wont even rev that high.
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