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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 03:55
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I just bort a ke20 on the weekend, its a 1973, with a 3k in it with a 5 speed behind it and it came with a 5k in bits.
what i want to know is what upgrades people do to them, now i dont want to spend heaps and heaps of money on it like turning it in to a show car or a race car.
i want to know upgrades like the brakes(but i want to keep the old stud patern) engines, gearboxs, diff, interior, exterior and stuff like that 
the car was originally an auto so will that change any thing, is the diff different.
with the engine i want to stay with the carbys for now so i can do most of the work my self. should i use the 5k and work that? i was thinging of using the 5k block with a 3k BP head (big port).
with the 5k block it has a 4k crank  why would it have it? and one queation with the 3k BP head are the ports the only difference? and want are the sizes of them?
I HOPE YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHAT I HAVE SAID.
[Updated on: Thu, 20 October 2005 11:35]
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 04:08
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I'd just like to say "YOU MOTHER FUCKER" 
That's a god damn winner, I want i want i want
Take care of the angel and dont make any rash decision's
Using 4k crank in 5k block, its basically up'd the displacment a little, 5k is 1100cc, 4k is 1300cc(i'm pretty sure)
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 04:21
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5K is ~1500cc
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 05:03
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I've always had a soft spot for that shape.
I secretly wish toyota would re-make it, still in RWD with the 1.3 from the starlet/echo in it. Something like a 3age 
Imagine that shape with a more modern interior, better suspension design, better economy, better power, etc with a warranty and ~10000$AU (un-optioned).
I swear they'd sell like hotcakes to everyone from grandma's to ricers.
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 05:27
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sound like a plan  or we could hand make them with all the good shit 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 05:35
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do this to it
13BT on NOS
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 05:59
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| beige_bandit wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 14:08 |
Using 4k crank in 5k block, its basically up'd the displacment a little, 5k is 1100cc, 4k is 1300cc(i'm pretty sure)
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where the fuck did you pull that bullshit from?
please do not post like this in future.
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 06:04
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I'm sorry i stand INCORRECT 
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 06:05
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| Quote: |
where the fuck did you pull that bullshit from?
please do not post in the tech section in future.
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Fiksed
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 06:05
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| hurricane wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 13:55 |
I just BOUGHT a ke20 on the weekend, its a 1973, with a 3k in it with a 5 speed behind it and it came with a 5k in bits.
what i want to know is what upgrades people do to them, now i dont want to spend heaps and heaps of money on it like turning it in to a show car or a race car.
i want to know upgrades like the brakes(but i want to keep the old stud patern) engines, gearboxs, diff, interior, exterior and stuff like that
the car was originally an auto so will that change any thing, is the diff different.
with the engine i want to stay with the carbys for now so i can do most of the work my self. should i use the 5k and work that? i was thinging of using the 5k block with a 3k BP head (big port).
with the 5k block it has a 4k crank why would it have it? and one queation with the 3k BP head are the ports the only difference? and want are the sizes of them?
I HOPE YOU CAN UNDER STAND IT.
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you mean put stands under it?
please search for relevant upgrades, we have beeen collectively posting about it for years. also look for "toms corolla page" for TE27 info.
brakes, 10% larger, KE30/KE70 disc and caliper. search.
check if the diff is different  borg warner or banjo diff? spin the wheeels and count the ratio.
5K yes, 3K bigport head no. unless you rebuild 5K with flat top pistons (it has dished pistons originally)
5K block DOES HAVE 4K crank. it is even stamped as such.
4K = 1300 = 75mm bore, 73mm stroke
5K = 1500 = 80.5mm bore, 73mm stroke
7K = 1800 = 80.5mm bore, 87.5mm stroke???
3K BP. intake ports only. and they have the fucked valve retainer setup (cannot run much more lift) and o-ring. ie double groove valves.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 06:42
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You're right , i wont post here anymore
Hurricane, nice fucking wheel's man, hope your life together
is absolute bliss
Ke382Tg, you can derelict my balls
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 11:58
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thanks for the help. i did try searching for the stuff i was looking for but found nothing of real help.
just one other question, i was thinking, rather than doing work to the 5k i was thinking of putting something like a 2TG in it. anyone no if it is hard to do.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 16:13
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| hurricane wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 21:58 |
thanks for the help. i did try searching for the stuff i was looking for but found nothing of real help.
just one other question, i was thinking, rather than doing work to the 5k i was thinking of putting something like a 2TG in it. anyone no if it is hard to do.
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2TG = TE27..
simlarr to Jonny from tassie's mod from KE3X to TE3X.
2TG is better than 5K for sure.
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Thu, 20 October 2005 23:03
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ok thanks
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On Probation
Location:
launceston tas
Registered:
March 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Fri, 21 October 2005 07:37
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yeah i would go a 2tg. and what size tires has that got the look huge!
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Fri, 21 October 2005 09:38
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the tyres on it are 215/50/13. ive a so go a 310/60/13 but it does not even come close to fitting in.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Fri, 21 October 2005 09:45
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you might want to hink about going down in size to 185's
how wide are the rims? the tyres look awfully funny with the sidewalls pointing in 
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sat, 22 October 2005 03:36
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| hurricane wrote on Sat, 22 October 2005 10:02 |
the rims are 6.5 wide, and the tyres dont really point in that mutch, i think it is just how it looks in the picture.
i was thinking of changeing the tyre size to 205/55/13 and then putting the 215s on my TA22 cos it has 7 inch wide steel rims.
bye the may does anyone know if you can get 13 inch steel rims that have the same PCD as a KE20.
one other thing i think i have a 3k BP head but it has the same valve retainer setup as the 5K, it also has smaller exhaust port than the 5K. Im pritty shore that it is a 3k BP head because it has a bigger inlet manifold also.
what is the bore and stroke of the 3K.
and has any one put a carby off a datsun 200b on to a 3k inlet manifold, i found out it fits straght on.
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ahh k. maybe just tyre design... if i were you (but i'm not), i would get the stickiest tyres i could afford in a 185 size.. the car is just not heavy enough to use the wider tyres and you will sometimes lose grip... for example, my current car weighs almost TWICE a KE20.. but only has 215 tyres!!!! and it grips very well.
185/55 or 185/60.. whaever matches the original tyres size (althought that may not work.) also remember there are 3 different speedo gearings, 5/19 (ke10), 6/20 (ke20/30?)and 6/21 (KE70) so you can adjust speedo or different diff and tyres
stel 13" = mazda 808 or similar. i had them on the KE15. they may only be a 5 or 5.5" rim tho. many early mazdas have same PCD, but offset of RX7 is a little much i think..
3K BP has a welch plug at back of head and 30mm diameter intake ports. 5K may well have larger intake and exhaust, i have not played with them myself. a friend opened his intakes to bigger than 30mm on his 5K tho. but afaik, the valves are still same size soo.... maybe they are the limiting factor.
can you take pics of both valve setups? and of ports with a ruler next to them.. and of th rear of the head (plate/welch plug)
75x67? check matti's site
what are the choke sizes of the datto carbs? what are the butterfly sizes?
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sat, 22 October 2005 11:22
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cool thanks for the info. i pritty shore that the 3k head had the welch plug at the end.
ill take the pics and get the sizes for you and post them up tomorrow.
oh were do i find matti's site what is it called
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sat, 22 October 2005 11:51
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google for "automotive main page mainly toyota"
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sat, 22 October 2005 13:36
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that car is pure sex.. lower it a little and look even better, as for engines and stuff i dunno anything about the older engines so i wont even try
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sun, 23 October 2005 05:20
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first, your 3K head doesn't have 3K bigport valves.
second, a 5K has a smaller combustion chamber than a 3K.
3K is around 33mls and 5K around 16mls.
it might be that the 5K head is actually a 4K head with porting done?
measure the combustion chamber volumes and that will tell you quite a lot.
4K and 5K dished piston motors have the same combustion chamber, just different piston dish.
does the 5K have dished pistons atm?
the "5K" head also loks to have been shaved, by looking at the screwdriver slots for lifting it from the block....
methinks the 5K head is a 4K head that has been ported.
mealsothinks the 3K head has been converted to use either normal 3K or 4K valves....
methinks your next step is to measure the combustion chamber vlume (accurate to minimum of 1ml ) and then we go from there.
oh, and check if 5K pistons are dished.
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sun, 23 October 2005 05:21
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unless of course the 3K head is actually a K head in which case it will have combustion chamber volume of around 30 mls
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:51
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with the 3k BP head what are the differ between the valves, are thay bigger?
the ports on both heads look like there ports were cast to the size not gringed? i will clean both heads right up and see.
with messuring the chamber do i just use a syringe?
the 5K pistion are dished, do you want pics.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sun, 23 October 2005 14:30
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in the pictures i posted recently in another thread, the 3K bigports have two grooves at the top, a different shape retainer, and an o-ring.
the valve diameters are the same from K thru 5K afaik.
nope, if you have 5K dished pistons, you need a head to match, since the 5K combustion chamber is abotu HALF the volume of the other heads
umm.. syringe is not really accurate enough, but should be enough to tell you if it is closer to 16 or 30mls perhaps..
start with that.
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Sun, 23 October 2005 23:15
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so with the 3k head do you think it is a 3k head with the valve set-up changed?
is that good or bad if it has been changed?
also one other thing, with the 3k head the inlet maniflod is bigger also.
with is datto carby the choke size is/
choke size/ventury
Primary= 24mm
Secondary= 30mm
butterflys
Primary= 30mm
Secondary= 34mm
hear are some pics the first is how mutch need to be takin out the match the butter flyes and the second is the datto carby on the 5k/4k inlet mani.
ive got more pics if you need.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 01:19
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| hurricane wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 09:15 |
so with the 3k head do you think it is a 3k head with the valve set-up changed?
is that good or bad if it has been changed?
also one other thing, with the 3k head the inlet maniflod is bigger also.
with is datto carby the choke size is/
choke size/ventury
Primary= 24mm
Secondary= 30mm
butterflys
Primary= 30mm
Secondary= 34mm
hear are some pics the first is how mutch need to be takin out the match the butter flyes and the second is the datto carby on the 5k/4k inlet mani.
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good that valves are changed. measn you can run much more lift.
the exit of the manifold is bigger... but does that continue up the runner to the plenum below the carb? all of my manifolds close down after a couple of inches.. although that 5K manifold looks a little bigger.... wanna measure inside and se what it restricts to?
sound slike it should be a good carb! the webber i have is 34/34, 24/27....
whereas the famous 32/36 has 26/27 chokes.. too big
the datto carb sounds like it is sized well.. give it a try
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 03:02
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just measure the height and width of the manifold runners in as far as you can... (trick, get wire, bend to a Tee shape, then push in and see how far it goes in...)
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 04:12
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| hurricane wrote on Thu, 20 October 2005 16:55 |
I just bort a ke20 on the weekend, its a 1973, with a 3k in it with a 5 speed behind it and it came with a 5k in bits.
what i want to know is what upgrades people do to them, now i dont want to spend heaps and heaps of money on it like turning it in to a show car or a race car.
i want to know upgrades like the brakes(but i want to keep the old stud patern) engines, gearboxs, diff, interior, exterior and stuff like that
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D A M M thats tidy Very nice purchase indeed
This may help with ideas for your upgrades, the list of MODS is for a KE25 I own, currently has a blue top 4AGE in it however this is about to be replaced with a 4AGZE with a front mount.
Rebuilt RWD 4age with slightly raised compression, oversize pistons with new bearings/rings approx 5,000km ago
4-2-1 extractors to about 2¼ mandrel bent exhaust.
Aftermarket cams
Polished cam covers
Polished oil/air separator
new clutch about 30,000km ago
T50 gearbox
Hilux drive shaft
Celica diff
Front and rear sway bars
Adjustable height coilovers front
Stiffened springs and shocks with lowering blocks rear
Strut brace front
Cressida ventilated breaks front
14” minilite mags with 195/60/14 tyres
Oil temp, oil level and voltage gauges built into dash
Pics of engine bay etc can be found here
http://www.villagephotos.com/pubbrowse.asp?start=0 &selected=1340121
And like yourself I hope to pick up a bit of info from here too
[Updated on: Mon, 24 October 2005 04:13]
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 04:33
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i must say your car dosnt look to bad ether so what does it cost to put a 4AGE into one?
with the brakes and the diff what PCD are you using?
will cressida brakes fit into my 13inch rims?
did the diff have to be cut down?
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 06:05
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Cheers
I havent done the work myself just in the right place at the right time
However I can tell you that the diff dose not appear to have been modified in anyway, the griveshaft was shortened and re-balanced.
Not sure on the PCD but can find out and let you know if you like.
Fitting 13inch rims over the cressida brakes might be a bit of a tight fit judging by the room left on mine running the 14inch minilites.
On the cost front to get a 4AGE in, well I guess it all depends on who dose the work and what you can pick the parts up for really.
you would need, engine, loom, mounts, gearbox (T50) & bellhousing, you could stay with a manual box that sits behind a 5K etc however it wouldnt last that long and you'd be sick of rebuilding it everytime it let go.
Scan the parts for sale etc and you'll get a rough idea on cost of parts, there is a saying when upgrading engine's that once you have your budget, double it and you'll still need a bit more
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 06:54
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NZKE25 ill see what i can find, and ill messure the diff in the TA22 in see what the size is compaired to the KE20.
oldcorollas I got the sizes,
3K
Top were carby goes is , 28mm for both
Inlet Maniflod Runners, Width= 31mm, Hight= 33mm and it tappers back to 29mm all the way to below carby.
5K
Top were carbys goes, 32mm and 28mm.
Inlet Maniflod Runners, Width= 29mm, Hight= 27mm and it goes to 27mm all the way back to below carby.
IVE MARKED ON THE PICS WERE THE 3K TAPPERS BACK TO THE SMALLER SIZE.
IVE ALSO CLEANED UP THE 3K AND 5K HEADS, IT LOOKS LIKE THE PORT WERE ALL CAST TO SIZE NOT GRINDED TO THE SIZE. IT IS THE SAME WITH THE INLET RUNNERS AS WELL.
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 07:40
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before owning my current KE25 I did briefly own another which was runing the following
5K Block
Stage 3 CAM
3K Head, ported & polished with double over sized valve springs
Twin 45mm Webber Sidedrafts
Extractors
It was estimated at a compression ratio of roughly 11/12 - 1 was a very quick car for the above setup and one of the great benefits of this type of setup over say a 4AGE etc is its simplicity, sure it sucked a heap of gas but if anything was to ever break on a setup like this its realitively cheap in comppared to that of a 4AGE setup to replace/repair.
So it all comes down to power wanted V's $$'s available, tis a fine line we walk and normally we fall over the $$'s side more than often
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 12:32
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so what pistions were you running in the 5k block, because i was told that you couldnt run the 3k heads with the 5k pition because there were dished, or where you running flat top pistions
and i know what you mean about it been cheaper, thats y i want to stick with running a carby (or two). at the moment i might make some thing out of the 5k and the 3k, and then i would like to put some thing like a 2TG in to it.
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Mon, 24 October 2005 20:39
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The other KE25 to start with it was running a 3K block with the 3K head (modified) and was running like a piece of chite, ran a compression test and found it had dropped number 4, found a 5K block off the back of a truck and did a straight swap, the only thing swapped over internally from the 3K to the 5K was the CAM, everything else was stock.
I don’t have digital pics of the engine swap from the 3K to the 5K as it was a few years ago, however off the top of my head the pistons in the 5K were the dished type. I’ll have a hunt around as I do have pics of the swap somewhere that I can scan if I can find them.
Having the twin Webbers on was a bit of a mission to set-up and then adjust however were much worth the effort, took a number of people by surprise off the line
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Tue, 25 October 2005 12:54
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3K combustion chamber = 33mls
5K dish = 16/17mls (lets say 17)
head gasket = approx 3 mls
total = 53mls
5K = 1500/4 = 375mls
total swept = 375 + 53 = 428mls
428/53 = 8.08
maybe not so bad,, but it certainly is not good
most ppl just assume that all the pistons are the same and that 3K will increase CR..
now if you had flat top pistons, you would get 11.4:1 but not if you have dished pistons
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Tue, 25 October 2005 19:49
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| hurricane wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 00:56 |
so do you recon if i put the 3k head onto the 5k block and didnt change the pitions over would it still run ok?
i was told that the 3k heads and the 5k heads had different combustion chamber sizes, the 5k one i think were smaller.
OLDCAROLLS said something below, hace a look
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the 5K block we upgraded to came straight out of a liteace van and was thrown straight in to the KE25, with the change over of the CAM and the head. I am pretty sure I know where the pics of the engine swap are and they should confirm flat or dished type pistons, this was done a few years ago now so the exact details are a litte blury at the mo
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Tue, 25 October 2005 22:34
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so i gess shaving the head wouldnt really do mutch to bring the Comprestion ratio up then do you think i sould just get some flat top pistions, or get a 5k head?
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Location:
Wellington, NZ
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Tue, 25 October 2005 22:54
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| hurricane wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 11:34 |
so i gess shaving the head wouldnt really do mutch to bring the Comprestion ratio up then do you think i sould just get some flat top pistions, or get a 5k head?
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The 3K head we used on the 5K block had a fair bit of weight reduction done to it before it landed on my lap and with using a standard gasket set it was estimated at 11/12 - 1 compression ratio by a mate of mine who has been around this stuff all his life.
If I had to rebuild this again then I would go the 5K block, 3K head ported & polished with the oversized valve springs and the Webber side drafts, proved to be a very tidy little set up and kept quite a few honest too
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Wed, 26 October 2005 03:55
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every mm of head shaved off = 4.5mls of combustion chamber volume.
you would need to shave a MINIMUM of about 3.8-4mm off the head to get the compression back up to 11:1
i had a head that had 3mm taken off..... i would be welding up the water jacket holes at that time (as per the TOSCO manual and the 1300 racing guys)
for my head i took off 1.2mm, but i also removed a fair bit of combustion chamber as well.. deshrouding and such.. (pics on my page)
if you pretend the pistons aren't dished, you do get 11.4:1, but you MUST take into account the combustion chamber volume.
is just a matter of volumes...
I'd be keen to see your piccies (just cos ) and also to see if pistons are flat... not saying your mate was wrong.. just it doesn't add up to what i know.. but i am always keen to learn
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: UPGRADES FOR THE MIGHTY KE20
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Wed, 26 October 2005 13:10
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i think you had bettr measure the combustion chamber volumes of the heads you do have.. maybe you have two 5K heads there
the only way to work out how much to take off the head is to measure the combustion chamber volume.
well... if you don't want to change valve springs... then you are limited to maybe 6500-7000rpm.
if you go higher lift, you should shave down rocker posts, although i am not sure how that work with the hydraulic lifters..
you should also check that reducing base circle of cam will not affect lifters..
i would usually suggets more lift and then choose a duration to suit, but if you don't want to change anything else, it kinda limits things..
there should be no confusion.
measure the volume of the dish in the piston.
measure the volume of the combustion chambers.
add the volume of the head gasket (typically 0.8mm thick)
work otu compression ratio.
longer overlap cam requires more compression etc etc
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