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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 00:20
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Hi,
I just saw my brother in-laws's "Classic Crashes at Bathurst" DVD.
Some nice stacks in there, but what I really miss was the mixed classes.
It was so good to see the Corollas, BMWs, Mercs and even the Volvo going around the track. They also had footage of the Celica in the pitts when they were hacking open the boot with an axe so they could get it open to fill the car with petrol.
One shot of the cars goin up to the Elbow I saw ayellow Civic!!! And there were shots of the Nissans and Mazdas and all sorts of other cars.
I sorely miss the variety and mixed classes and different cars of the old Bathurst. Yeah, I still watch the race each year and I think it's one of the best races in the world, but it's not a patch on what it used to be.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
April 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 00:41
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i totally agree, just seeing the BA's and VZ's gets boring...
i don't know too much about the history of the race but i don't think they should've banned skylines...Holden and Ford are just afraid of all the turbo cars.
or maybe Ford should enter the F6 Typhoon alongside its V8's...i'd definitely watch that.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 01:57
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I have a history of Bathurst box set and an AE82 FX GT gets hammered lol. 
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Location:
Tassie
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 05:55
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why did they get banned ?
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Location:
Land of Oz
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 06:31
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Hi,
Being cynical I'd say they were banned 'cos they weren't (the different classes) good for the Australian motor industry.
You had little 4-banger naturally aspirated Jap cars like the Celica and the Corolla running in the top 20 - maybe top ten one year (though I'm not sure) against massive Aussie V8 muscle.
Add to that Godzilla which left everyone behind.
So, a change of rules means that anything that isn't a push-rod V8 powered vehicle is not allowed to enter. Considering that the rest of the world, bar the USA, now makes more efficient and powerful V8 engines (for their size) which use OHC, I can't see anyone else getting a look in.
Sure, I bet there were those drivers that complained about slower cars on the track (is Suzuki Swifts etc), but that was part of the fun of the race and these little Swifts moved pretty fast and were locked into their own class race which made it exciting. And, even some of the Fords and Holdens from the low-budget teams weren't very quick and were lapped and slowing down faster cars within a small number of laps.
Ulitmately, the bogan factor won the day. Mind you, eventually (it won't happen overnight but it will happen) when Holden and Ford drag themselves out of the 1960s and start to use modern OHC engines, then it will be very interesting to see what other manufacturers (who already make these engines) will decide to enter Bathurst.
seeyuzz
river
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Location:
Bottom of the hill, Sydney
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 08:11
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The days of the mixed classes at bathurst was when it was a production car race. I remember seeing one of the "history of Bathurst" videos and you see in one of the late 60's races a phase 1 or 2 falcon overtake a HB torana on conrod like it was standing still. Great stuff to watch as it was all the battles for class wins that made it interesting.
Even today with the V8 supercars you get slower drivers holding up the front runners.
The problem was the change in categories from production cars to group c then group a (and any other categories they went through) and then the issue of TV rights that meant we only see falcons and commodores now.
Still it is the greatest race in the world and I love parking my arse in front of the telly for a day to watch the drama unfold. It's great stuff  .
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 11:21
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before we say "they did it cause the hodend and fords got whooped"
they did it for legit reasons
read this, its a detailed report of the entire history of GTR racing in aus
http://www.jsmotorsport.com/ObakemonoDownunder.pdf
oh and lets not forget that the GTR's cheated, as did the DR30's and the Bluebird
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 14:35
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| high_card_ace wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 08:41 |
i totally agree, just seeing the BA's and VZ's gets boring...
i don't know too much about the history of the race but i don't think they should've banned skylines...Holden and Ford are just afraid of all the turbo cars.
or maybe Ford should enter the F6 Typhoon alongside its V8's...i'd definitely watch that.
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No Holden and Ford aren't afraid of turbo cars, infact it wasn't even Holden and Ford who determined the category, it was AVESCO. Group A was fading away, no one was watching the racing and the TV rights were worthless because no one watched the sport. I remember going to a round of the championship here in Perth, there were 8 cars on the grid !!
Along comes AVESCO and decides that people will watch the sport if they could identify the cars racing (anyone remember the 2 litre class based on the BTCC? cars that weren't sold here), so the class was based on V8 power (5 litre as thats what both Holden and Ford produced at the time), rear wheel drive, 4 doors and must be Australian made.
Today more people watch the V8 Supercars than ever before, infact it's the 3rd most watched sport in Australia behind the Cricket and AFL, the TV rights are heavily contested, each round is packed with spectators, and next year we'll see 3 rounds overseas.
To change this format because a tiny percentage of people want to see turbo cars race is crazy.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 15:07
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Nobody watched 'cuz even after 2 rules changes (specificaly to slow the R32s down), the R32s where dominating the field! It gets boring when you know which team is gonna win race after race... the one that spends the most on their R32s.
It's all sensationalised. Half the people who watch it don't know a conrod from a plenum. They don't give a shit about cars, they just like watching the pretty colours go 'round the screen.
I see a lot of people saying it's all about the money, and they made the right choice... So we're all slaves to money now huh? Way to defend them turning you into a money making asset, rather than a person.
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Location:
Eskilstuna, Sweden
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 15:21
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| Shraka wrote on Mon, 17 October 2005 01:07 |
Way to defend them turning you into a money making asset, rather than a person.
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Way of the world...........
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 22:48
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| Mr DOHC wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 19:21 |
oh and lets not forget that the GTR's cheated, as did the DR30's and the Bluebird
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How were they cheating??
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 22:51
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They had tarbo's, well the Sierra cheated genuinely using dodgy fuel ie high octane.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Sun, 16 October 2005 23:15
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 17 October 2005 06:51 |
They had tarbo's, well the Sierra cheated genuinely using dodgy fuel ie high octane.
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WTF???
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 00:29
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a few years back, Zoom did articles on the freg gibson motorsport race cars
issue 53 had he DR30
had a 640x320x85 FMIC, stock was smaller than a stcok silvia, how'd that get homologated??
a spare line coming off the wastegate diaphragm, went thru the firewall, to a hidden boost controller
2 headlight switches, the 2nd was a brake balancer
issue 55 has the bluebird
they had no intercooler from factory, but the race car had one
they had a fully fabricated IRS setup, which was modelled on the euro spec bluebird, which apparently had IRS, and
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the rules were very unclear in this area, and it helped that the homologation papares were in japanese.
there is a quote that sums it up after the record breaking lap at Bathurst in 1984 from a journo called Graham Howard, talking to Nissan Motorsport boss Howard Marsden.
Howard to Marsden: "not bad for a semi trailing arm set-up"
Marsden: "well, its not exactly semi trailing arm"
Howard: "can i have a look"
Marsden: "no"
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if u pulled the headlight switch, it turned the headlights on, but if u turn in, it adjusted the brake bias
unfortunately i cant fond the GTR issue
i'm sure someone will have a copy and post the findings
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 00:45
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I doubt most of the commodores we're 100% legit too, and as for the intercooler debate why wouldn't they be able to modify them, how is a turbo car gonna last being caned round a track with a tiny intercooler.
I know the only reason the VN group A had the 6 speed box was allow it to be used for group A.
I was not aware of any problems with the GTR's, though i am aware that to slow them down they cut them back from 450kw to around 350kw and also added extra weight.
The texaco Cosworth's gave brocky a bathurst win when they ran Illegal octane fuel and he came third, the sierras ran one-two.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 00:49
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 17 October 2005 10:45 |
I doubt most of the commodores we're 100% legit too, and as for the intercooler debate why wouldn't they be able to modify them, how is a turbo car gonna last being caned round a track with a tiny intercooler.
I know the only reason the VN group A had the 6 speed box was allow it to be used for group A.
I was not aware of any problems with the GTR's, though i am aware that to slow them down they cut them back from 450kw to around 350kw and also added extra weight.
The texaco Cosworth's gave brocky a bathurst win when they ran Illegal octane fuel and he came third, the sierras ran one-two.
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they cant change that much cause of homologation rules,
thats why holden have the VN SS GRP A a 6 speed, so it was legal, nissan just said fuck u to the rules, lets write everything in jap so no one can read it and we can cheat
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 00:55
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Was the homogolation rules also the reason that the VL and VN group A's ran twin throttle bodies, i know they use 4 now were they only using twin throttle body setups on the V8's back then?
I understand what your getting at but upgrading an intercooler for a race car imo is not just a performance mod but whats the point of having a car that'll produce power but'll blow up 3 laps into a race.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 01:13
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i beleive they only used twins back then
but, why did the XA's and all that used twin webers
that wasnt factory
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 15:10
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| Corona RT142 wrote on Mon, 17 October 2005 08:55 |
Was the homogolation rules also the reason that the VL and VN group A's ran twin throttle bodies, i know they use 4 now were they only using twin throttle body setups on the V8's back then?
I understand what your getting at but upgrading an intercooler for a race car imo is not just a performance mod but whats the point of having a car that'll produce power but'll blow up 3 laps into a race.
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Group A homogolation rules stated that 500 cars had to be produced before they could race in the series, hence the reason the VL and VN Group A's were so different to the standard Commodores (the standard VL V8 didn't come out with a manual option or with fuel injection). Shit knows how the Seirra's got around this, none were imported into Australia through Ford. There were 100 R32 GTR's imported by Nissan Australia back in 1990 at $100,000 each !!
The XA's ran under Group C rules, I'm not full bottle on them.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Mon, 17 October 2005 15:16
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| Shraka wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 23:07 |
I see a lot of people saying it's all about the money, and they made the right choice... So we're all slaves to money now huh? Way to defend them turning you into a money making asset, rather than a person.
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Good idea, lets run a business/venture at a loss and see how far we go...not as far as if it was making money.
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Location:
Toowoomba, QLD
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Wed, 19 October 2005 08:55
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To answer a few of the questions: After 1986 the intercooler size in Group A was free, so you could put anything in there you liked. Hence the statement in Zoom is wrong, you should see the size of the intercoolers in the Volvos etc. Also, driver adjustable brake bias was legal in Group A, so that was also OK, I don't know why they used the headlight switch, my Supra has a great big knob with 'Bias Front Rear" signs. In Group C it was illegal, hence the cheating by hiding the knob under the rear seat in one Torana I have seen. The Bluebird adjustable boost control was illegal, but they never got caught!
In early Group C you could change the carby, but not the number of venturis, hence a Holden or Ford which had a 4 barrel could run 2 Webers, and why the early XU-1s ran triple webers but only used 1 choke in each. Later, you could run anything or as many as you wanted, but you always had to run the original inlet manifold with no modifications.
How did they cheat? I don't know about the Gibson cars, you would have to ask Terry. Dick Johnson was actually disqualified for the fuel being too low octane - figure that out. As far as some other Group A cars go, I have seen roll cages used as fuel tanks and oil tanks, bladder fuel tanks which they put bricks on when CAMS did their size inspections, then with the bricks off you get another 20 litres,telemetry which allowed the pit crew to adjust engine mixture, metal bumper supports moulded in fibreglass complete with spot weld marks, offset ground crankshafts for larger capacity, modified front crossmembers to sit engines lower, and even an alternator mounting bracket which was supposed to be cast iron made from aluminium. Not saying which of these is on the Supra.......
Notice the lovely Supra wrapped up in a ball on the cover of the Crashes video, and on the back? Luckily, no video exists of that 86 Bathurst crash.
John A
ART Racing
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Location:
Rockhampton QLD
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Wed, 19 October 2005 11:28
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It would be nice if toyota brought in a 1UZ powered Altezza for bathurst  .
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Wed, 19 October 2005 11:37
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the dr30s also used to have a fire extinguisher in the engine bay, which was pretty useful as a waterspray to keep intercooler temperatures down
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Wed, 19 October 2005 13:29
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I'm pretty sure the fire extinguisher thing didn't actually break the rules... and they left it as CO2 and used that to cool the intake piping.
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I Supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Wed, 19 October 2005 13:30
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It just wasn't what the officials had in mind when they created the rule.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Thu, 20 October 2005 03:55
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| Jeepers wrote on Tue, 18 October 2005 01:16 |
| Shraka wrote on Sun, 16 October 2005 23:07 |
I see a lot of people saying it's all about the money, and they made the right choice... So we're all slaves to money now huh? Way to defend them turning you into a money making asset, rather than a person.
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Good idea, lets run a business/venture at a loss and see how far we go...not as far as if it was making money.
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How capitalist of you. *shakes head*
I'm not just a money making asset for a company to exploit. I'm a person.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Thu, 20 October 2005 03:58
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A spoontah rolled onto its roof one year didn't it?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Thu, 20 October 2005 05:42
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I'd like to see a revival of this kinda racing.  Stock cars!
It'd be cool to see these kinds of rules:
300 cars sold to public that are exactly like the track car. Only modifications allowed are removal of air con unit + airbags + seats, addition of roll cage + racing seat + racing harness, and use of racing tyres.
Then a further 1000 cars produced which have to be within 20hp of the track car with the same engine, and have similar spring rates, ride heights etc.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2002
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Thu, 20 October 2005 06:16
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would be nice one year if they got out all the cars from the 70's and 80's and had a 20 lap race round bathurst ont he saturday as a demo
that would make ppl stand up
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Location:
Toowoomba, QLD
Registered:
January 2005
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Re: Bathurst 1000 Car Crashes
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Thu, 20 October 2005 08:31
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"would be nice one year if they got out all the cars from the 70's and 80's and had a 20 lap race round bathurst ont he saturday as a demo"
We are aiming for that now - The Group C and A Touring Cars have been offered a race at Bathurst in 2007, as well as a small series, supporting existing categories such as the Group Ns. Problem is we have to come up with 30 cars for the races, and at present we are struggling to get 20. The increase in muscle car values has driven the price of the real Group C and A cars up so much that collectors rather than racers are buying them.
We should have a good turn out at the Muscle Car event at Eastern Creek in 2 weeks - not many Toyotas, I will have my Group C Isuzu there as the Supra is still being restored, but there should be some Corollas and Celicas racing.
JA
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