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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 08:12
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i was just wondering if anyone has looked into using straight ethanol fuel to run a turbo eninge? IM thinking of making my own ethanol to power my st163.5. Any thoughts on any issues ppl?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 08:22
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| billmchenry wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:12 |
i was just wondering if anyone has looked into using straight ethanol fuel to run a turbo eninge? IM thinking of making my own ethanol to power my st163.5. Any thoughts on any issues ppl?
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yup, we had this discussion not long ago 
1) indy/champ (can't remember which) cars use methanol for their turbo motors, and speedway cars (sprint cars) also use methanol for their V8's.
2) you need approx double the volume of alcohol as petrol. so if you use 10L/100km now, you will use about 20L/100km with ethanol.
3) it is difficult to get ethanol dry enough. you can distill very carefully to maybe 90-95%, but this taks many passes and is a bit wasteful. to get better you need to chemicall dry it.
4) to produce enough ethanol to power your car for 200km a wek (40L) will be a very large drain on your time and your finances.. you need to buy the heat from somewhere. plus all the cooling water for the still. as well as the 400L of base material you need to get 40L of alcohol... thats 400L per week of distilling
5), i'm pretty sure it is not legal to make a still that large, regardlss of if it is for drinking or not.
6) cheaper to drive less walk more, use pedal less when driving, or move to a more efficient car, than to distill your own ethanol for use in a car.
7) you can already buy methanol/ethanol.. maybe aroudn $2 a litre? that makes it around $4/L in petrol equivalent.
 don't mind me.. give it a go anyway 
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 08:58
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Methanol and ethanol are obviously similar but different. I kno that speedway cars use methanol but wat bout ethanol? Wat alcohol do top alcohol dragsters run on?
I wont b buying the base spirits. I want to make it from sugar cane pulp or sumthing similar.
It may not b viable but im just keen to look into and give it ago.
I have heard that you will use 10% more fuel on ethanol.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:02
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| billmchenry wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 18:58 |
Methanol and ethanol are obviously similar but different. I kno that speedway cars use methanol but wat bout ethanol? Wat alcohol do top alcohol dragsters run on?
I wont b buying the base spirits. I want to make it from sugar cane pulp or sumthing similar.
It may not b viable but im just keen to look into and give it ago.
I have heard that you will use 10% more fuel on ethanol.
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most race vehicles use methanol.
you heard wrong. you need twice as much.
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Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:22
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If your going to do it summer will be your friend.
First off you are going to want to get all the starch material for free or next to nothing. Doing it in the hot weather will help all the starches to convert.
Then you will need to make a still and need alot of energy to seperate the alchol and the water. I also think this is pretty much illegal. AS you arnt allowed to produce alcohol over a certain percent and with the amount you are making it could be very noticible.
Go look up making beer or moonshine and you'll have a good idea of whats involved.
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:31
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This website reckons 10% more fuel needed...
http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/
Yeh it is probally illegal. But so is doin burnouts haha. Its illegal to distill your own spirits because of poisoning from over proofing etc.But how could they ever find out?
All this discussion about the 10% blend harming your motor, is it true or just fuel companies pretecting their own interests?
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:43
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if you have ever played with methanol you will know it isnt something you would use in a daily drive as i wouldnt ethanol.because of blowby you get it all threw the engine and it makes a mess of everything and very quickly.
mick
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:47
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the fuel characteristics of methanol and ethanol are a bit different.
For example ethanol has a fuel air ratio of about 1:6.5 whereas methanol is about 1:4.5
Premium unleaded 1:12
We use Methanol because of its ability to withstand high compression ratio's and its ability to carry oxygen. It also burns much much cooler then petrol.
Fuel injection for alcy engines is a fine and costly art.
To run electric fuel injection on alcy engines you will need 2-3 injectors per cylinder. And legitimate 'indy blue' alcohol injectors cost around $500 each.
2 x number of cylinders x $500= ALOT!
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:52
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wat do u mean by blowby?
That website claims that 200 proof ethanol is 102-106 octane. Would it b possible to use it as an octane booster. ie only using a 10% blend or so to increase octane?
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:56
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blowby is fuel or gases passing the piston rings, lots of alcy in ur engine oil isnt good.
I know from personal experience that methanol does not mix with premium unleaded. Addatives such as Acetone need to be added to make it mix proply. It looks like it has mixed but really it hasnt.
Honestly, methanol in a daily driven car isnt the best idea! its also very harsh on all aluminium and is highly corrosive.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 09:57
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the fuel and air that get bast the pistons is blowby!this lets fuel etc get into you oil.then it is spread around the moving parts in the engine and most are steel.
mick
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:05
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Well this ethanol idea isnt sounding so good. That blowby issue could b a real problem in a daily driven car. Not to mention the HUGE injectors.
Still Brazil uses pure ethanol as fuel (claimed on that website). Maybe there not telling us the whole story.
I have been told stories of a bloke in the 70's that had a HQ running on water... Now thats gotta b cheap to run  .
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:05
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why dont you just run it on AVGAS. i run AVGAS in my bike and last time i got it, it was around the same price as premium. But the thing is with my bike it is running a 10:1 compresion ratio, it runs like shit on premium. i could retared the timing a bit to run it on premium but it makes more power when it is set up for AVGAS
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:05
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lol jeff nearlly word for word one minute apart.
mick
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:12
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actually, the ethanol vehicle challenge car page linked said they had to source injectors that provided 37% more flow, and that GM had found a steady state (ie constant speed) increase of 24% consumption..
but remember, that is 85% ethanol, and 15% petrol.
not 90% ethanol and 10% water...
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:15
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yeh avgas would b the go... Stuffs me where i would get it from tho? Would it b ok to run in a daily driven car? Would there need to b many modifications to run it safely
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:19
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ethanol is poisonious. I poison myself every friday and sat nite haha
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:19
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im 16, i dont drink.
In exhaust fumes:)
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:25
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the remain water would b a big issue. I would prob only run half fuel/ethanol it i decide to go ahead.
I htink the main issue is the need for an aftermarket ecu and injectors.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:32
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u may be able to get away with the water issue if u had extremely air tight fuel system.
I think the max u would want to mix methanol to petrol is about 10%. Dont forget this is extra hassle because u need to add acetone and what not to get it to mix properly.
Your best bet is avgas i think. Airport is where i get it!
Its actually cheaper then petrol....just means u have to drive to the airport everytime u want to top up. unless u get some bulk....
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:45
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tell me more about this avgas, is it like a gas or a liquid?
how would the 4k-c go on it
if its cheaper than petrol wat can my parents say rite, im just tryin to be economical lol
but do tell me more, im interested!
~andrew~
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Location:
Fraser Coast, QLD
Registered:
June 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 10:46
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MIte go buy a 44 gallon drum of the stuff, c if they give me a sic discount 
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 11:29
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| love ke70 wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 20:45 |
tell me more about this avgas, is it like a gas or a liquid?
how would the 4k-c go on it
if its cheaper than petrol wat can my parents say rite, im just tryin to be economical lol
but do tell me more, im interested!
~andrew~
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avgas stands for aviation gasoline.
Usually a blue or green colour, most common place to get it is the airport.
U would only get an advantage from running it if u wanted to up the comp ratio of ur engine or advance ignition timing and it also has could lubrication.
Ud be trying to make a silk purse out of a sours ear if u wanted to run in it ur stock 4kc, no offence.
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Location:
brisbane
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 11:33
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okies thanks man, so unless u increase ur compression, which leads to alota costly excercises it aint worth it.
thanx for the help mate
catchyaz
~andrew~
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Registered:
March 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 12:30
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up your compression or up your boost! Yeah i have a mate from uni who is a member of some flying club down at moorabin airport in melbourne and he said they get a discount on AVGAS. He said its like 70cents a litre or a little more.
Fuck yeah i'm gonna get some!
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 21:55
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running national racecar teams and having a commercial pilots licence is hard for me to get avgas!lmao
thought i share this one for a laugh! i walk into the workshop a few years ago when we where putting the dyno in.alot of stuff had to be moved around the three sheds.so one of the boys,put 8 x 200 litre drums of avgas beside the 12 big gas bottles we use for the workshop heater/blower.on top of the drums of avgas was 2 massive boxes of sky rockets and other firecrakers we all bought, when going threw the ACT.did i go off,ask if he wanted to kill us all and level half the suburb.
mick
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 22:49
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yeah if you wanted to run avgas on a stock engine i dont think that it would do mutch. like i said though my bike is running a higher compression and more timing advace than stock. it also has other mods to like, bored out, ported and polished, biger carb, cam, shaved head, and bigger costom exhaust
with the price and getting it, i just drive to the local airport and fill up a 20L drum for around the same price as premium.
no one told me is was illegal 
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Sun, 23 October 2005 23:00
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ment to add for the ones out there that think avgas kills o2 sensors and fouls plugs.do you think us race guys are going to risk $80-120k engines on avgas if it suffed o2 sensors and fouled plugs.on a 2.3litre turbo v6 making well over 800hp{circuit racing} and using 1800cc injectors i have never fouled a plug or lost an o2 sensor,or have i on the chev's etc etc. with a carby yes but not injected.
avgas stuffs cat converters.
with avgas we can run 13-1 compratio on the chev motors,with the development of our new motors over the last 3 years{avgas being banned from cams racing}we can keep 12.5 compratio on pulp.if you have a good engine builded you can run 12.5-1 on 1j's,2j's,4ag,s etc on pulp.but dont get stuck on a long trip without octane booster.
mick
p.s i think i have said that about avgas a few times.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
August 2004
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Mon, 24 October 2005 11:30
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I think buying avgas is a matter of who u get it from, some hangers will sell it, some will not. If your lucky enough u will find one that will sell it.
Mick, i can agree with your statement about avgas not fouling plugs and ruining o2 sensors on fuel injected engines. The engines we've built at liberty and run avgas with carbies havent had any trouble either.
We have used o2 sensors on the dyno with avgas many times and are still working fine.
I think it would almost be the opposite, dirty old 2 strokes using premix fuel run a dam site better on leaded fuel then they do on unleaded. Thats what they were using in the US not so long ago, dont know about now. The oil in the premix fuel making it more likely to foul a plug.
Im not to sure on the scientifics but i know leaded fuel can have a tendency to leave behind a spec of lead(or somthing) on the spark plug electrode which will stop it from sparking. learnt this from using avgas in a lawnmower. The fuel was pretty dam grotty to, probly full of crap.
Oh btw, avgas doesnt mix with oil very well, looks like it but no matter how hard u shake it, it will not mix PROPERLY.
[Updated on: Wed, 26 October 2005 11:48]
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 14:47
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| kingmick wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 07:00 |
ment to add for the ones out there that think avgas kills o2 sensors and fouls plugs.do you think us race guys are going to risk $80-120k engines on avgas if it suffed o2 sensors and fouled plugs.on a 2.3litre turbo v6 making well over 800hp{circuit racing} and using 1800cc injectors i have never fouled a plug or lost an o2 sensor,or have i on the chev's etc etc. with a carby yes but not injected.
avgas stuffs cat converters.
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The discussion is about using avgas on the street.
The operating parameters of a mega dollar race motor and the average high peformance motor used on the street are completely different!!
It's a well documented fact that lead in fuel stuffs oxygen sensors as used in road cars.
Normally the oxygen sensor slowly dies due to a gradual build up of lead on the sensor. That can be a catch because the sensor slowly degrades and supplies erroneous readings whilst appearing to work properly.
IIRC an example is using avgas with the standard Toyota type oxygen sensor you'll stuff the sensor in around 50 hours running.
I've seen this more than once.
You can buy a lead tolerant sensor from Bosch for big dollars and other 'almost' lead tolerant sensors.
Of course lead fouls plugs!
Once again, it may not be as common in a race motor running WOT most of the time as it is in a street motor.
Fouling usually occurs when idling a lot and/or running rich.
I've seen it happen on race motors, street motors and in aircraft many many times.
Things have improved a bit since they brought out 100LL avgas, I believe they cut the lead content by about 60% compared to the old avgas 100/130.
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Location:
geelong
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Tue, 25 October 2005 22:22
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my bikes been running on avgas for about 7 years or more, and i dont recall it ever fouling up a plug.
The only thing it has ever done is if i dont run the carby out of fuel and let the bike sit for a long time then it gets some sort of jel like stuff in the fuel bowl. but is not hard to clean it out 
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Toymods member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Rydalmere, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 04:07
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A crazy mate of mine in NZ has a RAV4 as well, and he ditched the 3S-FE and switched it over for a 3S-GE (BEAMS I think)... he belts it around Pukekohe Circuit with some other streeter's once in a while, and I'm sure he still uses AvGas in his. But this thing is made for about 80% race/circuit use and goes pretty hard for an N/A.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 10:48
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blown86 you really are a knob jokey!so your telling someone{me}that builds,runs and races national racecars and someone that works at one of the top engine builders{jeff} in the country that has two,read two engine dynos whats what.your a dead set drop kick.do you actually know or have anything to do with engines?or you just read web pages?
people amaze me.
i have never had a race or standard oxy sensor fail because of avgas ever.really crap ones might fail for other reasons but toyota uses have decent oxy sensors.i can show you 3 standard rolla sensors i have sitting in the workshop that have all used avgas as a regular diet!
run avgas its fine,just make sure you dont have a cat.
mick
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Wed, 26 October 2005 15:01
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Mick, I'm not having ago at you or questioning your experience.
If you read my post you will see that I was trying to relate to road cars and the type of sensors they use.
I understand what you do and I understand the difference beteen the types of motors you discuss.
I'm a Mechanical Engineer, started working on Formula Mondial cars 20 years ago, including building the Cosworth BDD motors and have played with other types of race cars over the years.
Just relating my experience in this regard and what I have personally seen over the years.
You will find that lead contamination of oxygen sensors is a documented fact.
The sensors may not always fail completely but that doesn't mean that the sensor is operating effectively either.
Perhaps the sensors you use are the Bosch or some other lead tolerant type considering the amount of km you run and the expense of the motor??
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Location:
The Hills District
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Thu, 27 October 2005 13:18
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could someone please explain the chemical difference between avgas and pulp. keeping in mind avgas is designed to burn at great altitudes.
on another my mates dad has a race boat that he races the bridge to bridge in and he runs his engine on avgas. i dont recall him ever having trouble with it fouling sensors etc and the motor is a brodix 5L (or thereabouts) with a microtech - however it doesnt run a cat. he's a pretty cluey guy and i dont think if he had trouble with avgas he would use it as the motor is worth close to 100k. as previously stated avgas is priced at around double in comparison to PULP.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Thu, 27 October 2005 13:25
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as i previously understood it, Avgas is designed to resist pinging/detonation and have a slow flame speed because of the large bores in aircraft engines...
the bore size, combned with low rpm, means that you have a while to wait for things to happen, and you don't want a flamefront just bouncing around in there...
and the last thing you want to do in a plane is to reduce power due to a pinging problem....
so... more detonation resistant = more reliable and allows enigne to be run leaner, and slow flame speed to give time for thigs to happen (yah, real scientific )
in cars, the detonation resistance means you MUST run more advance to get the same power, but you can run a bit more advance and compression and get a little more power out of it...
for race motors it's also good as the quality and conistency is meant to be better...
an aeronautical engineer friend suggested that in high rpm engines, the gains (apart from detonation resistance) may not be so great as you have to run heaps more advance just to get the full burn happening, and the charge may not be fully ignited on the way down, or already burnt before piston is turning to go down.....
but most ppl just see that it has higher octane, they can run more advance, and think they automatically get more power because of that..
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Ethanol fuel and turbo engines...
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Thu, 27 October 2005 13:29
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from Chevron
http://www.chevron.com/products/prodserv/fuels/bul letin/aviationfuel/10_ag_composition.shtm
as for lead...
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Ethylene dibromide reacts with the lead oxide as it forms and converts it to a mixture of lead bromide and lead oxybromides. Because these compounds are volatile, they are exhausted from the engine along with the rest of the combustion products. Just enough ethylene dibromide is added to react with all of the lead. However, because the reaction does not quite go to completion, a small amount of lead oxide deposit is found in the cylinders of aircraft piston engines.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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