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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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SC12 Supercharger questions
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Thu, 20 October 2005 14:13
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i've blown the supercharger's relay somehow.. so i can't get it to turn on
any options ?
contemplating
1. making custom switch and modified relay so i can externally switch the charger on
2. welding clutch in so always on
3. bridging wires so i don't need relay, also always on
4. looking for the switch as advertised in WTB, and if ordered takes forever and cost half an arm ...
suggestions??
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Location:
Vancouver BC, Canada.
Registered:
November 2004
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Thu, 20 October 2005 17:26
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Yeah why not just replace the relay?  
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 05:07
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i've tried.. but there are a few different amp for a 4 pin relay..and i've tried a 20A one.. doesn't work..
and nobody has it.. only toyota dealers can get it.. from japan.. and takes 4 weeks..
so... that's why i'm having this thread.. no idea at all what to do..
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 05:30
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...take four weeks break to rediscover appreciation for how much power your car normally has...
Id order the part, bridge the wires with a fusible link (why did the relay burn out in the first place?) and enjoy yourself for four weeks, only to feel like there's a lil something missing when you return your car to load based boost (normal)...
Iv heard that the toyota S/C's arent supposed to run full duty. Dunno why exactly, i think the lobes have a teflon coating or something that will burn off... ???
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 05:38
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| mic* wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 15:30 |
...take four weeks break to rediscover appreciation for how much power your car normally has...
Id order the part, bridge the wires with a fusible link (why did the relay burn out in the first place?) and enjoy yourself for four weeks, only to feel like there's a lil something missing when you return your car to load based boost (normal)...
Iv heard that the toyota S/C's arent supposed to run full duty. Dunno why exactly, i think the lobes have a teflon coating or something that will burn off... ???
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that's another option put forward by my mechanic too. Currently i'm driving without the supercharger.. and from this i'm learning to make a map for NA so i can focus on tuning without boost yet. appreciating it now... but feels so empty without boost
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 06:16
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i have a spare relay if needed as ive started my 4agte project
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 06:27
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There you go...
It wont be long now and you'll be boosting all over the place again. 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 11:57
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| 4agte wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 16:16 |
i have a spare relay if needed as ive started my 4agte project
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PMed..
good luck with your project. 
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 12:01
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| mic* wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 16:27 |
There you go...
It wont be long now and you'll be boosting all over the place again.
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realistically... the time the car was tuned close to perfect with the supercharger working and me driving it hard is about 20 mins.. out of 5 weeks we had with it.
and for that 20 minutes, all i can say is WOO HOOOOO
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 12:15
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check your wiring to make sure it isn't fuxored.. seems a bit strange that the relay would die...
also those horn relays are not all they are cracked up to be.. get PROPER relay (like a P&B or equiv brand), not some k-mart jobbie
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 13:13
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 22:15 |
check your wiring to make sure it isn't fuxored.. seems a bit strange that the relay would die...
also those horn relays are not all they are cracked up to be.. get PROPER relay (like a P&B or equiv brand), not some k-mart jobbie
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i've checked everything. The relay burned somehow, and the only thing i can think of is that the supercharger clicked on and off 5 times in 30 seconds because of the tuning and erratic idle. But this shouldn't be the case because it's just a switch.
Can you elaborate on what you know about the relay, like P&B?? where can i get a proper relay, what amps and what specifications am i looking at?
I have the wiring diagram and it looks to be like a normal relay but i'm not so sure because i've tried a few relays now and nothing works, and Toyota has said it's a special relay that's why it's 80 bucks and 4 weeks from japan. The diagram has the relay as something with coil and switch inside. Also how does the relay know it's 2500 RPM to be triggered? hooked to some signal etc...
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 13:26
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i think they are F4 or VF4 type
such as http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/134.p df
maybe $6-10 each, but worht a little extra..
as for being a special relay, look at your wiring diagrams... that should tell you quickly
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 13:27
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oh, P&B, potter and brumfield
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 14:13
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| oldcorollas wrote on Fri, 21 October 2005 23:26 |
i think they are F4 or VF4 type
such as http://relays.tycoelectronics.com/datasheets/134.p df
maybe $6-10 each, but worht a little extra..
as for being a special relay, look at your wiring diagrams... that should tell you quickly
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http://opc.mr2oc.com/online_parts_catalog/1989AW11 _complete_wiring_diagrams4.pdf
page 9... toward the bottom.. the supercharger relay looks fairly straight forward. Nobody knows how many amps or what is the specification of that relay though.. and toyota claims it's a very special one. If it's on and off.. how special can it be?
i can't see the link... what's it about? relays or something ya?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 14:19
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yah, just looks like normal...
you may ned to match the coil resistances tho, wouldn:t want to draw too much current thru the ECU...
maybe get a few ppl to pull theirs out and check the resistance..
as for current, measure the resistance of the clutch 
then just calculate what current draw is...
20A continuous should be fine.. 40amp overkill.. but make sure you match the coil resistance...
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 14:47
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i get where u're going .. and thanks for the advice. i'll check it out tomorrow
as for the signal, it's nothing to do with the ECU. in fact, the ECU is a dumb thing, doesn't make much calculations or anything. the source of the relay signal somes from ignition or something not too sure, i'll trace it again tomorrow
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Fri, 21 October 2005 16:29
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actually , from that diagram you sent me, the RED-WHT wire from the supercharger relay coil goes to the ECU (pin SMC)
Figure 7, near the "D" ont he left hand side...
maybe yours have been wired up dodgily????
the other wire (BLK) goes to +12V (which is connected eventaully to pin 2 of your "circuit opening relay").... and the ECU grounds RED-WHT wire to turn the SC on...
check and make sure your wiring does this!!!
if not.. time to rewire
have fun!!
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sat, 22 October 2005 04:08
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i think it's wired up differently, or it's wired onto the ECU in a way i didn't see it.
Still i've never noticed it on the ECU when i did the rewiring and the tuning, could be something i've missed.
But the supercharger turns on at exactly 2500 rpm without fail, so the trigger is something i'm not sure about
thanks for your help and now i'm on the right track. Hopefully it'll be alright.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 01:07
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Are you using the stock toyota ecu? Maybe someone disconnected the trigger and wired in an rpm set switch.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 11:30
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| sikmr2 wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 11:07 |
Are you using the stock toyota ecu? Maybe someone disconnected the trigger and wired in an rpm set switch.
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good question
i'm using Haltech ECU... and i think it is wired in differently
however the supercharger clicks in at 2500 exactly without fail or fluctuations.. not sure how.
going to check if the magnetic clutch has any shorts inside.. and trace the wires to see if there's any wire shorted out etc.. so any suggestions or help would be most welcome. Keep getting advised there's a short to cause that burn to the relay's internals.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 11:33
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so ur using a haltech ecu that should have an output for the relay.
When i had the s/c running with the wolf i could set the load/tps/rpm that the s/c came on at
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 11:43
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| 4agte wrote on Sun, 23 October 2005 21:33 |
so ur using a haltech ecu that should have an output for the relay.
When i had the s/c running with the wolf i could set the load/tps/rpm that the s/c came on at
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yea.. but with wolf you have to set a limit so it doesn't come on at higher revs, which would kill the magnetic clutch.
What outputs am i looking at which would give a signal at exactly 2500 rpm for the supercharger to click on? i just want to check it so i won't fry another relay otherwise i'm just wasting it. It did run fine for the 6 weeks we had it though, it just cooked when we tuned it up (on and off too much, as i was thinking?)
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 14:08
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That sounds strange...a relay shouldn't die from just being turned on and off in quick succession- it must be something else. I have my relay behind the glove box and the bastard seems to click on and off all the time in normal driving.
I don't know what the thinking is behind having the blower switch on and off by merely revs alone, but it doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Maybe start off by looking at a better way to wire the relay to the ECU and then set it to switch via maybe throttle position...(on my standard ECU it seems to turn on ant between 1/2 and 2/3 throttle regardless of load or rpm)
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Location:
sa
Registered:
October 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Sun, 23 October 2005 14:24
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what stuff do u use to clean it to keep it spining smooth
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Mon, 24 October 2005 01:46
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| LeZZa wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 00:08 |
That sounds strange...a relay shouldn't die from just being turned on and off in quick succession- it must be something else. I have my relay behind the glove box and the bastard seems to click on and off all the time in normal driving.
I don't know what the thinking is behind having the blower switch on and off by merely revs alone, but it doesn't sound like a very good idea to me. Maybe start off by looking at a better way to wire the relay to the ECU and then set it to switch via maybe throttle position...(on my standard ECU it seems to turn on ant between 1/2 and 2/3 throttle regardless of load or rpm)
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hm... dun think haltech has that option but i'll try anyway.. coz i dun remember seeing it in the manual and in the program itself having an optional switch trigger thing...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Mon, 24 October 2005 01:51
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| rb30drifter wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 00:24 |
what stuff do u use to clean it to keep it spining smooth
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my supercharger is running off the engine for oil, so i just change oil regularly and use 5W-40 on it..
nothing much else can be done in terms of maintenance.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Mon, 24 October 2005 05:41
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OK, there seems to be a fair bit of misinformation in this thread.
Firstly, your supercharger DOES NOT use the engine oil supply. It has it's own supply of very thin oil that purely lubricates the gears on the rear of the SC lobes that mesh. It may also slosh onto some bearings back there, but this I am unsure about.
Also, the SC clutch is a simple device. It has two wires. Apply 12V across these wires and the clutch engages and so the SC spins. The ECU needs to have an auxilliary output which will control a relay that switches the voltage to the clutch.
If your Haltech doesn't have an aux output then you will need to use a dash mounted switch to control the relay.
rb30 - As for cleaning the internals and lobes, a rag and some patience is your best bet.
Hen
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 03:41
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| Henn wrote on Mon, 24 October 2005 15:41 |
OK, there seems to be a fair bit of misinformation in this thread.
Firstly, your supercharger DOES NOT use the engine oil supply. It has it's own supply of very thin oil that purely lubricates the gears on the rear of the SC lobes that mesh. It may also slosh onto some bearings back there, but this I am unsure about.
Also, the SC clutch is a simple device. It has two wires. Apply 12V across these wires and the clutch engages and so the SC spins. The ECU needs to have an auxilliary output which will control a relay that switches the voltage to the clutch.
If your Haltech doesn't have an aux output then you will need to use a dash mounted switch to control the relay.
rb30 - As for cleaning the internals and lobes, a rag and some patience is your best bet.
Hen
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there are big differences between the two versions of the GZE motor. As far as i know mine has an oil line running from the sump to the supercharger itself. 2 mechanics have seen it. Some more there is no way to open the SC and lubricate it (like an oil plug or anything) and was told that'll happen if i take it out and crack it open. I could be wrong...
i'm looking at a dash mounted switch to control the relay, but at the moment the supercharger is turned on at exactly 2500 RPM, not sure how or where the trigger is. I've checked the power supply and it seems to be alright, but i'll make new wires for it just in case.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 04:42
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| TRD_07 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 13:41 |
there are big differences between the two versions of the GZE motor.
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Really? I think the differences are fairly minor. The usual bigport vs smallport changes, AFM vs MAP and dizzy vs DLI. Also I tend to think there are 3 versions: AW11, AE92 and AE101 though as usual it's open to discussion.
| TRD_07 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 13:41 |
As far as i know mine has an oil line running from the sump to the supercharger itself.
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I have never seen this before, though someone may have totally rejigged the system. Unlikely though in my opinion.
| TRD_07 wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 13:41 |
Some more there is no way to open the SC and lubricate it (like an oil plug or anything)
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Again there should be two oil plugs on the rear of the SC, one on top of a tube for filling and a drain plug on the bottom. But then again if your SC setup is really as kooky as you describe, this could all have been changed as well.
Hen
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 05:32
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yeah the last thing i would want would be to have engine oil lubricating the s/c especially oil that may be 5000km old.
Should be a dipstick at the back of the s/c on the opposite side to the engine and should be yellow. The oil level can be checked there and needs to be filled there aswell with a syringe and a tube. I used 0w-20 synthetic fuchs oil in it seemed to work well as my s/c looked immaculate inside with no sign of wear whatsoever.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 08:04
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None of the gze's had oil lines from the sump to the blower, the blower has its own oil supply for the gears and thats it. My s/c comes on at -81kpa and stays on until engine load drops below this and it does turn off then back on during gear changes. I have had it set up like this for over 2 years with no problem to the clutch on the s/c. Check the setup screen for your ecu and change it to come on under load not rpm and it will drive much better, trust me, i have accidentally had mine rpm activated before. Maybe yo have the PWM frequencies all wrong in there too. If its causing problems switching the clutch on and off im thinking maybe your s/c has had the dick and you should be looking for another one. Just my 2 cents
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 12:19
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 22 October 2005 02:29 |
actually , from that diagram you sent me, the RED-WHT wire from the supercharger relay coil goes to the ECU (pin SMC)
Figure 7, near the "D" ont he left hand side...
maybe yours have been wired up dodgily????
the other wire (BLK) goes to +12V (which is connected eventaully to pin 2 of your "circuit opening relay").... and the ECU grounds RED-WHT wire to turn the SC on...
check and make sure your wiring does this!!!
if not.. time to rewire
have fun!!
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The four wires that go through the relay...
two from supercharger black and red (red is to be connected to positive for the SC Clutch to turn on).
then there's a brown and a red/white one, which then joins together and become one wire, which is connected to the +ve of the battery.
So instead of having the signal from ECU, it's connected to the +ve of the battery anyway. But with this setup, the supercharger turns on at exactly 2500 rpm everytime... not sure why or how.
I've rewired it, +ve current goes to the supercharger (red wire) and controlled by a On / Off switch.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 12:33
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hm... my GZE's boost / vacuum gauge doesn't show that the engine load drops. at idle, under no load, if you rev it up slowly, the needle doesn't drop back to vacuum, and gets closer to 0. With the supercharger off, holding the rev at 3000 will show vacuum close to zero instead of the idle position at -60 or something.
in fact, with the supercharger on, you can reach almost 1.3 bar under no load just freely revving it. Uncanny eh? i know it's not supposed to be this way, and i know if there's no load, the gauge should show it.
As for how the supercharger is wired up, check the previous post. It's really weird how the SC is wired up.
Anyway i've wired it up with a switch so i can leave it off when normally driving or cruising (coz i don't think i can wire it to the ECU as it doesn't have output trigger for SC), and until i get another relay i'll leave it like this. Might be a permanent solution.
ALso, the supercharger has some oil lines i haven't traced to where, but it doesn't have that yellow plug for oil or anything. and i've looked front and back, 2 mechanics have looked as well and none of us can see this small yellow dipstick behind the SC. There are oil lines, which i assume run off the engine. Is it possible it's a different super charger??
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 12:46
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surely you would have checked that it was an SC12/14 at the beginning of all this???
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 15:53
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 22:46 |
surely you would have checked that it was an SC12/14 at the beginning of all this???
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yea i did.. it's definitely the SC that comes with the GZE in an AW11 (Bigport), however i don't see the yellow plug or anything to lubricate the blower. It can't be the SC14 coz the mounts etc are all standard. Weird... i'm getting confused.
Maybe i need to consult another mechanic?
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Tue, 25 October 2005 23:25
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the drain plug is pretty hard to see be it is definantly there. they run their own oil supply the hoses are just to equalise pressure in the gear housing of the charger.
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Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Wed, 26 October 2005 01:18
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there are 2 hoses that connect from the water pipe that runs along the block to the throttle. These could be the pipes your mechanic is referring to but it is definatley for water and not for oil
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Location:
sa
Registered:
October 2005
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Wed, 26 October 2005 04:11
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| TRD_07 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 01:53 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 25 October 2005 22:46 |
surely you would have checked that it was an SC12/14 at the beginning of all this???
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yea i did.. it's definitely the SC that comes with the GZE in an AW11 (Bigport), however i don't see the yellow plug or anything to lubricate the blower. It can't be the SC14 coz the mounts etc are all standard. Weird... i'm getting confused.
Maybe i need to consult another mechanic?
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maybe you should take some pics, and post them up here so ppl can compare...
i'd be interested to see this sump connection as well...
RB30drifter, your question was answered in another thread.
pull it apart and just clean it.. if you've fucked the coating, then there is not much you can do.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Wed, 26 October 2005 07:04
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while it's not outside the realms of possibility that the relay failed all on it's Pat Malone, usually something else causes them to fail. I'd start by checking the resistance of the clutch coil on the charger to make sure it is not burnt out. I don't know what it should be though so hopefully someone with a shop manual can tell you the expected resistance. I'd expect an ohm or 2...
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Wed, 26 October 2005 12:56
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i'm under the impression that it's a standard supercharger and standard relay, with a standard magnetic clutch.
how can it be that something doesn't match.. hmm.. i'll get the electrician to check it before i install the relay again. Having fun with the switch, and it's better for tuning this way i.e. NA map and the Boost map. and prefer it to be NA for everyday and cruising.
how do i put up pics here? i'll take some asap.
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Thu, 27 October 2005 01:15
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| TRD_07 wrote on Wed, 26 October 2005 22:56 |
Having fun with the switch, and it's better for tuning this way i.e. NA map and the Boost map.
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It may just be my opinion, but this seems pretty silly. You should have just one fuel and one ignition map for your engine. NA would just use part of them (up to atmospheric manifold pressure), while they will be used in their entireity when the supercharger is engaged.
Your engine wont magically need a different pair of maps once you switch your SC on. It may use a different area of the maps at times, but the "NA" section should be the same.
Also, I found a way of switching the SC clutch nice and smoothly based on manifold pressure. It drives well and gives good fuel efficiency, search for it if you want.
Hen
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2005
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Re: SC12 Supercharger questions
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Thu, 27 October 2005 15:08
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it is just one map..
well basically one main map and several other supporting ones. with the SC off, i can concentrate on the map before atmospheric pressure (zero bar).. and with this i can adjust it in such a way it can perform under load without the supercharger turned on. this has to accomodate for full throttle map as well so without the SC turned on it can still have some performance. Then i can use the SC to surprise people etc...
anyway i've tuned it up now, and it's quite nicely done. Not unreasonably rich like before, and not lean to cause pinging. SC turns on and it's still stoich even under extreme loads so i think its quite well done now.
As for the SC in question, i'm still thinking how i should wire it with the relay because it's impossible how it ran before and i still can't understand it. By joining the signal wire with the +ve current, doesn't it mean the signal would be shorted out? how then is the SC still able to turn on and off at the 2500 RPM mark?
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