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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 00:29
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Hmm
I have firstly put traction brackets on my ae86.
With adjustable trailing arms with rose joints. I have it set to the lowest point of adjustment on the bracket.. There are two higher settings..
Seems like this setting is grippy. And good for putting power down. Would the higher up it goes decrease the grip in theory? The car is sitting low in the back so the angle of the trailing arm would be closer to stock as it is..
But i don't understand. DOes it twist the diff upwards if its on the lower setting? What happens when i accelerate? I am looking for a more slippery setting.
cheers.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 05:00
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| Evan wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 10:29 |
What happens when i accelerate? I am looking for a more slippery setting.
cheers.
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remove traction bracket then? traction is grip,
lemme guess, you need less grip for dorifto 
you are talking about this yeah?
what the brackets do, is change the angle of the lower links..
back to square one...looking from drivers side at rear wheel...
car accelerates, wheel turns clockwise as axles are providing a clockwise force. diff housing is resisting this force, and is thus trying to turn anticlockwise....
so at the top of the housing the suspension arms are in tension, and the lower arms are in compression...
so the force to accelerate the car is coming entirely thru the lower arms, and since they are free to rotate at both ends, the force MUST be transmitted along the along the arm is on....
ie, if the arm is angled down, the car will squat more.
if the arms are angled upwards, it will tend to lift the back of the car.
the poorly named fooly sik "traction brackets" are not about trction, they are about restoring and altering theangle that the lower arm pushes against the body.
during acceleration, the angle required is determined by the magnitude of the forces involved, the ride height, the strength of the springs and shocks, the amount of weight transfer etc etc etc..
so why did you buy the brackets?
[Updated on: Sat, 29 October 2005 05:03]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 08:52
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| ae86drift wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 16:31 |
afaik, evan is a racer not a drifter
drifters dont use traction brackets for good reason 
traction brackets can also restore pinion angle to centre on lower cars, but adjustable trailing arms do a better job
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ahh k...
| Quote: |
With adjustable trailing arms with rose joints. I have it set to the lowest point of adjustment on the bracket.. There are two higher settings..
Seems like this setting is grippy. And good for putting power down. Would the higher up it goes decrease the grip in theory? The car is sitting low in the back so the angle of the trailing arm would be closer to stock as it is..
But i don't understand. DOes it twist the diff upwards if its on the lower setting? What happens when i accelerate? I am looking for a more slippery setting.
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i just would have expected a racer to understand that it is the adjustable trailing arms that set the diff pinion angle.. not the brackets... and that all the brackets do is change the lower arm geometry, in that it changes the angle of intersection with the body.... and that it changes the moment arm of the diff bracket and this affects the forces it conveys, relative to the upper bracket, and thus affects how much the diff 'climbs' (but 4AG doesn't have that much power  )
as i understood it, "traction brackets" were a drag developed item, adn had to do with massive power causing the diff the climb, and this helped correct it by increasing the length of the moment arm acting on the diff... and also when the ride height is diferent, it allowed changes to the weight and power transfer due to lower arm gemoetry...
i only suggested dorifto as it sound slike the sort of thing a dorifto boy would install without know what it did 
i guess you have to ask the question... what is the ideal lower arm angle of instersection with the body, and how will it change with weight transfer to the rear of the car..
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 09:31
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This car isn't for drift only..
Thats why i bought the brackets..
So i could have as much adjustability as possible and restore the trailing arms back to proper angle.
I know they give more "traction" all i was asking is to have a lil sideways fun should i have it set higher.
anyways...
Its got great speed now.. powering out of a corner is fantastic.. so i thought i might have a play with the settings. Still gets nice and sideways anywho
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 09:41
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| ae86drift wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 16:31 |
afaik, evan is a racer not a drifter
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Evan is all of the above..
Its great to be able to do both.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sat, 29 October 2005 14:42
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well OC the idea is hard-er springs with grip but not as much
the tire compund matters too, good inital but wont stick if you give it too much. the shock also comes into play, harder is better but without reducin ride quality too much
but thats track drift for a dedicated car. for a road warrior get adjustable everything and a few sets of good tires.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sun, 30 October 2005 01:46
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| ae86drift wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 00:42 |
well OC the idea is hard-er springs with grip but not as much
the tire compund matters too, good inital but wont stick if you give it too much. the shock also comes into play, harder is better but without reducin ride quality too much
but thats track drift for a dedicated car. for a road warrior get adjustable everything and a few sets of good tires.
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thats what i'm suggesting... get springs that are too hard and reduce grip, then wind up shocks to match said stupidly hard springs (you know.. like 8-12kg for a spoontah) to control the minimal spring movement, and regardless of the tyres, you will still reduce rear grip, but still have the handling characteristics of a good setup...
what are you suggesting is to be gained by having a fully adjustable everything setup? surely that is just to be able to set everything in position once? if you don't change anything, there is no difference betwen a single setting and a multi setting part 
i still stand by my asertion that he should set up the suspension gemoetry as the best it can be... and then reduce the quality of spring/shock/tyre choice to reduce grip for dorifto... then the good characteristics are still there and it will be more controllable 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sun, 30 October 2005 01:51
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:46 |
what are you suggesting is to be gained by having a fully adjustable everything setup?
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for road so u can set things for grip when driving on public roads.
| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:46 |
i still stand by my asertion that he should set up the suspension gemoetry as the best it can be... and then reduce the quality of spring/shock/tyre choice to reduce grip for dorifto... then the good characteristics are still there and it will be more controllable
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i agree completely!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sun, 30 October 2005 02:07
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| ae86drift wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:51 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:46 |
what are you suggesting is to be gained by having a fully adjustable everything setup?
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for road so u can set things for grip when driving on public roads.
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sorry, my question is WHAT are you going to adjust?? upper and lower trailing arm lengths? panhard rod length? camber? ride height? front LCA length? castor??
the only things i can think of that would be of benefit to change for a road setup is to halve the spring and shock rates and get back to sensible camber (like.. 1-2neg.. then again, more camber is not really needed on a drift car..) or castor..
although sicne you don't corner at high speed with full opposite lock on public roads, the castor should be fine also.. just a little heavy...
edit: and in asking that, i mean, why would you want to swap around the traction bracket mounting points between road, track and drift? suspension gemoetry is just that, and should not need to be altered so significantly between each activity, unless ride height changes mean that the lower trailing arm angle goes to shite
[Updated on: Sun, 30 October 2005 02:09]
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Sun, 30 October 2005 02:11
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i found this when trying to find out exactly what traction brackets did after i bought mine, don't know if its of any help...
http://www.hachiroku.net/tech/5l/5l.html
i'm in the same boat as evan, using the spontah for everything, i was concidering changing the position of the traction brackets for the drift practice i did, but not having drifted at all before it, i thought i would leave it the way it is... get a benchmark first.
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 02:16
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oldcorollas is incorrect when he says that traction brackets don't affect diff pinion angle.
The traction brackets will affect the diff pinion angle! due to the ae86 having a shorter top arm as you lower the car it starts to pivot around the shorter top arm, this pushes the diff back andlowers the diff pinion, when fitting traction brackets you will have to push the diff forward which then lifts the pinion angle.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 02:28
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| 170bhp wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 13:16 |
oldcorollas is incorrect when he says that traction brackets don't affect diff pinion angle.
The traction brackets will affect the diff pinion angle! due to the ae86 having a shorter top arm as you lower the car it starts to pivot around the shorter top arm, this pushes the diff back andlowers the diff pinion, when fitting traction brackets you will have to push the diff forward which then lifts the pinion angle.
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technically yes.... but he has adjustable lower arms.. and anyone fitting these brackets would have adjustable lower arms... and you adjust them to set the pinion angle...
what i meant was that the brackets doe not SET the pinion angle.. the TRAILING ARMS do that job...
no-one in their right mind would just brackets in there without resetting the pinion angle...
the suspension geometry gets complex when you start to push the arms past horizontal, and needs a decent look to determine what will happen with various ride heights and axle wind-up etc etc...
as it all comes down to exactly how far it is lowered... and exactly what angles occur for each arm during the full expected suspension travel
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 08:23
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you don't need adj arms to fit traction brackets!! fitting traction brackets with the factory arms will work fine, if you have traction bracets like I have fitted which have 3 sets of additional holes then the location of the standard(if standard arm are fitted) would effect the pinion angle! If I select anyone of the three holes then I start to adj my pinion angle(I do have cusco adj rear arms fitted btw) by quite an amount!! which suprises me when you say 'no one in their right mind would just fit the brackets without adj pinion angle'.....that's what they do!! fitting traction brackets with or without adj arms WILL adj pinion angle there is nothing you can do to stop that....unless you fit longer upper arms(like I have!)or wind your lower arms right out!! With a standard lower arm as you move to a lower hole on the traction bracket the hole becomes further away from the lower arm, because the top arm is shorter, the whole lot pivots around this, you must therefore push the diff forward to get the lower arm in, which raises the pinion angle. I understand by changing the angle of the arm you are affecting squat etc etc but you just can't get away from the fact that fitting traction brackets with or without adj lower arms will affect pinion angle, oldcorollas have you ever fitted these???? because the amount you have to move the diff forward is quite alot! and I'm sure I wouldn't want to wind my cusco arms out that amount!!anyway I went equal length 4 link so I can put it where I want. at the end of the day fitting traction brackets with standard bottom arms will work and will change the pinion angle by quite an amount.
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 09:35
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let a little secret out!the magic numer is 4!4degree's nose down for traction and were ever ajustment for what ever racing your doing.there is alot to it, if i do a track car i have from -20% to +20% ajustment then you have angle to degree's ajustment and length ajustment.then there is welcome to four link rear ajustment.my advice it to get it setup by someone that knows what they are doing,saves chasing your tail.
mick
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 09:46
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Aren't properly designed traction brackets usually designed to bring back suspension geometry on a lowered car which will reset pinion angle to original with standards arms?
ie the whiteline ones are meant to be used with their lowering kit and allow for the x amount the car is lowered.
Oldcorollas is right, you're nuts not to use the adjustable arms to reset pinion angle, that's what they're for.
Back to the topic:
Screwing around with the arms and traction brackets to change handling balance is absolutely the wrong way to do things.
Springs, shocks and sway bars should be used only.
Compromising suspension geometry is not an appropriate way to alter handling balance, it'll potentially lead to evil handling traits.
The easiest and best way is to wind up shock settings and increase sway bar stiffness at the rear and vice versa at the front to gain oversteer.
BTW 170hp - Use some punctuation for christ's sake!!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 09:58
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| 170bhp wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 19:23 |
you don't need adj arms to fit traction brackets!! fitting traction brackets with the factory arms will work fine, if you have traction bracets like I have fitted which have 3 sets of additional holes then the location of the standard(if standard arm are fitted) would effect the pinion angle! If I select anyone of the three holes then I start to adj my pinion angle(I do have cusco adj rear arms fitted btw) by quite an amount!!
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i think you misunderstand me.
yes. you can fit the brackets with the stock arms.
yes. if the adjustment holes are not in the correct arc so as to not affect the required lower arm length, the pinion angle will change.
it seems logical to manufacture the brackets such that the original lower arms can be used, but then you wouldn't have to buy new adjustable ones would you ...
i do not understand your comments above. first you say "fitting traction brackets with the factory arms will work fine" and in the next breath you say "If I select anyone of the three holes then I start to adj my pinion angle by quite an amount"
are you saying it is fine to have funny pinion angles when using the standard arm??? please rephrase
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which suprises me when you say 'no one in their right mind would just fit the brackets without adj pinion angle'.....that's what they do!!
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let me rephrase.
no-one who knows what they are doing, would fit traction brackets without restoring the pinion angle to a suitable angle. from the designs of brackets around, this requires longer lower arms. i'm not saying that stock lower arm with badly made brackets does not change the angle... i'm saying why would you fit them and not restore the angle.
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fitting traction brackets with or without adj arms WILL adj pinion angle there is nothing you can do to stop that....unless you fit longer (you mean shorter??) upper arms(like I have!)or wind your lower arms right out!! With a standard lower arm as you move to a lower hole on the traction bracket the hole becomes further away from the lower arm, because the top arm is shorter, the whole lot pivots around this, you must therefore push the diff forward to get the lower arm in, which raises the pinion angle.
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so you are saying that to maintain/restore the pinion angle, you must use longer lower arms??? which is what i said...
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I understand by changing the angle of the arm you are affecting squat etc etc but you just can't get away from the fact that fitting traction brackets with or without adj lower arms will affect pinion angle, oldcorollas have you ever fitted these???? because the amount you have to move the diff forward is quite alot! and I'm sure I wouldn't want to wind my cusco arms out that amount!!
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so your cusco arms are too short.. whats the big deal.. get longer ones
i'm not saying it has no effect. i'm saying (again) that to INSTALL THEM CORRECTLY, you need the CORRECT LENGTH LOWER ARMS..
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at the end of the day fitting traction brackets with standard bottom arms will work and will change the pinion angle by quite an amount.
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is that a contradiction? are you saying that the greatly changed pinion angle works?
you say that the standard lower arms work...
and then you say that they will greatly affect the pinion angle..
so which is it? the new weird pinion angle is correct? or the use of lower arms is suitable?
not trying to start a shitfight.. i'm just confused by your contradictions.. and the bodgy design of these products ... must be an AE86 thing
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Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 12:07
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on the note that you dont want rear grip in a drift car, this is bollocks. if the car is gripper at the rear, you just need to enter faster.
garth, most d1 cars these days have rear susp settings set up for maximum allowable grip (while still habing massivly stiff shocks)
this allows for faster actual road speed while drifting, faster entrys and so on,
however it is harder cause it takes more to get the car going.
for what its worth i dont run trac brackets but i have adustable rear arms, bottom arms are stock length and uppers are 5mm longer then stock forcing the pinion angle up a few degrees.
the extra grip is phernominal now!!
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 13:06
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| kingmick wrote on Mon, 31 October 2005 20:35 |
let a little secret out!the magic numer is 4!4degree's nose down for traction and were ever ajustment for what ever racing your doing.there is alot to it, if i do a track car i have from -20% to +20% ajustment then you have angle to degree's ajustment and length ajustment.then there is welcome to four link rear ajustment.my advice it to get it setup by someone that knows what they are doing,saves chasing your tail.
mick
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Wot Mick said!
Spot on mate.
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 21:53
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oldcorollas I too don't want a sh&tfight, I actually think the problem here is the difference between traction brackets, the ones I have have many different holes to put the lower arms into and they are on a slight arc, so If I lower my car and the diff pinion starts to tilt down, I can select from the many holes the one required to get the pinion angle correct, thus I don't need adj lower arms(even though I have them, but the main reason for getting these was fine tuning the rear end alignment and for the rod ends), my traction brackets are not like the whiteline one hole only type! So basically by fitting my traction brackets I have restord my pinion angle and I can use non adj to do this if I want(infact for many years I ran non adj arms and pinion angle was corrrect), by longer upper arms I mean I am running the same length arms top and bottom, I no longer have the short top arms, on a lowered car the shorter top arms exagerate the pinion anlge change as the car is lowered. When I said I didn't want to wind out my arms that much, not beacuase they are too short, so they don't run out of thread!
Also your last comment I'm saying that once the car is lowered and the pinion angle has changed(nose down) fitting my traction brackets with the standard arms DID greatly change the pinion angle, back to original, so I don't see where the contradiction is??? also I'm not sure how you worked out my new pinion angle was weird???? if the car is lowered and the nose points down then I fit traction brackets with standard arms(which I did for many years) and the pinion angle is lifted back to stock.....wheres the weird angle??? yes they are bodgy but I suppose they are a bolt on fix to correcting the pinion angle without having to go to adj arms.I fitted same length top and bottom so I don't have two arms going through different arcs!
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 31 October 2005 23:26
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:46 |
get springs that are too hard and reduce grip, then wind up shocks to match said stupidly hard springs (you know.. like 8-12kg for a spoontah)
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Did you know that Bob Holden's AE86 touring car team had a selection of springs that were used for different circuits, basically starting at 8kg/mm and going up to 12kg/mm?
The car also held lap records for quite a number of years with this setup at certain tracks.
I guess they must have had it all wrong too eh Stuart?
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 01:31
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he he
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 03:27
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My diff centre is hella noisey..
Does that have anyhting to do with the geometry being out?
i thought it was the Pinion bearings.
There is a strong noise on acceleration and deacceleration
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 03:54
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| AE86slut wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 10:26 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Sun, 30 October 2005 12:46 |
get springs that are too hard and reduce grip, then wind up shocks to match said stupidly hard springs (you know.. like 8-12kg for a spoontah)
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Did you know that Bob Holden's AE86 touring car team had a selection of springs that were used for different circuits, basically starting at 8kg/mm and going up to 12kg/mm?
The car also held lap records for quite a number of years with this setup at certain tracks.
I guess they must have had it all wrong too eh Stuart?
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no no.. just different setup for actual racing
springs should (typically) softest allowable to stop the body of car contacting the road, although with heavy sedans it is always a compromise.... anyway, you can read all about it somehwere else..
all i can say is that there is a very very big difference between a circuit car, with high cornering forces (over 1G), high speeds (say, 200-300), and high braking forces.....
compared to a dorifto car which will not have high cornering forces (since you are counter steering and the rear whels are sliding ), ie not high G, and not high speeds....
you are simply trying to compare "sports" with very different requirements...
in fact.. a good analogy is skiing
if you are snowplowing down a green run at perisher, you will not ned the same skis (length, stiffness, strength) that you would if you were doing a superG slalom run.... sure you can use the superG skis for snowplowing.... they will work.... but it doesn't mean they are the best skis for the job..
Edit: now i thin abotu it.. apart from length, super G skis will be fine for snowplowing, cos they are stiff and stable and will slide easily.. but a decent set of softer skis with a bigger sidecut will help you turn much easier.... oh wait.. dorifto is not about turning.... it's about not turning
now... if you were to take an AE86 with the same suspension setup as the touring cars... and DRIFT IT around the same tracks.... which will have the better lap time? and corespondingly, which will have higher cornering forces and require stiffer springs???
Team Dorifto.. Fuck Yeah
[Updated on: Tue, 01 November 2005 03:57]
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Registered:
January 2004
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 Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 04:03
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give me circuit racing anyday 
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 04:22
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| oldcorollas wrote on Sat, 29 October 2005 20:00 |
if you talk to the dorifto boys, they say you always need more grip (whilst still having springs far too hard for a real race car
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So Holden's car wasn't a "real race car" then. Ahhhh I see. This is interesting. 
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:05
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| cannonball wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 15:52 |
If we're talking about top level professionals here, i think you will actually find that top level D1 drivers will actually enter some corners at the same if not higher speed than a circuit car. therefore the same if not greater g forces will apply, the only difference is the cars attitude, and therefore the transmission of those G's through the car.
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they must have "special cars" then...
circuit racer is on the limit of traction. when they break traction, they go off the track.
if a dorifto car entered a corner at the same speed as a circuit car, but had it's wheels sliding, it would go off the track. if a V8 touring car locks up it's wheels entering a corner, it spears off the track....
are you trying to say that a dorifto car, using handbrake or 2 way LSD to get compression lockup, will brake faster than a circuit car on the limit of traction on all 4 wheels????
are you saying an F1 car (or ANY racing car.. or any CAR for that matter) will go faster around a corner by drifting as opposed to keeping within th etraction lmits of the tyres??
a car with SLIDING tyres CANNOT have the same forces generated as a tyre that is only slipping at it's ideal slip angle (what is it? 5-10deg depending on tyre compound and construction?)
you CANNOT say that a car sliding sideways is generating the SAME level of G forces as a car that is on the limit of adhesion.
thats like saying a top fuel dragster will go faster when it is spinning the tyres (more than the ideal slip ablge )... in real life when that happens.. the tyres go up in smoke and the car stops going forward as quickly...
I challenge you to prove that a highly developed dorifto car (D1 whatever) will generate the same G forces during a corner as a highly developed sedan circuit car.
this assertion that drift cars have more grip when sliding than a circuit car, and are faster than an equivalent circuit car (lets make it broad and say engine power, tyre size and weight), is complete and utter fantasy.
have you ever watched a circuit race where someone goes a bit wide and has to countersteer (drift) to keep iot on the track... and then the car behind passes easily on the inside??
sure drift is fun, and sure it is considered a "motorsport" by some, but to say that the forces generated are greater, and the lap times are lower....
you say it's faster? prove it. you say that the forces generated are unearthly (ie higher than equiv circuit car)? prove it. 
heh heh, drifting is is somthing like a cross between a bogan burnout comp and synchronised swimming
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Location:
Baulko Hillo
Registered:
April 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:20
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:05 |
you say it's faster? prove it.
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Of course this doesn't apply to most classes of racing, but take a look at any Japanese N2 class races from the mid eighties. There's a reason why Tsuchiya was so successful and blew everyone away with his style - he was letting the car drift around corners to overtake or take lines through the apex that were not possible while grip driving at the same speed. I'm not saying it's universally quicker, but it can be.
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heh heh, drifting is is somthing like a cross between a bogan burnout comp and synchronised swimming
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I'd have to agree with Youngy at this point:
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Stuart you're a funny guy. Bit of a wanker, but still funny.
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It's funny how all you circuit guys love to bag drifting and drifters, branding it as a fad, but as it's becoming a CAMS sanctioned motorsport next year, you may jsut find yourselves in the dark ages - somewhat akin to the knuckle-draggers who said 4 cylinders and rotaries would never be competitive as drag engines.
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:21
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Another good analogy is to watch a superbike rider on a big charge, sliding it into the corner, and getting handfulls of oversteer on the exit, all in an attempt to make up time in the closing laps. (I recall quite a number of riders used to use this technique to great success a couple of years ago, Aaron Slight for one). The tradeoff is tyre wear. This method will kill your tyres in a number of laps, which isnt really a good thing for circuit racing.
As you seem to know so much about drifting, Im sure you will know that drifting has absolutely nothing to do with lap times, or the number of laps completed. Therefore a drifter can put a lot more forces through through their tyres in the 5 or so laps they need to do in a session, whereas a cicuit racer has to be much kinder to make them last the full race distance.
[Updated on: Tue, 01 November 2005 05:33]
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:51
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hey why doesn't some one do a back to back at a circuit? a timed lap, one lap the car is drifting the next the car is driving...'normally', it would be interesting to see the outcome. same driver(obviously need someone good at both types of racing) same car...timed
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:57
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Drifting is slower.. but on a twisty tight downhill corner more speed can be carried through with slight oversteer.
Even on the tarmac evnets in rallying they are very sideways most of the time
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Location:
Sydney NSW
Registered:
July 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 05:58
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Cos drifting isnt about laps, its about high entry speed and high angle.
OC's argument that when one car is oversteering around the corner it is passed by another car that is "gripping" around the corner is correct, cos drifters do not care one iota about getting the power down to exit a corner.
Which makes me wonder why OC keeps referring to lap times, it just isnt relevant to drifting. But Im sure he knew that, after all, he seems to know so much about everything else.
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 06:11
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drifting is good fun to watch, no doubt about it. I wouldn't want to drift my ae86 due to it's piss weak axles......maybe I should and It would get my ass into gear about fixing that area
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Banned by his request
Location:
moved to tamworth
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 06:26
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| cannonball wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 15:52 |
If we're talking about top level professionals here, i think you will actually find that top level D1 drivers will actually enter some corners at the same if not higher speed than a comparable circuit car. therefore the same if not greater g forces will apply, the only difference is the cars attitude, and therefore the transmission of those G's through the car.
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so what you are saying is that dift guys would come of eastern creek at well over 220km/h sideways. ive recovered many a time from dropping a leg over at over 200km/h and i can tell you anyone that drifts at over 200km/h has a very very big death wish,because sooner or later it will come true.
now back to serious setting up.
mick
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 07:50
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| AE86slut wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:20 |
| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:05 |
you say it's faster? prove it.
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Of course this doesn't apply to most classes of racing, but take a look at any Japanese N2 class races from the mid eighties. There's a reason why Tsuchiya was so successful and blew everyone away with his style - he was letting the car drift around corners to overtake or take lines through the apex that were not possible while grip driving at the same speed. I'm not saying it's universally quicker, but it can be.
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there is a BIG difference between a tyre sliding a few extra percent, and SPINNING the tyres at a large angle of attack. i think he was not drifting as such... drift will let you move wider on the track, but in itself is not faster...
drift in circuit racing is powerslide....
drift as in dorifto is about high angles of attack, spinning the tyres lots, and stylishly linking turns.. no?
i like drift. i think it is a motorsport, but i think that any sport with subjective judging is difficult.. which is why i compare it to synchronised swimming (and the two car dualing thing.... why don't they have 5 or 10 cars on the track at the same time anyway )
so how is CAMS determining who is the winner? usually it's first past the post, but as said, it's not about driving fast, and not about number of laps... how do you regulate judging for "style"???? (please.. i'd like to know what mechanism there is for adjudicating disputes betweeen winners)
bikes are a bit diffferent... sliding rear wheeel into corner is a style thing, but if you have seen bikes stopping hard, you have seen them LIFT the rear tyre off the deck.. this is because there is so much front weight transfer, that i would suggest it is hard NOT to slide the rear tyres going into a corner on a bike...
and as for powersliding out... bike tyres accelerating out of corners is still a very complex subject. the angles that the tuyres are on makes for a complex dynamic contatc patch , where the outside and inside of contact patch are at different speeds.. but if a bike slid round a corner like dorifto boys do, the will fall down. ie, if they are smoking up the rear tyre around a corner.. they will fall down...
unless they are going much slower, and the bike is much more upright..
talk to tyre companies. there is an ideal slip angle at which the tyre makes the maximum grip. this is something like 5% or so for race tyres.. to get best grip you MUST be slipping the tyre that much. this means that when getting best grip, the tyre is slipping a little, and wears.
excessive tyre wear in circuit racing is due to overheating, making the rubber softer and wearing too fast... (a generalisation but nonetheless...)
spinning tyres and putting forces from tyre to track are completely seperate situations ....
a top fuel drag car only has to have tyres last about 5 seconds, yet they deliberately LIMIT the amount of slip the tyre gets to maximise traction.
if the tyres spn freely, they stop accelerating.... have you seen a top fueler spin tyres at about 1/3rd track? instead of accelerating at 3-5G's, they suddenl;y accelerate at maybe aroudn 1G, and they appear to suddenly hit a wall.... i used to see that very often.
in a circuit car, if they overpower the tyres and they spin freely around a corner, the rear of the car will slide out...
i remember seeing the ricciardelo (sp? ) car accelerating off the last corner at oran park lap after lap... getting light, lighting up the tyres and drifting toward the wall.. leaving long black lines... he was overpowering the tyres, spinning too much, but in that situation, if he had gotten offf the gas, the front weight transfer would have upset the balance of the car... he was not sideways drifting.
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Drifting is slower.. but on a twisty tight downhill corner more speed can be carried through with slight oversteer.
Even on the tarmac evnets in rallying they are very sideways most of the time
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slight is the word... abotu 5% or else you could go faster... sideways feels faster but is not.
rally is a fair bit different, and much closer to drifting in the wet.
ont he tarmac tracks, they actually slide very little.. montecarlo?? sometimes they deliberately slide to set up the entry angle to the next corner without having to reposition the car, but having 500Nm of torque and 4WD with supersoft tyres allows this...
on gravel and snow, it is a completely different dynamic to flat tarmac. you should know that.
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Cos drifting isnt about laps, its about high entry speed and high angle.
OC's argument that when one car is oversteering around the corner it is passed by another car that is "gripping" around the corner is correct, cos drifters do not care one iota about getting the power down to exit a corner.
Which makes me wonder why OC keeps referring to lap times, it just isnt relevant to drifting. But Im sure he knew that, after all, he seems to know so much about everything else.
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but you see, if they had such high entry speed (ie similar to circuit cars) and then slide.. they would go off the track. circuit car has HIGHER entry speed. the angle and the reduction of rear grip reduces the overall speed that can be carried into a corner... if they had so much grip, they wouldn't need to countersteer to stop the arse end spinning around
seee.. this all came about because ppl keep sayign that a drift car needs as much grip as a circuit car.
but as you say, exit speed is not important, thus regardless of high much grip the car is capable of, a drift car negates that by spinning the tyres and sliding the tyres at a greater angle than gives them maximum grip. simple as that
lap times are not relevant to drifting, because you are not worried abotu the speed of the car, only the style (entry speed, angle of attack etc). if a drift car generated as much G forces as a circuit car, and you could drift as fast as a circuit car, then they WOULD be timed.
it is simple that drifting with style SLOWS YOU DOWN... but going fast is not the point of dorifto, and i know that..
all i am trying to say is:
a drift car does not have the same amount of grip (ie force exerted ont he road) when it is sliding and countersteering at a high angle of attack, compared to if it was driven as a circuit car without sliding.
the simple maths is, if it was going as fast and had as high forces exerted, by F=MA, it would be just as fast as a circuit car.
but they are not and regardless of how you set up your dorifto car (for max circuit grip or whatever), as soon as you slide at greater then the tyres ideal slip angle you are REDUCING GRIP.
a circuit car at the limit of it's adhesion is twitchy. this is unsuitable for a drift car which neeeds to be "in control" when it is "out of control", so you set it up to have a lower ultimate grip, but be mroe stable.... like widening the powerband of a mator.. less peak, but more ddrivable...
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hey why doesn't some one do a back to back at a circuit? a timed lap, one lap the car is drifting the next the car is driving...'normally', it would be interesting to see the outcome. same driver(obviously need someone good at both types of racing) same car...timed
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because bro, it's not about lap times bro, it's about fooly sik style
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 08:23
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| Evan wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 16:57 |
Even on the tarmac evnets in rallying they are very sideways most of the time
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and just to clarify, rally tarmac drifting is at VERY LOW SPEED, ie tight twisty corner to corner point and shoot driving..
you DO NOT see a tarmac rally car drift into a corner at 150km/hr as it is not the fastet way to go..
but at low speeds, like 60km/hr (as a guess) the tradeoff between sliding sideways and not slowing down, as opposed to lining up the next corner entry angle, is not so large...
so at low speed, where you have tight corners, sliding will help angle of entry to a following corner. but it high speed, it is still slower...
when was the last time you saw a tarmac rally car deliberately throw the car sideways into a corner at 150??, or decided to drift mid-corner at high speed cos it's faster?
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 10:39
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because bro it's not about lap times bro, it's about fooly sik style
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ha ha ha ha ha
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Registered:
September 2005
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 11:59
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can we get back on topic please for fucks sake?!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Tue, 01 November 2005 14:49
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| bluehachi wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 22:59 |
can we get back on topic please for fucks sake?!
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topic has already been answered.
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 01:32
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 18:50 |
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hey why doesn't some one do a back to back at a circuit? a timed lap, one lap the car is drifting the next the car is driving...'normally', it would be interesting to see the outcome. same driver(obviously need someone good at both types of racing) same car...timed
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because bro, it's not about lap times bro, it's about fooly sik style
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Don't even bother seriously. Or if your interested go and download the demo of Live for Speed 2, practice learn how to drift in it then have a go at setting up the car for drift and circuit.
When I played I was probably the quickest drifter online, drift lap was around 1:35-1:40. Normal driving with drift setup (way to much oversteer on powerdown exits) would net a 1:28-1:30 lap time. Then circuit setup, softer rear end etc for better traction would net about a 1:26-1:30 lap time.
That game has probably one of the best physics engines around and in terms of drift was pretty similar to the way you'd control a car in real life.
The results would be very similar if not slower for the drift in real life.
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 02:01
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When I played I was probably the quickest drifter online, drift lap was around 1:35-1:40. Normal driving with drift setup (way to much oversteer on powerdown exits) would net a 1:28-1:30 lap time. Then circuit setup, softer rear end etc for better traction would net about a 1:26-1:30 lap time.
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So you're going to take results from a video game?.. and also, you're both a good drifter and track driver? 1.28 is pretty slow for a grip lap.. when people do 1.24s! (same car for those who havent tried  )
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Location:
Campbelltown
Registered:
November 2003
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 03:36
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We are going by games for suspension settings now!? 
Pretty sad for Toymods 
Would be interesting to know how many of the ppl that replied to this thread have actual "competitive" race or drift experience... Most are talking about what they read - Theory.
I think we should all increase our basic car control skills before we set up race/drift cars online
As for settings for Traction Brackets if your a good driver you will know (feel) the various changes you make. Till then use the one setting (at least the best one in theory ) and change according to your driving style.
BTW - My personal view is that competitive drifters have great car control and placement skills and achieve much higher corner entry speeds than circuit racers. However a drift car will never be as fast if timed around a given circuit.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 03:42
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| oldcorollas wrote on Tue, 01 November 2005 19:23 |
so at low speed, where you have tight corners, sliding will help angle of entry to a following corner. but it high speed, it is still slower...
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Yeh thats what i said..
Tight twisty roads, esp downhill corners.
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
June 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 03:46
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It depends on a corner..
I was coming up to the first turn at Oran at 175km/h and braking at about 50m.
I know a drift car on that course wouldn't be going that fast. so close to the turn
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Registered:
January 2004
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Wed, 02 November 2005 04:40
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pro_k I have always wondeered myself how many guys here actually race or just read 'crap fours and rotaries'!! I have been racing club/circuit cars since 1986, my first car back in 86 was a very nice rx3 I built up with a PP13B. it would be interesting to see how long some of these guys have been 'racing'(no the street doesn't count'!!!
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Location:
Bankstown
Registered:
August 2005
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Re: Settings for traction brackets AE86
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Mon, 07 November 2005 05:09
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This is what moto had to say about them:
Hey guys, I've been looking into purchasing a set of traction brackets for my AE86. Got a couple of questions though. One is what is up with the lift throttle problems while using an LSD with traction brackets? Is it only 2 way or are 1.5's affected as well? And the next thing is what happens with the upper arms? I would think you would need to relocate their mounting points as well to correct the roll center. I've recently been reading some books from Carroll smith so it’s gotten me thinking. [: P]
One last thing. I've also been looking into the purchase of an OS super lock 1.5. Would you recommend a different diff for road racing/drift? I have come to realize that I prefer the 1.5 for smoother racing lines.
I have used traction brackets in the past. I guess the design concept was to give added traction on acceleration force. What I did find though was that it started to create dynamic alignment changes that didn’t help stabilize the car in cornering and also (probably) added some binding effect as suspension arms no longer moved in parallel. I took it out as it never added performance really but changed the character of the car in the corners too much. More precisely, it gave slightly less manageable understeer upon exits (though ideally your car should slightly push under throttle for basic neutral handling, the effect was more balanced without them).
I don’t really know what you mean by lift throttle problems but in general both 1.5 and 2 way LSD designs are supposed to give locking force in both on and off throttle conditions where engine is loading the driveline. 1.5 is really a 2 way but designed with less deceleration locking force than acceleration. To most people, this is only a matter of preference. Generally, 1 way LSD gives better turn-in as rear wheels do not act against the forces of the car trying to steer, and is especially recommended for novice drivers who cannot manage to control the weight shifting of the car between fore and aft motions (in order to break front or rear loose as intended. The 2 way may be preferred for advanced drivers who seek a more stable character in delicate drifts at very high angles and speeds even at a sacrifice of some initial corner entry ease. 1.5 way is just designed to give something in between the two designs and is preferred by a lot of drifters as well as track cars.
I like the feel of a 2 way as it makes a challenge for the driver throwing the car around (especially in AE86…it makes the car so Spartan and solid in feel, kicking the driver’s *****to do things better), but 1.5 is always a great compromise and is definitely recommended for a multi-purpose car.
Taken from http://forums.club4ag.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=59153 &whichpage=8&ARCHIVE=
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