| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Northern Beaches
Registered:
April 2005
|
|
Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sun, 27 November 2005 15:05
|
 |
Hey guys,
Was just wondering if this setup would work in a FWD AE92 Hatch? I was talking to a friend and they said it isn't worth it because you won't get much boost out of it. Although through reading and researching i have found that you can put in GZE pistons and a different head gasket to lower the compression to around 8.9:1.
What are the pro's and con's of this conversion and what would need to be done to the block/head so it could take around 150-200kw atw to make this setup work? Has anyone done this before?
Just asking you guys to see if its worth it or not.
Cheers.
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sun, 27 November 2005 19:30
|
|
hey man, we've all dreamed it before but the easiest solution in the end is to just drop a 4AGZE then just make custom exhaust manifold for turbo and get it running nice without fucking with ECU, pistons, head, block, >$$$
I threw a ZE into my ae93 hatch for the very reason of a planned turbo conversion, but the supercharged torque makes driving so goddamn impressive that ive decided against it now
Straight out : its not worth turboing your 100kw, sell it and buy a ZE, you wont regret it 
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
January 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sun, 27 November 2005 23:21
|
|
get urself a ze and buy the turbo set up from parts for sale.
do it, do it now!
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 00:09
|
|
im going to go against the grain and say it is NOT worth buying a ZE to then turbo it.
The only difference between 4agze and 4age engines (ie, head & block only) is the pistons.
here's what i would do if it were me:
- get turbo bolt on goodies, (manifold, turbo, intercooler, bigger injectors, etc etc)
- get microtech LT10S
- get gze gearbox and matching CV shafts, aiming for an LSD box if possible
- get GZE flywheel and clutch if possible, but this isnt essential
- fit all of these to your current engine
I've proven that a stock smallport 4age cant take a decent amount of boost without going POP.... up to 10psi is quite safe with a good tune and will yeild up to and around 120kW atw.
If you have a few more $$ initially, then buy some brand new 4agze pistons from Toyota at the measly sum of $400 (retail) for the set, get some piston rings to suit (~$200max), and fit these to your engine. Wow - your engine is now a 4A-GZE!! 
You could also just do this when your 4age pistons go BANG or when you want more power.... either way
Cheapest turbo conversion evah.
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 00:17
|
|
|
totally agree with THE WITZL. too easy
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
November 2003
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 00:21
|
|
|
Doesn't the 100kw have slightly smaller ports than the AE92/AE101 GZE? And what GZE are we talking about? The AW11 GZE is a bigport engine isn't it?
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Northern Beaches
Registered:
April 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 01:00
|
|
|
Ok thankyou very much WITZL. What about adding cams etc.. Would this get me to 150fwkw? It doesnt seem that cheap would be around $5K wouldnt it? Which is pretty cheap i guess for a turbo conversion!
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 01:11
|
|
yep.... considering that buying a 4agze frontcut ALONE these days is around the $3k mark 
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
perth
Registered:
September 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 04:34
|
|
ae92 ZE front cut : <$2400
second hand nevo pulley, FMIC, SAFC, 88kw Cams : lag free 110fwkw
You can enjoy that power straight away until you can aford turbo manifold etc. It just depends on how technical and hands on you want to get. If you planning on doing all work youself it might be worth it, but unless youve done that sort of stuff before I would stick to a ZE engine conversion as a first major project...having so many bits and pieces to gather etc for the 100kw turbo (clutch, flywheel, ecu, total rewiring) conversion may end up getting the better of you no matter how optimistic it may sound now.
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 06:14
|
|
|
You are the king WITZLE. This is the exact path im taking but leaving the head completely stock and see how far i can go with it. I have ze 8.9 pistons and metal head gasket along with some other goodies (arp, blitz, apexi, vf23 ect. about $7k worth of stuff so far)i even have the lsd gearbox and i think ill be very happy with the power for about a fraction of the cost with a very safe 20psi running through it. I even opted for a bit thinner gasket to bump the comp prob around 9 for response and street drivability so no need for a supercharger.
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 06:46
|
|
stick to the stock 4A-GZE headgasket, as these are proven better quality than most aftermarket options and at above 25psi too
There isnt really much need to mess around with the head except to maybe one day replace valve springs to increase seating pressure (to fight the intake charge from the turbo) in my opinion - but of course things like cams etc will yeild higher power!
If you are looking for a mid-power streetable setup, a stock 100kW engine with gze pistons is perfect.
And it really isnt that hard! Its probably easier to do than a complete gze conversion 
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 10:23
|
|
| THE WITZL wrote on Mon, 28 November 2005 11:59 |
My opinion is firm, the smallport is the best 4age. 
|
werd
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 10:23
|
|
I concur with Witzl's unhealthy and somewhat scary love for the smallport I've done basically what he's outlined but mine's in a RWD setup.
My engine is a smallport block, bigport head and GZE pistons on a turbo setup. It all bolts together with zero hassles. I actually bought Witzl's setup and was planning on using it until i went mental and upgraded every component on the car before even using it 
Eddie.
|
|
|
Location:
syd- northen beaches
Registered:
June 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 13:17
|
|
lets say i have a stock 100kw smallport.
if i put in a pair of 86kw bigport cams, what power increase would i be lookin at in kw at the fly?
any help would be appreciated
cheers
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Mon, 28 November 2005 21:45
|
|
|
not to mention that a smallport gze conversion will also require an engineers certificate in nsw
|
|
|
Location:
sidoonie
Registered:
January 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Tue, 29 November 2005 03:35
|
|
|
hey witzl, i have just rebuilt my smallport (all bearings, rings, gaskets, timing belt changed, injectors cleaned properly) my pistons were still fine with 260,000k's on them according to my dad (mechanic of 25 years). how would the motor totally stock hold up with a turbo? including injectors?
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Tue, 29 November 2005 04:58
|
|
|
buy gze injectors and you should be fine up to 130kw/atw or there abouts
|
|
|
Registered:
November 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Tue, 29 November 2005 05:04
|
|
my opinion is definately TURBO the 100kw engine!!
chuck a decompression plate in it and away you go ...i know a few guys that have done it and love them to death!!!
i did that with my dato.....stuff goin ca i did a full blow through turbo conversion and it hauls arse!!
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 05:21
|
|
| >iap< wrote on Tue, 29 November 2005 16:04 |
chuck a decompression plate in it and away you go
|
DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS ADVICE ABOVE!!!
i seriously loathe the idea of "decompression plates".... they are stupid and non-sensical in my mind.
The stock compression is high yes, but with aftermarket engine management (common, a BRAND NEW LT10S microtech is ~$1300!!) and only moderate boost levels (keep it below 15psi) and a good intercooler.... she'll be right as rain!!
Like i said - i NEVER took the head of my stock 100kW engine..... i dont think i even checked the head bolt torque! in fact the most i pulled it apart was taking the sump off to replace the front main seal and oil pump gasket.
Kojak,
yeah the 100kW pistons are a engineering wonder unto themselves! ive heard from a few people now about their high km smallports having perfect pistons upon rebuilding.
In your case, you'll just need the bigger injectors, aftermarket ecu, good sized intercooler, turbo manifold and turbo... and all the little bits following on from that
your motor will need the bigger injectors to go above 5-6psi boost... so with gze injectors i'd give it about 130rwkW before i'd start worrying about it (with good tuning of course!)
Enjoy lads!!
|
|
|
Registered:
November 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 05:51
|
|
"DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS ADVICE ABOVE!!!"
why would you say that!!!!!
.........i could deffinately say the same about your info but dont....as everyone has their own opinion i didnt put down anyone else???? why are u??
i run a decompression plate in my engine....some of the most powerful cars around have them in!!!! with no worries
its your "opinion" that the 100kw motor doesnt need one....so be it....my mate 100kw engine does have one and its perfect!!!!
f
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 05:56
|
|
| >iap< wrote on Wed, 30 November 2005 16:51 |
"DO NOT LISTEN TO THIS ADVICE ABOVE!!!"
why would you say that!!!!!
.........i could deffinately say the same about your info but dont....as everyone has their own opinion i didnt put down anyone else???? why are u??
i run a decompression plate in my engine....some of the most powerful cars around have them in!!!! with no worries
its your "opinion" that the 100kw motor doesnt need one....so be it....my mate 100kw engine does have one and its perfect!!!!
f
|
why decompress the motor more compression makes the car nicer to drive off boost making it feel less doughy off boost. If your only running 10psi or so with a t28 then 130kw/atw should be fine as long as the tuning is correct and like it was said above a good i/c is in place. Worst case senario you melt a piston big deal you spend $400 on some gze forgies and put them in thats the only difference between the 100kw 4age and the smallport gze's
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 05:58
|
|
|
How much would you be game to boost the Silvertop without changing the pistons?
|
|
|
Registered:
November 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 06:07
|
|
[/quote]
why decompress the motor more compression makes the car nicer to drive off boost making it feel less doughy off boost. If your only running 10psi or so with a t28 then 130kw/atw should be fine as long as the tuning is correct and like it was said above a good i/c is in place. Worst case senario you melt a piston big deal you spend $400 on some gze forgies and put them in thats the only difference between the 100kw 4age and the smallport gze's[/quote]
just goin off my personal experiences as you are......
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
|
Registered:
November 2005
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
|
Registered:
November 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 06:41
|
|
yeh your cool....obviously nothin better to do aye.....
great life mate.....
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 06:42
|
|
|
hahha im on holidays i dont want to be doing anything
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 09:18
|
|
yes... running compression plates is cool, because fudging up the combusion chamber dynamics that a few highly paid engineers worked thousands of hours designing to yeild the optimal performance definitely something you want 
horses for courses.
p.s. What 1/4 mile has "your mate" run?
Me = 14.114 at 95mph. Turbo 100kW, 10psi.
|
|
|
Location:
sidoonie
Registered:
January 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 13:11
|
|
nice witz! yeh its on an sx hatch so itll be fun when its done, a lsd box needs to go on
my mate turbo'd his n14sss on stock pistons on 8psi he ran a 14.1, his car dosent have much traction in 1st or 2nd so im guessing the lsd box would be the best thing to do
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Wed, 30 November 2005 21:58
|
|
if youre that worried by the compression you could just run a thicker headgasket instead of a plate that way you wont destroy the "combusion chamber dynamics" that witzl mentioned but you'll drop the compression enough to make a difference.
cheers
daniel
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Thu, 01 December 2005 03:00
|
|
|
that.... AND the stock 4ag** headgasket is well proven to be capable of receiving around 25psi without a drama - far more reliable than aftermarket "upgrades"
|
|
|
Location:
St James, Perth
Registered:
June 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Thu, 01 December 2005 06:19
|
|
I read somewhere that the GZE block has 7 'ribs' on the sides for strength, as opposed to the GE's 3 or 4? I can't exactly remember.
1 extra rib = 20atwkw!!!
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Thu, 01 December 2005 09:28
|
|
sorry my bad
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
|
Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Thu, 01 December 2005 21:42
|
|
well.
what a thread.
go with the witzl. he actually knows what hes talkign about and i agree 100% except the 20v is better 
the standard c series box can handle a bit of power though. i run one behind my ze in my aw11 with no issues. in fact the closer ratios makes it quicker than a factory supercharger.
however i think 200kw will be getting near its limits.
a decomp plate? my first though was BODGE JOB. 2nd why?? you dont need it.
heres something to think about....
compression is GOOD. you want as much compression as yo can get imo. of course you need the i/c and tuning to match it though....
certainly for a road car you want more cmpression. iv been for aride in a 200kw ae101 with 8:1 compression and it was a bastard. slow as off boost and an animal on boost. not what you want for the road!!!
and as for the silvertop turbo.... with GOOD tuning then yes you can run boost. id say 10psi.
my next engine for the aw11 will be a stock silvertop with an sc14. i expect no issues
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 05:29
|
|
| Mr Revhead wrote on Fri, 02 December 2005 08:12 |
well.
what a thread.
go with the witzl. he actually knows what hes talkign about and i agree 100% except the 20v is better
the standard c series box can handle a bit of power though. i run one behind my ze in my aw11 with no issues. in fact the closer ratios makes it quicker than a factory supercharger.
however i think 200kw will be getting near its limits.
a decomp plate? my first though was BODGE JOB. 2nd why?? you dont need it.
heres something to think about....
compression is GOOD. you want as much compression as yo can get imo. of course you need the i/c and tuning to match it though....
certainly for a road car you want more cmpression. iv been for aride in a 200kw ae101 with 8:1 compression and it was a bastard. slow as off boost and an animal on boost. not what you want for the road!!!
and as for the silvertop turbo.... with GOOD tuning then yes you can run boost. id say 10psi.
my next engine for the aw11 will be a stock silvertop with an sc14. i expect no issues
|
Yes this is true, but you have to be careful on how you treat them. I stuffed the original MR2 C52 not long after the gze conversion, she went bang, then i stuffed a Corolla C52 after about 2 years, was getting a bit noisy and crunchy, now ive got a C56 in there and it seems to be holding up fine. I think the weakest links are the n/a axles and the tulip joint that joins them to the output shafts on the gearbox.
|
|
|
Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 05:48
|
|
you are one of the few i have ever come across that has killed a c series with power!
2 years isnt bad.. how did you drive?
mines been dragged a few times and gets a bit of a hiding... no issues yet. but yes, again think about how youll be using it.
and as far as the axles go.. no probs for me yet... but i do know of wuite a few who have broken them so i agree with you there
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 07:56
|
|
i think it has a lot to do with torque delivery Wazza.... the supercharger will give an instantaneous "snap" of torque when you apply right-pedal... whereas a turbo will build that torque gradually.
thanks for the support champ 
|
|
|
Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 08:08
|
|
gradually being a relative thing
actually the ones iv heard breaking most were on turbo conversions.
so its either down to the 200+hp or the clutch dumps
i fully expect to kill an axle or two in january when i drag the aw for the first time
hey... dont wink at me in public!
oh the other thing not covered here is clutch... again depends on ya use. iv got a brass button plate and stock cover. seems to work very well. got a bit of shudder though.
|
|
|
Registered:
July 2005
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 09:10
|
|
| Mr Revhead wrote on Fri, 02 December 2005 08:42 |
and as for the silvertop turbo.... with GOOD tuning then yes you can run boost. id say 10psi.
my next engine for the aw11 will be a stock silvertop with an sc14. i expect no issues
|
i wouldnt run more than 8psi in a standard silvertop...
cheers
daniel
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Fri, 02 December 2005 09:30
|
|
| SR20 trueno wrote on Fri, 02 December 2005 20:10 |
| Mr Revhead wrote on Fri, 02 December 2005 08:42 |
and as for the silvertop turbo.... with GOOD tuning then yes you can run boost. id say 10psi.
my next engine for the aw11 will be a stock silvertop with an sc14. i expect no issues
|
i wouldnt run more than 8psi in a standard silvertop...
cheers
daniel
|
why?
it's been done sucessfully before?
|
|
|
Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sat, 03 December 2005 00:22
|
|
|
I dont launch my car very often and no where near as hard as it can launch cos i know stuff will break. As for the axles, its not the actual axles that will brake but the tulip joints that will brake apart if the bolts come slightly loose or they are old, ive snapped a couple into bits. I think the best bet is to go for a E series box as they are nearly unbreakable and the axles are a much better design.
|
|
|
Location:
Toronto, Downtown
Registered:
September 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sat, 03 December 2005 00:24
|
|
|
the difference in the size of the driveshafts is massive
|
|
|
Location:
nelson, new zealand
Registered:
October 2004
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sat, 03 December 2005 00:36
|
|
yes they are a lot stronger.
personally i love the closer ratios of the c series....
but im also fully expecting to break stuff!
as long as it does it with an impressive bang on the strip and not in the middle of night in the wrong part of town 
certainly for the original posters application (200+rwhp) an e series is they way
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Turbo'ing a 100KW 4AGE in an AE92
|
Sat, 03 December 2005 09:19
|
|
|
c series would be better geared for a 4agte, probably wouldnt handle my feral abuse for long though....
|
|
|
