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Toymods member
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 To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 02:06
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Hey guys,
Sorry I haven't been on here for a while, but I have a question for you all... If I have a lowered suspension on my RAV (which I do now, a Koni setup 2½" lower-front, 1½" lower-rear), and I want to make the chassis stiffer with less roll, what is better - sway bars or strut tower bars? Or both?
Any thoughts appreciated. Any advice moreso. 
Cheers.
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 02:22
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swaybars/torsion bars/stabiliser bars (whatever you want to call them) prevent excess independent movement of each suspension unit (when one susp arm compresses, the other extends)... ie; limits roll
tower braces help reduce the flex experienced by the chasis due to cornering loads, and give you better steering response.
ed
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 02:38
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Ok, so say I have a strut tower bar on the front end and a sway bar on the rear?
The reason I ask is because my rear end (being a 5-door) makes a lot of noise when the body twists, like when going in and out of driveways, etc. It happens when the body is forced to take one wheel at a time out of one surface onto another, and has to move on all axes (left-right, up-down and side-side). The back door is a problem, because it's right at the tail end of the vehicle. The guide (being plastic) on the left side that holds the door in the one spot, instead of moving up and down on the single hinge that it has, makes an awful noise if it isn't lubricated with dry-lube or some other shit to stop it squeaking, but that's the only part of the car that seems to be affected by the body roll.
So if the back half of the vehicle has to have the suspension parts movement-limited, a sway bar is best? And if I'm turning into tight corners and just generally want better handling on my vehicle all-round, a strut tower bar is best?
Just wanna make sure I have those right.
Cheers.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 02:55
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Andrew, what is your aim - show car, circuit racer, off road vehicle? I'm confused. Please don't take that the wrong way.
Strut braces reduce movement of the strut towers (and therefore struts) so that your steering geometry isn't grossly altered mid corner, resulting in more predictable handling. If you want even more structural rigidity, I would suggest a well designed/constructed roll cage. In my opinion, for a street vehicle with unaltered power, it's probably a bit of overkill. But it suspect it might look the goods at a show.
Sway bars are there to reduce body roll thru a corner but also fine tune the handling charcteristics of the vehicle. By altering the thickness of sway bars, one can dial in more or less understeer/oversteer.
By the way your suspension shouldn't be making that much noise. I would get that sussed out before proceeding.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 03:07
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I think you have it the wrong way around big dude.
The strut brace stops your body from flexing.
Swaybar will minimise mid-corner roll, and also improve the car's agility...
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 07:06
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gt, nark, you both said the same thing dudes!! 
gt's got the right question tho... what do you want to do with the car/4wd?
why's the thing squeeking? at the doors? youre not going to fix a full body flex (which is probably what youre gettin driving diagonally through a depression) with a single tower brace. they'll help reduce independent movt b/w towers, thus keeping your geometry right at the wheels, but it wont stiffen up the whole chassis. in fact, just thinking, if you go and whack heavier torsion bars all round, youll actually increase the flex through the chassis due to the inflexability of your suspension, and probably make the squeaking worse.
esentially, heavier torsion bars will reduce physical body roll (the tilt you appreciate from inside the cabin whilst conering) but will put extra force through the chasis in situations such as driving on uneven ground.
tower braces will help keep the geometry of the individual shock / strut towers correctly aligned during heavy cornering, by reducing the flex of the body at those points ONLY, not the whole chasis
if, by any chance, you want to go off road and actually use the 4wd in rock crawling, crazy 4wd stuff, i wouldn't suggest spending money upgrading the torsion bars, but instead, invest in some disconnect links.
i doubt it tho!
cheers
ed
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 07:38
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| ed_ma61 wrote on Wed, 15 May 2002 5:06 PM |
gt, nark, you both said the same thing dudes!!
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I was talking to the big dude, not the giant dude.
We both posted our replies at about the same time so I didn't see the giant dude's post till after I replied. 
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I supported Toymods
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 07:55
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I didn't think you meant me Nark. 
By the way great job with the new forums!
What is the rear suspension setup on one of those anyway? Is it struts or double wishbone/trailing arm?
You might do better to do something about the shitty hinges holding the door togetheror do some thing about the guide. Buy one from Toyota, take it to an engineer and tell them to make it about 100 times stronger. Seems more sensible to me than to install a full roll cage just to stop a squeak.
Aren't these door noises just part and parcel of owning a 4WD? Everyone I've been in makes noises in the tailgate.
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 13:59
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Hi guys,
Sorry I haven't replied earlier - ISP problems. 
Ok, I've taken in all you've had to say so far, and I'd like to clear up a few points...
1) The suspension system (I believe) is a Macpherson strut with trailing arm, but I can't confirm that, because I have nothing to confirm it.
2) The suspension system isn't making the noises - the rear door's guides is the culprit. The only way I can alleviate this problem to this point is with dry-lube or WD-40.
This car's destiny (for my use) is to be a show car that will be driven, not left to sit in a showroom. Therefore it's to look at it's best most of the time, that includes whatever I put on it (be it swaybars or strut tower bars). It's intended use was never to go off-road, so to speak, nor be taken around a racetrack (although one lap couldn't hurt, I suppose. )
It will have an AVO Turbo kit added, so it will have it's use for quarter-mile drags as well. This is where the suspension system comes into play. I figured the less roll it had and the lower I could have it (with a stiffer suspension setup), the better it would handle with minimal roll and also minimal body twist (which was my primary objective).
I don't mind the fact that once the chassis is stiffer that when it drives over uneven ground it will be harder on the rest of the car too - the whole point is to not take it over uneven ground in the first place. Bumps and pot-holes won't be that much of a problem, but speed humps might be, so in that regard I'll have to take more care.
Essentially all I want to do is make the car handle better with minimal twisting in the chassis. No, I don't want to install a roll-cage, as that WOULD be overkill. I just want a stiffer, more solid ride that handles turns better, etc. Lower suspension has done this to a point so far, and I'm looking to enhance this.
From here I'm looking for a setup solution so I know what to implement and how. Any suggestions...
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:08
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Does your car understeer? If so, a larger rear swaybar will improve it.
Strut braces front and back will help make it more accurate in how you point the car...
It's all really up to what you want your car to handle like...
Also, a drag setup is totally different from a track setup... You'll have to choose what you want...
Is a Rav4 constant 4WD?
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:23
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There's no noticeable understeer - it handles average for now.
Every RAV4 brought from Japan to Australia is constant 4WD, unlike the Jap versions and the US versions as well, being either 2 or 4 wheelers.
It will be used 90% of the time on the road, and about 5% of the time on show, and the other 5% of the time will be in quarter-mile drags. That is my intended use, and I need to find out which setup would be best suited for all of the above.
I want it to sit low (which is done already), corner better than average and have little or no body roll.
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:27
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Well you kill the body roll by putting (bigger) swaybars in. But this will have a detrimental effect at the drags... You could remove them when you go to the drags...
Strut braces will help at the drags, but will do nothing to counter body roll...
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:31
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Ok, so what you're saying is there's no real permanent solution?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
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 Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:35
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hehe Well, like everything, any mod to your suspension will be a compromise... You lose something to gain something else. 
You just have to find the best compromise that best meets your requirements... 
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:39
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Ahhh, shit... I'm screwed.
I got absolutely no idea of what to do and how to go about it. 
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 14:54
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hehe Well to answer your question about swaybar vs strut brace, I'd say go for the swaybar.
Now, I'm guessing that the Rav4 is a 50:50 torque split front:rear. If so, a drag setup would be similar to a FWD, get the back hard so that the front wheels get as much grip as possible. This would require stiffer springs (which you should have) and firmer shocks. This setup is also good for normal driving (except that normal driving requires both front and back to be balanced).
If you only stiffen the back, you may get a lot of oversteer.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 15:00
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Ok, so my earlier suggestion of rear swaybar and front strut bar? How feasible is this, of all the combinations one could have for this setup?
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 15:17
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I'd just go with larger swaybars front and back.. I don't think you need a strut brace. Not yet at least.
A larger rear swaybar alone could be a bit dangerous, it will induce more oversteer. That can be a good thing or a bad thing, depending on how you drive...
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Toymods member
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 15:24
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Also too, bear in mind the fact that this RAV will have different rolling-stock as well, which will be 255/50R17's over the current 215/70R16's.
Larger, fatter tyres will also make a bit of a difference too?
(to answer an earlier question, it's struts all-round, btw)...
Sorry to be a pain in the ass with all these questions...
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 15:30
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Larger tyres will make a difference, mainly due to the thinner and stiffer sidewalls. It made an incredible difference for me. I went from 195/65R14 to 215/40R17 (front) and 235/45R17 (back). Steering was much more accurate, plus the stiff sidewalls make the car so much more controllable on the limit. Grip is lost a lot more progressively (this may also be due to the different tyre compound).
255 all round might be a bit big for a Rav4. How much does it weigh? You might find yourself aquaplaning a lot in the wet...
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 15:42
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The 255's I'm putting on the RAV are a Plus-2 fitment for the make. I'm told that the Bridgestone D-680's that will be fitted are probably the best to fit on my car in that size.
The RAV4 only weighs 1179kg's (according to the RTA rego papers I got), so it's not like it's a heavyweight. The tyres it's wearing now are the stock Dunlop Grand-Trek's, which are shit as far as I'm concerned, and now I think of it, sometimes I do get a bit of understeer in the wet, but I attribute this problem to the shit tyres. 
Ok, so now, having taken into account the new rolling stock that will be on the RAV, you are still of the same opinion that sway bars will be better, or does it differ?
I haven't a clue with these setup's, and that's where I need all this help. The more I can learn about them, the better. 
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 15 May 2002 16:03
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Oh shit - then we're all in trouble... 
So how do your tyres handle then, if you have 235's on the rear and 215's on the front, up from 195's? Do you get the aquaplaning effect on your ride?
Apparently the water evacuation is quite good on these tyres, so I gotta take someone's word for it, albeit from a tyreman's point of view... 
I'll ask the local guy what he thinks of this setup later on today when I get a chance.
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Cautionary note
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Wed, 15 May 2002 22:39
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I really don't think I'd go testing the handling limits of your Rav. Whilst theoretically it is likely to be an understeerer, you are more likely to discover your 4WD is a roller over, due to their higher centre of gravity and rather narrow wheel base. Sure, you can make the suspension stiffer, but that only means you will roll at higher speeds. This is something that is close to my heart - not only do I work in an ICU which receives spinal pts, a close friend of mine was rendered quadriplegic when his 4WD rolled over.
At the end of the day, I think you are going to have to accept that the Rav4 ain't a handler. For show purposes, it might be neccessary to make some token gestures to show you've done something.
Don't believe the rego paper weight - my car supposed ly weighs 1150....weighbridge says 1280.
The back of your car will always make noise as it effectively is an unbraced open ended box. Some sort of bracing may help, but short of a cage, I can't imagine anything that will look acceptable. I think a cage would look good, and it can still be legal, but it would be a horrific expense.
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 01:20
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My car is fine, the front is thin, and I have Eagle F1s which are pretty much the best wet weather tyres around.
The rear I don't really care about... I have traction problems in the dry anyway...
But really, I haven't had a problem with aquaplaning on my setup.
GT, yeah, it's true that they like to roll. I wouldn't be pushing a Rav4 too hard either.
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Location:
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May 2002
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 01:43
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err max nothing beats an oversteering fwd with stiff rear end ...err i dont have one ...*whistles innocently as her walks off*
but seriously. with any 4wD you should run same tyre width all around, otherwisey ou wil quickly wear the viscous coupling in your transfer out. because the different width tyres give different loadings on the coupling and wear it very quick by overheating the silicon inside of it. rav4 is constant 4wd but is biased towards fwd. so it will understeer standard, it uses a double link rear end i think because it has diff cradle and intependant shocks to the coils.
michael.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 02:23
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Ok, I think some points have to be made here, GT... firstly I'm not the type to go round hooning in my RAV. Those days are long gone, and so are the chances to do it. Secondly, the wheelbase and track are a tad longer and wider than you would think - it's not like I'm riding around in a Daihatsu Terios or anything (shit on wheels, with the ride height ridiculously high, and yes these are more prone to tipping at high speeds than any RAV would be). I'm a member of the rav4world.com forum, and I haven't heard of anyone in the WORLD tipping over a RAV.
Remember this RAV is lowered, and right now it quite happily takes long sweepers at 100km/h and it hardly moves in the lateral sense. The idea here is to make the chassis stiffer so it can utilise the suspension it's just been given for a more practical purpose, such as quarter mile runs.
Don't knock it till you try it - the RAV doesn't sit that high off the ground, even as stock. The wheelbase and track are very comparable to a full-size 4WD, except the RAV is a compact version of this.
This isn't a car to sit there and flog the crap out of, and it just won't happen. I intend to take very good care of my RAV4 and present it at shows and such, but the ONLY time I'd be doing anything like sinister to it is on a drag, and that wouldn't be that often anyway. This project is more a cruiser than a V8 beater (even though it would eat V8's for brekky, when all the mods are completed).
I'm going down the street to have a yarn to someone who might be able to help me out with this in a more practical fashion. As Gladiator once said "the time for half-measures and talk is over", and I just want to take this ugly bag of snakes and have them laid out straight for me.
Thanks for all your help and advice guys, appreciated.. and GT, lighten up on the concern bro... I know this vehicle isn't like a normal car, and in no way handles like one either. I'm just after a suspension setup that will best suit the purposes that this RAV will endure.
I'll be back on later to report what the local guy says about it.
Cheers.
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Location:
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 02:50
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err have you thought about how your drivetrain is going to take to repeated launches by bolting a turbo on to the motor?
=]
michael
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Club President
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 Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 03:43
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Bigfella,
Suspension is one of those fun things nobody ever agrees on ! 
Firstly in regards to quarter mile time sway bars will do little to help you. (Or hinder you) Therefore for the benefit of removing suspension twist they would be considered a good idea. The size ratio from front to rear I have no idea on a 4WD. I'm going to offend the GT4 guys here but look towards something like that as your basis for descision. A 4WD specialist will probably not know how to give you the result you want.
Strut braces will theoreticlly be of minor benefit in your quarter mile quest. However a stiffer body will twist less resulting in a more even weight distribution to the tires and hence to the tar. A full cage and/or seam welding would be more effective but probably not practicle in your case. (you've already had it painted)
In a net shell Sway bars add rigidity to the suspension, Strut bars add ridgiity to the chassis.
As for a QTR mile set up the main difference is not the strut bars and sway bars. They focus on the side to side movement of your vehicle when cornering and pretty much just sit there when travelling in a straight line.
A Good quarter needs a good launch so it is actually shock and spring rates that will be what gets your attention should you go searching for that elusive tenth of a second.
As far as shows go...People love mods strut braces and swaybars seem to be a bonus ! Most people don't really know what they do anyway !
Good luck with it.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 04:48
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Big Fella,
I think you've got me wrong. I'm not knocking it - I believe it's an interesting and unique project.
Have a very clear aim about what you want out of the Rav functionally....if it's mostly a town cruiser, then set it up as that. If you are going to the drags every Friday night, then a drag setup is called for. For show, do what you would have ordinarily done, but bigger, shinier and showier!
Cheers Dave.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Thu, 16 May 2002 14:00
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Alright guys, I've decided on what I'm going to do for an all-round setup, providing it isn't detrimental to the rest of my rolling stock/suspension setup.
I'm submitting an enquiry with Whiteline as to what they have for the RAV for rear swaybar replacements/additions. I don't know if the RAV already has swaybars front and rear as standard, but I think the newer ones do. I'm also going to enquire about a front strut bar (I have a connection with AVO Turbo, who have a salesperson that specialises in Cusco STB's). Apparently you can get these strut tower bars in 3 grades - Stainless, Titanium Alloy and Carbon Fibre. Understandably, the carbon fibre bar is the most expensive  , so I'm enquiring on the stainless bar.
Thanks for all your input guys, appreciated. GT, I'll never get you wrong. Everything that's going on this vehicle is designed for showability and most of all practicality.
Cheers.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Tue, 21 May 2002 14:57
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I emailed some guy in SA earlier, from a place called "Car Toys" (www.cartoys.com.au). Out of all the people I emailed about swaybars for the RAV4, these guys are the only ones to reply with a solution for both FRONT and REAR.
Apparently the RAV4 comes with a single front swaybar (20mm dia.) as stock, and nothing on the rear. The uprated one from Car Toys is 24mm, while the rear they sell is a 20mm dia. fitting.
I contacted K-Mac earlier about swaybar options, and they only had a 24mm uprated version for the front, and nothing to fit for the rear.
The brand that Car Toys provide is called MaxiTune or Exess MotorSport - anyone ever heard of these brands? If so, can you give me a recommendation of the quality of these.
Thanks guys,
Cheers.
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 Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Wed, 22 May 2002 11:37
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Ok, for some clarification (and to make this a bit simpler), I got an email from K-Mac today saying that their Front swaybar comes in at $225 for the RAV, while this other one (which I had queries on) is only $165 from Car Toys in SA.
Aside from K-Mac's well-established reputability, would this mean that the Car Toys swaybar is just underpriced or that K-Mac's swaybar is just a better swaybar attracting a higher price?
Any feedback here would be nice...
Cheers.
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Re: To sway or not to sway?
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Tue, 28 May 2002 15:36
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UPDATE: (Looks like I'm talking to myself here... insanity?) 
Car Toys got their info from someone who's talking out of their arse. The solution they have for the RAV is based on the newer models (5/00 onwards), not the older models. These would not suit due to the completely different chassis setup and location of the mounting points for the sway's.
K-Mac got back to me and said they'd be happy to get a measurement off my car so they can have an option for 5-door RAV rear swaybar fitments. I told them I was in Ballina, and they can only do it if I'm in Sydney. Pass....
So at this point, it looks like a K-Mac 24mm swaybar (front) and an AVO/Cusco stainless front STB. At least the front will be rock-solid...
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