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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 02:36
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firstly i want to find out something 4 sure.
a sa63 celica is just a ra65 celica with a smaller (2s-c 2L carbied vs 2.4L efi engine) carbied engine made 1 year earlier. it this correct?
i was looking at the engine swap table and saw that a 3SGTE will fit into a ra65.
up untill now i wanted to go 4 the 1g gte swap but am now wondering if i could make an awd sa63. can anyone shed some light on the subject for me.
cheers
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 02:46
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Yes you can fit the 3S-GTE in the SA63 but forget the AWD!
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 04:28
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In short, a 3S-GTE swap will cost about twice as much as a 1G-GTE conversion.
It's a much better swap, but takes a lot more time and money.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 05:30
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But considdering you have most of the parts required already it will work out a little cheaper than normal!
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Banned member
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Brisbane
Registered:
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 10:39
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why is it so much more expensive than a 1ggte ?...you still have to provide for EFI
with a 1ggte you have to get engine mounts welded
and with a 3sgte you just have to run coil packs instead of a distributor and use a rwd intake or custom fab one up....easy
it does not sound very expensive at all, i have just purchased a sa63 and intend on doing the same project, i will be welding together a few intakes on various designs and getting it all on a flow tested
i have designed a intake on paper with 2 fuel rails and 8 injectors, 4 being one set for methanol and the other for optimax fuel, these will be staged and the methanol must be wired so that i can turn it on and off for regular street driving if i get that far as it is being purpose built for drag racing if i can get it street registered then that is great too...anyway a bit off subject
my advice is dont listen to anybody on these forums they are all biased in opinions (even me) 
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 10:48
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methanol needs 3 times more fuel flow than normal
plus im not to sure on efi but on carbies methanol leaves a salty residue which needs to be cleaned often
havin 2 row of injectors means twice the chance for a leak
yr better of testin and tunin with one set of injectors big ones
then get a decent aftermarket ecu and have 2 programs
one for the street the other for avgas or c16 racin fuel
havin a daily street driven car then wanting to drag race it and get good times sometimes is a hassle if u r plannin to run optimax or methanol
goin from optimax to say avgas with octane booster is easier
goin to c16 is even better it can handle alot of boost b4 it starts pingin only prob is it is 120 or so bucks for 20 lt
there are many fast cars out there and they dont run methanol
so maybe do some investigating b4 hand
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 11:37
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cool1 what do you mean i have most of the parts already.
does it basically bolt straight in or something.
how much power could i expect at the wheels from a stock 3sgte
what would it cost me for the engine, gearbox and ecu etc or a gt4? frontcut
what would the 1ggte cost and what hp at the wheels does it have
cheers
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 11:52
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What I mean is you already have the engine mounts, bellhousing, gearbox? and sump that you need to do a 3S-GTE conversion!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 12:27
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i have a sa63 celica which is stock.
i bought it 10 weeks ago and as far as i know it is totally stock. i dont know how to find out whick gearbox is in it etc. it does have a 2s-c engine which was replaced at the end of 98 but thats as much as i know.
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 12:31
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I think the SA63 has a W50 box  This box isnt as strong as a W58 but it will work!
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 12:35
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The SA63 uses a W55 box
Methanol does need about 3 times the feeding of petrol, but then NOTHING can beat it for cooling intake temps (well, nitrous comes close I spose!). However, the damned stuff is harsh on aluminium, that'd be why it wasn't kind to your carbs. The usual trick is to have one set of injectors, run methanol at the track, then drain the tank and change the program and flush it out with petrol for a few minutes when you're finished. Having a separate fuel system + injectors for petrol, then swapping the injector plugs (or using relays), and changing the program again would be a good idea for street running, simply because 2000cc injectors+petrol does not usually make for good street running, especially not with a cheap nasty microtech or similiar!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 12:57
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There was an argument on these forums a while ago about what was better for cooling(methanol or water) and from what I remember the outcome was water!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:22
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would this conversion be worth the trouble or should i just track down a ST185 gt4
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:30
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Depends what you want to do! You can forget about the AWD part!
I'm doing a 3S-GTE conversion into a TA22 at the moment! Its not too hard!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:40
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it will prolly cost me 5+k for the conversion or 13k for a newer celica. im thinking that the same engine AWD is better than rwd. + the fact i will have to get a car to drive during the conversion.
my gearbox has to go no matter what as it has heeps of slot and rexerse is hard to get into.
what sort of 0-100 times and 400m times do you think id pull just with stock 3sgte in street trim (7 inch wide street tires etc)
cheers
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:41
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3S-GTE in RWD or AWD format? This will also depend on what Gen 3S you get!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:41
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what would be stopping me from getting the awd system working?
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:42
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| bozwon wrote on Wed, 09 April 2003 23:41 |
what would be stopping me from getting the awd system working?
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Money
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:43
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rwd and the easiest(most common) model 3sgte
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:46
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Well I'm using a ST205 3S but someone else on these forums is using the ST185? and hes getting 260kw at the wheels and does mid 12 second passes with just higher boost!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:50
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what would a st205 3s front cut cost me
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:52
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I got mine for $3000
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:56
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was it just a gt4 frontcut.
what gearbox did that have
where did you get it
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 13:58
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Yes it was a Front cut.
It came with the 5 speed AWD box.
I got it from Rolin Imports.
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 14:11
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Yep it looks like a 185! Its not a 205 thats for sure!
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Wed, 09 April 2003 23:55
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Basically:
1G-GTE:
Custom engine mounts.
3S-GTE:
Custom engine mounts.
Custom inlet manifold.
Custom exhaust manifold.
Fixing the dizzy due to it hitting the firewall.
Flywheel problems.
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Thu, 10 April 2003 00:56
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how rare are sa63's and what exactly is the diff between them and ra65's
and rob no offense taken. i know i will need help from people for an engine swap as this is my first car.
but if im gonna swap the engine i may as well get the best possible one under the hood.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Thu, 10 April 2003 06:35
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| rob_RA40 wrote on Thu, 10 April 2003 08:21 |
Is it just me or does anyone else get the impression that people are trying to push Bozwon into a project that he cannot handle?
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Whos pushing?
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Thu, 10 April 2003 10:20
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sa63's are slightly rarer than ra65's...the coupes being the rarest of these cars something to do with the hairdressers wanted more room so they made a heap of hatch's.....anyway
looks like you have a coupe, so well done there
no real difference between ra65 and sa63 other than the motors and a few ra65s having a w58 gearbox, and then the rest all depends on how your car was optioned when it left the factory floor
last sa63 i had was a xt and was near same as st bar the footwell courtesy light and a few other minor differences, the new sa63 i have is a xt and has electric targa top roof, power windows, mirrors and steering all from factory !
as for the debate of 1ggte vs 3sgte...only difference i can see is a little bit more money like $1000 which compares a lot to the more expensive rego of a 6cyl vs 4cyl and the (much) higher power of the 3sgte, that and not too many people have the balls to play with 3sgtes on here, every man and his dog have a 1ggte, no offense to anyone thats just how i see it and why i wont touch them....but if you are going to pay somebody to do the whole thing the 3sgte will be a lot more expensive like $2000-$5000 more (ballpark im not a business)
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Thu, 10 April 2003 10:24
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| rob_RA40 wrote on Thu, 10 April 2003 08:21 |
Is it just me or does anyone else get the impression that people are trying to push Bozwon into a project that he cannot handle?
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No
Les came on here about a year ago ?...asking the same questions of the 1ggte and everyone said do it, myself i thought he was another bloke who asked all the questions and does nothing to the car (no offence to you les ), however he then went forward with the install and got it all done, why is Bozwon any different ?...he has a mind of his own nobody is twisting his arm
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Thu, 10 April 2003 14:46
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<= my sa63 is a coupe which you can sort of see from my aviator
i was thinking at work about the conversion but was confused about something.
the 3s is a 2L 4cyl single turbo efi engine as farm i know.
from what ive read from other posts to put a 3s in a sa63 it requires the 2s-c and the 3sgte to be merged together with some other parts but i kept thinking
extract by TA22-3SGTE from http://www.toymods.org.au/msgboard/index.php?t=msg &th=2590
Motor 3SGTE out of ST165 Celica
Gearbox W57
Bellhousing 2S from SA 63 Celica
Sump 2S
Oil Pickup 2S
Flywheel 2S
Clutch/presure plate 2S
Starter 2S
Alternator bracket 2S
Engine Mounts 2S/2T
Turbo ST165 Group A
Exhaust Manifold Custom
Inlet Menifold Custom
Computer Haltech E6S
Intercooler ST185 Celica ( Air to Air )
Coils Direct Fire from 4AGZE
Cam Covers ST162 3SGE
Radiator TA22
Fuel Pump VL Turbo
Tail Shaft Custom
Fan Thermo
Exhaust 2 1/2" mandral
wouldn't be easier and just as effective to change the top end of the 2s-c to make it efi and add a turbo(Turbo ST165 Group A).
or isnt it that simple
it would have the same no. of cyl's
same capacity
same turbo etc
whats the diff between the 2s-c block pistons etc and the 3sgte?
cheers
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 03:07
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The difference between the 2S-C block and 3S-GTE block is practically everything. The 3S has a different block casting, different crank, different rods, different pistons. Trust me, making a hybrid 2S/3S is NOT something you'd want to try.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 04:57
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| celicamad85 wrote on Thu, 10 April 2003 20:20 |
as for the debate of 1ggte vs 3sgte...only difference i can see is a little bit more money like $1000
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Dude, what are you smoking?!
| celicamad85 wrote on Thu, 10 April 2003 20:20 |
and the (much) higher power of the 3sgte
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Sorry to burst your bubble, but both motors have put out about equivalent power on our dyno days with the 3S-GTE putting out about 3-4kW more than a 1G-GTE.
I'm not saying that the 1G-GTE is better, the 3S-GTE is a far superiour engine. But unless you were planning on big power (and have lots of time and money), then you can't beat the bang for the buck value of a 1G-GTE.
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 05:24
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nark: smoking tyres in the 350hp valiant charger i just put back together  ....mild worked 265 with triple 48mm webbers and close ratio 4 speed gearbox, lsd, huge front/rear swaybars etc.etc....i wont go on about it too much being this is a toyota forum
seriously i can weld and do everything required for a 3sgte --> sa63 swap and working off a budget for a 1ggte --> ra65 i am only going to spend $1000 more at the very most (not including the computer as i wouldnt swap a stock 1ggte anyway)
why is it ONLY ON THESE FORUMS the 1ggte is the most powerful raw awesome motor EVER built ??...the previous arguement was that it is superior to the 1uzfe in every way and now it comes out on top of a 3sgte, why do people bother to do anything but a 1ggte swap when it is clearly the best motor ever made bar nothing, why did toyota stop making them
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 06:16
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| celicamad85 wrote on Thu, 10 April 2003 20:20 |
as for the debate of 1ggte vs 3sgte...only difference i can see is a little bit more money like $1000
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celicamad, i agree with you that the 1G has been done to death, but you should be aware that the 3S might only cost $1000 more than a 1G for you seeing as tho u can do a lot of the things yourself, but for bozwon it may be a different story.
you cannot assume that bozwon has access to all of the tools and skills that you have and therefore you shouldnt mis-quote just for the sake of getting someone to choose the 3S over the 1G
i would as much like to see the 3S go into a celica, but to lead people astray is wrong, This is why i posted those links up earlier, to make sure that bozwon understands what he might be getting himself into
Bozwon once again i am terribly sorry if i sound condescending towards you i just find it irritating when people say things like the above quote assuming everyone else can do the same thing for the same price, your best bet will be to read those links that i posted above once again THEN go HERE and read the tech articles on putting a 1G-GTE into a celica.
then its just a matter of making a desicion
DISCLAIMER: just because i drive a 1G doesnt mean i am trying to promote it, if anything im on the 3S side seeing as tho its a SA63, but ill be fucked if i can stand seeing people pressured into something without them full knowing what they are getting into.
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Banned member
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 06:37
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i can understand where your coming from rob...i did say i can do it for $1000 but a shop may charge up to $5000 more than a 1ggte swap, so hard feelings there im not pressuring anyone
at the risk of this turning into another shit flinging debate i am not commenting further onto this thread
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Fri, 11 April 2003 14:16
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celicamad check you PM.
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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I supported Toymods
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Sat, 12 April 2003 00:50
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No such thing as a hybrid 2s-c 3sgte so forget about it!
You do not have to move the firewall!
Also the job will take much longer than 3 months!
If you want to see a RWD 3S conversion in progress, come around here in a few weeks! I should have my 3S sitting in the engine bay about then hopefully!
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Sat, 12 April 2003 01:12
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| TA22-3SGTE wrote on Wed, 31 July 2002 22:07 |
manipulate
I can't realy put a cost on it as I done the complete conversion myself over time and with a few dollars hear and a few dollars there you never realy keep count so I would have no idea how much it all cost , sorry not much help with cost !!!
Here is a bit of info I'v been putting together , not finnished yet but it may help .
My conversion putting a 3SGTE into a TA22 Celica
Motor 3SGTE out of ST165 Celica
Gearbox W57
Bellhousing 2S from SA 63 Celica
Sump 2S
Oil Pickup 2S
Flywheel 2S
Clutch/presure plate 2S
Starter 2S
Alternator bracket 2S
Engine Mounts 2S/2T
Turbo ST165 Group A
Exhaust Manifold Custom
Inlet Menifold Custom
Computer Haltech E6S
Diff Hilux LSD
Intercooler ST185 Celica ( Air to Air )
Coils Direct Fire from 4AGZE
Cam Covers ST162 3SGE
Radiator TA22
Fuel Pump VL Turbo
Tail Shaft Custom
Fan Thermo
Exhaust 2 1/2" mandral
1/ Flywheel
The 3SGTE flywheel sits closer to the block than the rear wheel drive 2S which means the input shaft does not sit into the sprigot bearing , the throughout bearing near hangs off the guide tube and the clutch plate does not slide onto the input shaft spline far enough , also the ringgear has a larger diameter than the 2S so the starter would need to be moved outwards about 5mm .
The 2S flywheel has a 6 bolt pattern and the 3SGTE has a 8 bolt pattern , so what I did was redrilled the 2S flywheel to 8 bolt , to do this I tapped 4 of the holes with a 1/2 unf thread and pluged these with 1/2 unf allthread , 2 of the holes in the 2S flywheel already line up and another 2 can be clean drilled but the other 4 holes come half and half so pluging these made it posible to redrill .
I have been told the 3SGTE clutch , presure plate & flywheel can be used by getting about 5mm machined off the face of the bellhousing ( this 5mm machining does not fix the starter problem as the starter needs to be moved outwards from the crank ).
2/ Intake Manifold
The intake manifold sits to high and will not alow the bonnet to close , I cut the manifold about 90mm from the face and welded on a new plenum made out of 3" thick wall aluminium tube and fitted the throttle body at the front aiming down a little , I cut a hole between the radiator and headlight for the intercooler plumbing to connect to the throttle body .
3/ Exhaust Manifold
The original manifold cannot be used as the starter is in the way of the turbo and the turbo would also be sitting back to front .
I made a manifold out of 1 1/4" steam pipe and bends . I made the dump out of 15mm plate and 3" mandrel pipe , this 3" dump extends down to just under the car an than reduces to 2 1/2 mandrel for the rest of the exhaust system with a 3" straight through stainless muffler behind the diff .
I faced the compressor outlet down towards the bottom and made the plumbing to exit through the bottom of the radiator support panel where I had cut a hole and connect to the ST185 intercooler .
4/ Engine Mounts
The 2S mounts bolt onto the left side of the block but on the right side there is only two holes in the block so I bolted the mount onto these two holes and welded some brackets onto the rear side of the mount which extended towards the back of the block where there is another two holes . I drilled out the spot welds on the mounting plates on the crossmember so these mounting plates can be moved , I bolted the rubber mounts to the mounting plates then modified the 2S mounts as for the TA22 rubber mounts would bolt onto them , now with the mounts bolted up I positioned the motor to where it had to sit then rewelded the mounting plates back onto the crossmember , The correct position for the motor is about 85 to 90mm measured from the rear of the head to the firewall and with about 20mm clearance from the sump to the crossmember .
5/ Alternator
I used the alternator bracket off the 2S which sits on the r/h side under the intake , the 2S alt mount will need a bit grinded off the bottom to bolt on .
6/ Cooling system
I used the TA22 radiator but had to move the top spout to the left side then used a long hose to go to the rear of the motor where I had made a rear water outlet out of 1 1/4 " steam bends and pipe , this outlet consists of a 90 degree facing out to the left then 90 upwards and then another 90 to face the outlet forward at a hight to run the hose along the side of the cam cover , I brassed a couple of fittings into this outlet and fitted the temp gauge sender and the water temp sensor , I searched around and found a couple of hoses and a stainless joiner to make the bottom hose . Then fitted a thermo fan to the radiator .
7/ Ignition System
The original distributor can be used by just removing the cap and rotor button then cutting the rotor button shaft off level with the pickup rotor and making a short cover to fit back on , this will give enough clearance to the firewall , the cover must be made of a non magnetic material such as aluminium or plastic as not to upset the magnetic pickups . the distributor can now be used and configured with an aftermarket ECU to run direct fire system , I used two direct fire coils from a 4AGZE and two toyota igniters , I bolted a length of 1' RHS between the shocky towers and mounted the coils off this .
Trevor
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theres a lot if 2s parts there as well as most of a 3sgte therefore to simplify it id call it a hybrid
ir to put it correctly its a 3sgte with a lot of 2s parts
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Mon, 14 April 2003 01:33
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| Nark wrote on Fri, 11 April 2003 14:57 |
I'm not saying that the 1G-GTE is better, the 3S-GTE is a far superiour engine. But unless you were planning on big power (and have lots of time and money), then you can't beat the bang for the buck value of a 1G-GTE.
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| celicamad85 wrote on Fri, 11 April 2003 15:24 |
why is it ONLY ON THESE FORUMS the 1ggte is the most powerful raw awesome motor EVER built ??...the previous arguement was that it is superior to the 1uzfe in every way and now it comes out on top of a 3sgte, why do people bother to do anything but a 1ggte swap when it is clearly the best motor ever made bar nothing, why did toyota stop making them
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Do you actually ever read what I write?
As for the 1UZ-FE and those Toyota quoted figures, you can live in a fantasy land where real life dyno figures mean less that factory quoted figures if you want. I just point out that in the real world the 1G-GTE makes the same power as a 1UZ-FE and about 3-4kW less than a 3S-GTE.
This is real world experience over 6 dyno days, not something that a company's marketing division want to tell you. You can believe Toyota if you want, I choose to believe my eyes.
It's not the best engine, but the 1G-GTE the best bang for the buck swap for an RA Celica.
| bozwon wrote on Sat, 12 April 2003 10:43 |
i read that TA22-3SGTE's hybrid (2s 3sgte) engine makes 237kw at the wheels which is 318hp at the wheels. (with 23psi boost)
where the 1ggte makes about 130 kw at the wheels (174hp)(with 11psi boost)
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His engine is far from stock.
A stock 3S-GTE will make about 114-128kW at the wheels. A 1G-GTE will make 111-125kW at the wheels.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Mon, 14 April 2003 01:53
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| Nark wrote on Mon, 14 April 2003 11:33 |
Max
1G-GTE RA60
ToyMods Webmaster
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Whenever I see 'Webmaster', I always figure you're dressed in a black leather studded gimp suit, whipping young innocent neubies or recalcitrant old timers into submission till they beg for mercy.
Strange, I know. I really should stop surfing porn.....
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Mon, 14 April 2003 02:07
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Dude... You're a strange boy...
But how do you know I don't? 
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Location:
nowra
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Mon, 14 April 2003 11:32
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have decided to go with a completly different engine
thatks for all of your help anyway people
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 3SGTE => sa63
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Mon, 14 April 2003 11:34
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Not 4 stroke victor?
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