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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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 1jz into ra60?
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Sun, 08 June 2003 10:52
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what do people think about a 1jz into a ra60? easy? or should i go a iggte and try and work it for some extra horses? whats eeveryones views?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Sun, 08 June 2003 11:11
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1jz is expensive and kills handling, the engine is longer and weighs a bit more, so more weight is put on the front wheels.
1g is a lot cheaper, makes decent power and is easier to do because it has been done so many times before.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Sun, 08 June 2003 12:31
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why post a reply like this when you have absolutely no idea .
And obviously have never attempted either conversion
i must have read this BULLSHIT a dozen times some dickhead claimed this once so every appoints themselves all knowledgeable
and repeats it all over the forums
for starters the ACTUAL length difference in the block is bugger all the 1jz pulley accounts for the majority of the difference .
the weight difference is a joke less than 20 kg (yes ive actually weighed them both)
the 1jz gearbox is 16 Kg heavier so the front to rear weight distribution is almost equaled
the actual mount position of the 1j allow it to be positioned more rearward and lower than a 1ggte
Not only is it a better fit but the car will actually handle better with a 1j in it .mounted in this position
yes the 1j is more expensive but with 1/2 cuts selling for $2000 they arnt much dearer .the whole conversion would be no more than $1,000 dearer but eh car would be 2 secs quicker 0-100 and 1/4 mile
considering the number of 1j conversion around i cant see how the number of 1ggte conversions done makes this easier .The 1ggte conversion has less involved but can still be done by even YOU
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
March 2003
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 01:43
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So Paul, you consider the gearbox to sit in the REAR of the car?
And remember the 20-25kg difference between the engines would mostly be in front of the front axle which magnifies the effect of the extra weight.
I don't know much about 1JZ mounts, so I can't comment on it sitting lower..
The thing you'll find with an RA60 is that the engine bay isn't as tall as the Celicas before it, so you're prolly gonna have problems fitting the 1JZ in there (I'm assuming that it's taller than the 1G) 'coz my 1G barely fits.
I haven't measured either engine's block, but from what I've seen of swaps of both engines into the same cars, I'd have to say that the 1JZ is definately longer.
And considering the 1G has a bore of 75 while the 1JZ has an 86 bore, I find it a bit hard to believe that the blocks are the same length.
You may be confusing the 1G with a 2JZ..
Anything can fit given enough time/effort/money (I've seen 1JZs in AE86s!), but I reckon you're better off sticking a 1G in and putting the time/effort/money into working the 1G.
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 02:14
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Hands up all those people who have done BOTH 1j and 1g conversions into old celicas in thier OWN back shed (front carport is an acceptable alternative).
Hands Down.
Hands up all those people who had to pay someone to do it (any conversion - not even both) for them ?
case closed.
Matt
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 02:15
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p.s. HPI videos dont count as having seen .
Matt
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 02:28
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It's interesting. When I dropped the 2JZGE + W58 into the Mk2, the front came up by 1.5"! That can only be a good thing.
I still have to put the thing on a weigh bridge, but I expect good things.
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 02:49
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| Yojimbo wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 12:14 |
Hands up all those people who had to pay someone to do it (any conversion - not even both) for them ?
case closed.
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Hands up all those people who know SFA about this topic and have added absolutely no valuable information to this thread.
This is what we're trying to cut down on in these forums. Juvenile comments like that are best left for the playground instead of here where everyone who reads this thread has to wade through it before finding useful content.
If I'm wrong, then I'm happy to admit that I'm wrong, but keep garbage like that off these forums.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 03:41
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yeah i will probably go the ig thanks for your help and u think rolin imports would be good? where did u get yours from
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 04:03
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Considering i have actually measured both engines i can tell you for sure .that the two blocks are VERY close in lenghth in fact only about 30 mm longer for the 1j .
the TOTAL lenghth of the 1j is 720 mm (the same lenghth as a 1ggze) .from the front of the pulley to the front of the engine is 90mm .making the engine 610 mm long
you need more room for a 1j its but as i have already explained the front pulley is responsible for a lot of this lenghth
The gearbox weight is rear of the front wheels .adding weight forward of the front wheels is what has the biggest effect in the actual handling
again the actual geometry of the 1j has the mount positioned more frontward on the actual engine than a 1ggte .in fact the centre of the mount is only 29mm from the front of the engine .depending on which 1j is used but a front sump is needed for the conversion anyway
did it actually occur to anyone that the 1j is the same weight as the original engine
YES i have done this conversion (or should i say helped someone else do it )
i will say again the engine CAN be mounted lower . the original mount bracket was removed from the crossmemebr and the 1j mount
and the actual front pulley was located some 10mm further back than the original engine .the rear of the engine is 10mm from the firewall
i think i know the difference between a 1g and a 1j and a 2j
ive either done or assited in 4 1j conversions and about 5 1g conversions
The front end of the car sat approx 25 mm higher than with the original engine
| Quote: |
I don't know much about 1JZ mounts, so I can't comment on it sitting lower..
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so how can anyone that hasnt actually ever measured this engine .never attempted to fit has never weighed one . or even seen one in an ra60 comment on the handling .
how do you know its harder have you even tried it or serioulsly looked at it obviuosly not you havent even measured one
as far as how much differnce an extra 20 kg would make in the front of a car ...well you obviuosly have never even experimented with this .
CONTRARY to your wild guess on weight distribution .removing the battery (11 kg) fitting and all allloy radiator saved 2 kg .removing a section of the front bumper about 2 kg saving .so actually lightening VERY forward of the front wheels .and 11kg was all on one side .
made absolultey no difference to the handling what so ever
when you fit an engine MUCH lower it has a huge effect on cornering .your not pusing the weight from as higher point ..less mechanical load on the suspension
Finally using scales to weigh each corner of the vehicle .it was determined that the 1j casued the rear weight distribution to be slighlty more and the front slighlty less .
the front was lowered 1 and 1/4 inches the rear 1 inch . a larger rear sway bar kyb shocks all round and a slightly larger front sway bar .and the car handles VERY good .
consdiering that in standard form it handles like an absolute bucket of shit .and BEFORE the susupension was added it actually handled BETTER than before id say your WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYYYY wrong
the most interesting part is the 17 by 7 inch mags with 215 45 17 front and 245/45/17 rear fitted added more weight to the car than the entire conversion
It still amazes me how people can form an opinion on an engine conversion based on a wild guess of engine weight ,lenghth ,positioning and physical geometry
The whole idea of these forums is to help other people to make the correct choice .and give them advice that will guide their decision of which engine and the difficulty of conversions etc
I Think it is irresponsible for someone to give advice on a conversion they have NEVER done NEVER seen AND NEVER even Made basic measurments to see how well it would work
Interseting how a lexus v8 can be fitted to a mazda mx5 and the geometry of the conversion be so good that even with the big weight difference the car handled better than ever
all round for bang for bucks the 1ggte is a much cheaper and easier conversion however .if youd like an extra 100 h.p at the wheels and about 150 nm of torque more then fit a 1j
P.s the entire conversion including wiring was completed for just under $4,000 .t
THE HANDLING IS NOT ADVERSLY EFFECTED
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 04:31
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(/end rant)
my 2c. it depends how easy you think it'll be. the 1g is an easy fit (as far as conversions generally go).
as has been mentioned, the 1j is a decent bit longer, so to fit everything in there you'll probably be quite pressed for room.
Even in my mk2 supra it's not an especially comfortable fit.
if you were going to use a custom radiator and thermo fans, it'd make the fit a bit easier.. but once again it comes down to how much time/effort/money you're looking to spend
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 04:34
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thanks mate for your extensive reply  yeah i figure for the extra say 2000 bucks why not go the 1jz, then i can toast nark  hahaha and ill be doing it myself so ill save the money for labour
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 09:57
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I'm not looking for a fight here, I'm just going to offer my opinion. If it were me, I'd be inclined to drop a 1G in there. Here are a few pics I gathered up for comparison, I hope you don't mind Nark and Norbie and SkidMan
This first one is of how much room a 1G has in my XX.
http://users.bigpond.net.au/justcallmefrank/1geu1. jpg
For a direct comparison, this is how much room Norbie has with his 2JZGTE.
http://norbie.net/Project2JZ/FinishingTouches/Engi ne02.jpg
As you can see, there is a fair bit of difference, given that they have the same block length as the 1GGTE and 1JZGTE respectively. This is the reason, generally, that I think a 1JZGTE into a Mk2 Supra is a fine idea, there is a fair bit of room in the bay. The only reasons I chose a 1GGTE for my XX is the fact it makes more than enough power to keep me happy for the moment, and could be done for a lot less than the 1JZGTE conversion.
The reasons for this are:
- The R154 doesn't fit without some modifications into the A6X transmission tunnel, doesn't line up, and generally manual half-cuts are rarer and/or more expensive.
- Finding a 2JZGE W58 and bellhousing was something I neither have the time nor the motivation for.
- As my car already has a 1GEU, everything bolts straight up pretty much.
But thats besides the main issue, this discussion is about a RA60.
The RA60's 21R-C has been pointed out by many as a tiny bit heavier than the 1GGTE, or about the same. The difference is in the length. There is extra weight in front of the axle which is the biggest problem. There is a reason car manufacturers try to centralise the weight between the axles, the common thing of a wheel at each corner demonstrates this.
I've got a pic to link to on Nark's site, but its not working atm, so I'll try later. For now, I'll just basically describe the fact that there is a finger and a bit room between the absolute front of the engine and the radiator.
Here is a pic I dug up of SkidMans RA65. As you can see, yes, the engine is sitting where the radiator should be. To me, whats the point of putting in an engine that sits so far forward of the front axle? Sure the 1JZGTE will be quicker, but if you think the handling won't be adversely affected then I bow to you for defying the laws of physics. Thats all well and good that the 1JZGTE can be mounted further back too, its been done before as well, Toysport in the USA put a 2JZGTE in their RA65...problem is, they moved the firewall to do it. Take a look at Narks 1GGTE: http://www.toymods.org.au/Nark_Gallery/Engine.JPG there isn't room to mount it any further back anyway. I understand you've had lots of experience with the engines, but how much of them was with the A6X Celica chassis, because these pics show its not the simplest thing in the world?
Just food for thought, and my opinion on the subject. The 1GGTE in my eyes is a better option. The 1JZGTE sure will fit, but is it worth the trade-offs? As I said at the top, I'm not looking for a fight, and generally I respect your opinion on all of these matters, but I felt in the case of the car in question that you might have it a bit wrong.
As for the MX5 with the 1UZFE, I'm assuming you are talking about the Bullet Roadster. I can assure you there isn't a lot of MX5 left in the front of that car, they have fully rebuilt the chassis, and from memory, actually lengthened the wheelbase slightly. http://www.bulletsupercars.com.au/showroom/Gallery /images/spaceframe4.jpg
Thanks,
Nathan
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 10:07
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not a lot of mx5?
I'd say none looking at that pic!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 10:12
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| celicamad wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 14:03 |
The gearbox weight is rear of the front wheels .adding weight forward of the front wheels is what has the biggest effect in the actual handling
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The gearbox is still in front of the centre of the car, which means its weight does not counterbalance the extra weight of the engine.
| celicamad wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 14:03 |
so how can anyone that hasnt actually ever measured this engine .never attempted to fit has never weighed one . or even seen one in an ra60 comment on the handling .
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You don't need to measure two engines to have an idea of their relative sizes.
Common sense would tell you that replacing a 4 with a 6 (especially if they both weighed the same) will put more weight forward due to the increased length of the 6.
| celicamad wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 14:03 |
how do you know its harder have you even tried it or serioulsly looked at it obviuosly not you havent even measured one
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I've seen how the air con pulley was sitting about 3mm from my radiator (with marks left behind when the engine had moved), and I can tell you that it would be a more difficult conversion just form that.
Also moving the radiator forward would move even more weight toward the front end.
You don't need to measure an engine to tell the difficulty of the swap FFS.
| celicamad wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 14:03 |
as far as how much differnce an extra 20 kg would make in the front of a car ...well you obviuosly have never even experimented with this .
CONTRARY to your wild guess on weight distribution .removing the battery (11 kg) fitting and all allloy radiator saved 2 kg .removing a section of the front bumper about 2 kg saving .so actually lightening VERY forward of the front wheels .and 11kg was all on one side .
made absolultey no difference to the handling what so ever
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Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that removing 11kgs from the extreme front of the car would not affect handling. Nothing personal, but it's one of those things that have to be seen to be believed due to the fact that a couple of laws of physics would have to be broken.
| celicamad wrote on Mon, 09 June 2003 14:03 |
It still amazes me how people can form an opinion on an engine conversion based on a wild guess of engine weight ,lenghth ,positioning and physical geometry
The whole idea of these forums is to help other people to make the correct choice .and give them advice that will guide their decision of which engine and the difficulty of conversions etc
I Think it is irresponsible for someone to give advice on a conversion they have NEVER done NEVER seen AND NEVER even Made basic measurments to see how well it would work
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So you're saying that it's impossible to tell whether something will work or not unless you've tried it?
At the end of the day, it still comes to personal choices. I've met someone who's got a 302 in his RA23 and thinks the handling is fine... I've also met people who tell me I've ruined the handling of my car by putting the 1G in there.
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Location:
Gold Coast
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 11:01
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hey all... the 1jz ra65 is up and running and i took it for its first strap yesturday... id have to say that the handling is nearly the same. i did the conversion cause i wanna be fast down the 1/4... handleing doesnt bother me that much. it is a tight fit and yes it has cost me a shit load of money so far.
i got underneath it the other day and it doesnt look like the tranny tunnel has been moved much. the R154 seems to fit nicely in there...
if i could go back a few months i would choose the 1G-GTE... the trouble this thing has caused me and money ive spent is stupid.. stick with the 1g... id say it is a much easier conversion.
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Mon, 09 June 2003 22:33
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look guys belive it or not i actually agree the 1g is an easier conversion . i think ive already posted that .
as far as the 1j is concerned one thing a few of you guys seem to have overlooked is how to mount the engine . the original mounts are cut off the crossmemember seam welded with flat plates .and the factory 1j mount bolts dierctly through the crossmember
i ABSOLUTLEY fail to see how when the 1j weighs the same as the original engine ANY hassles .In fact the original car had air conditioning and the two engines where weighed without compressors .
the weight forward of the wheels was REDUCED
Nark perhaps re -read what i said .an alloy radiator was used its 2kg lighter (full) than the original one .
| Quote: |
Sorry, but I find it hard to believe that removing 11kgs from the extreme front of the car would not affect handling. Nothing personal, but it's one of those things that have to be seen to be believed due to the fact that a couple of laws of physics would have to be broken.
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so your fully aware of the front rear split and the total weight of the vehicle( on a weighbridge) and and the vehicles exact point of centre . perhaps you can quote these
because without this is almost impossible to determine HOW handling would be effected .
i dont even want to start this one but its quite possible to make the handling of a vehicle worse by removing too much weight from the front of the vehicle
It just seems to me that people have to justify their decsision for fitting the engine they already have by bagging another
you like your geat ive never bagged it
two vehicles have now PROVEN through actual trial and error that handling is not effected .bloody hell the handling of a TA23 was un effected when the 1j was fitted
and yes i was talking about the bullet ...probably a bad example considering the amount of fabrication .but the reson it works is obviously correct geometry
anyway lets agree to disagree .
people you have two options
1. Believe nark ..hes never actually done this conversion but is good with looking at engines and determinng from that the result
2. Believe me ive put 3 1js into light vehicles with the handling uncomprimised .and took the advice of an engineerthat is famous for chassis design of off raod racing buggys ( Barry Johnson)when positioning the engine .Then used Barry's digital four wheels scales to set the car up
i have contacted the owner he is going to post asap .the car is used for club racing in melbourne
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 00:48
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I've never owned an RA60 or a 1G so I can't add much to this discussion. However, it's interesting to note that when Toyota built the MA61 with a big inline six, they went to the considerable effort of re-engineering the front end of the RA60 and increasing the vehicle's wheelbase. I'm inclined to believe Toyota did that for a reason. They could have just shoehorned the 5M into the RA60 chassis (it will fit), but they chose not to! Why? Food for thought...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 00:48
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Celicamad, the thing I don't get, is its fine to say "yeah, use the rear-most mounts". Thats fine, and I'm sure you've done it in your TA23 and been able to move the engine so far back that the correct balance has been achieved.
In an RA6X, its not an easy thing. As I pointed out, as it is, the 1GGTE in Narks car is already sitting as far back as its going to, and theres a bees dick room between the radiator and the engine. A 1JZGTE may not be hugely longer, but even you have admitted that indeed it IS longer. That means moving the radiator etc and putting some of the weight even further forward.
This is a picture of a 2JZGTE, which is obviously the same length. This is how much room they have in an RA6X using the rearward mounts, and yes, this is the one where they punched a hole through the firewall to move it back:
I'm not trying to argue with you, you obviously know your shit, but not all shit is going to work for all cars. The engine bay in the RA6X mustn't be as long as that in your TA23, because there isn't any room to use your rearward mounts. Therefore, yes, theres going to be some compromise in weight distribution and hence handling. Sure you can set the car up around it, but it'd never handle as well as something that was set up around say, RENESIS rotary (the reason I used this example is the damn thing isn't a lot bigger than a toaster).
[Updated on: Tue, 10 June 2003 00:50]
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 01:11
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everything else aside (for i know NOTHING on this topic) that 2jz above would be an utter bitch to work on
ed
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 09:13
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how much horsepower does a iggte have stock? and the same with a 1jz? is it hard to suck more horsepower out of a 1ggte? or is it a waste of time and money? i want a engine that will be quick and reliable as this is going in my daily driver! i would be happy with 300hp with i know the 1jz can get but what about the 1ggte? if there is a horsepower difdference of 100 and its hard to get the iggte to go quicker i would probabaly go through the hassle of the 1jz? what do u think?
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Location:
newcastle
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 10:56
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1ggte at best gives (i believe) about 200 rwhp i think thats what darren was getting anyway im sure someone can post the exact figure .so for toyota manual thats about 235 h.p @ flywheel
1jzgte good for 300 rwhp (auto) so thats about 375 hp @ flywheel
300 is with minor mods but 240 is as easy as an exhaust and 14 psi
Frank fair enough if nark has the engine 10 mm from the flywheel( minimum for engineering in NSW).Then yes the engine will sit about 20 -30 mm further .
now Believe it ot not a 2jz is longer and higher than a 1jz im told the lenghth is actaully in the timing case cover as is some height .but we are only talking 20 mm
sorry i think i didnt explain a few things properly
Oh and by the way im not pissed off or cranky or any of that shit .
im just trying to get my point across .when i re-read ny posts i sound really agro .well im not!! annoyed yes agro no .
i cant help but be sarcastic thats me 
SO anyway .i dont want to argue with anyone but discuss pro's and cons based on actual information and measurments etc not a wild guess 
O.k
yes the ta23 engine bay is a litle bigger but the differnces where only minor
I have actually done the conversion in to an Ra60 and yes a custom radiator was needed .as it was in the ta23
So in direct reffernce to the ra60 1j conversion
O.k so if you measure from the centre of the strut tower to the rear of the engine .then from the same point to the front .
approx 60% of the engine is in the forward half of the engine bay .ie forward of the front wheels
with the original engine only 50% was forward of centre .
THE TWO ENGINES WEIGH THE SAME THE ORIGINAL ENGINE AND THE 1JZ(YES WE WEIGHED THEM SIXWORKS CAN VERIFY THIS (he helped me weigh the 1jzgte)
however we where able to calculate that 12 kg of additional weight was added forward of the strut tower .
now as barry expliabed this is the critical point...forward of the strut tower he also said that less than 20 kg was neither here nor there ...BARRY JOHNSON CHASSIS ENGINEER i have his number you can ring him and argue with him if need be
so as i explained battery to boot bumper mod raditor . etc we saved 15 kg anyway .
now the a/c compressor would have weighed at least 4 or kg (im guessing) plus the condensor and plumbing etc. however we decided to forget this based on the fact that we had yet to fit Intercooler and plumbing
All i can tell you is this with the battery ,surge tank in boot and the Engine all fittted the front to rear weight split actually favoured the rear by a couple of percent more than factory.
even then barry suggested adding a little weight to the rear .And he was right traction was better and the car felt more confident
dont forget we seam welded and strengthened the crossmeber .this will have added a little more front rigidity as well
dont forget the 1j sits lower than the original engine
Remember the statement at hand
| Quote: |
1jz is expensive and kills handling
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Yes the 1j is more expensive .
NO HANDLING IS NOT EFFECTED AT ALL !!!!THE CAR HANLDED BETTER
those that want to belive me can that that dont want to great
the information is here for those that are considering the same conversion .draw your own conclusions
sorry i dont have time to PROVE myself to others .
ive done it worked thats it
oh yeah i almost forgot peace man !!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: 1jz into ra60?
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Tue, 10 June 2003 12:25
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thankyou everyone for your help and your sometimes "heated" discussions 
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