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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Mon, 09 June 2003 16:00
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i had a bit of a read back to old posts but couldnt find what i wanted to know
what exactly would it take (and its it possible) to build up a 4AGE similar to the specification of the initial D trueno, 12'000rpm redline ect ect???
and no this isnt for a street car.
help appreciated
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Mon, 09 June 2003 22:06
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im always thankful that im a celica enthusiast...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 00:21
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fine if someone wants to be a wanker ill reword my question.
What modifications are needed to build a 4AGE to the same specification that toyota used in the Group A AE101's
i ALLREADY know that it will need head work, different cam profile, conrods, pistons, extractors ect ect but i was looking to find more information about those engines, as im assuming the modified group A cars would be at the pinnacle of development for that engine.
its for a rally 86 im trying to get started, so low rpm driveability isnt important at all
and rob_RA40 i didnt ask for your opinion im after some information because i havent been able to find it anywhere else, so im asking for help. i dont want to turn this thread into a fight like every other, and yes i have competed in motorsport before, im not some dreamer idiot kid asking cos he just watched initial d and thought takumi looked cool, and naturally want his "special" engine. i thought it would be easier to understand what i wanted.
if anyone has some constructive imput it would be greatly appreciated
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 00:57
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Hey man might wanna take it a little easier on rob there, he could have been a lot less subtle, and even then he didn't even openly criticize at all!
Anyway for some constructive help try
http://www.billzilla.org/
in particluar
http://www.billzilla.org/4agmods.htm
He has a list of how to build up a 4AGE to pretty well whatever you want, great site.
BTW Stating Initial-D can get you a positive response and also a not so positive response 
Cheers
Wilbo
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Location:
GoldCoast/Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 01:05
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Formula Atlantic 4A-GE, are the words you need to know, and your so called pinnacle of 4A-GEs.... hold on let me be more specific... pinnacle of N/A 4A-GEs.
And if you keep on spending money on those Initial D videos , be prepared to wait a bit longer to build one up, ie. when a crank costs about $5-6k just for the crank, you begin to get an idea what the whole engine would cost!
Rally 86....... nice... don't know what the hell you mean by a rally car not needing low rpm drivabiliy!
"and yes i have competed in motorsport before"
LOL whoopdie doooooo Basil!! So have many others on these forums, but they don't use that as a medal of honour, or as justification for rudeness.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 01:33
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Thanks for the help guys! 
sorry rob 
i dont wanna start a fight!!!!
and yes i did mean the pinnacle of n/a, but theres nothing to stop forced induction on a highly developed engine either, other than compressoin issues.
ill make sure im specifc this time SPEEDCORE
if i remember correctly most engines have whats called a powerband, as long as you have the skill and gearing to keep the engine in the powerband its all good
now obviously with a lumpier cam profile and other modifications, the powerband of the engine will move to higher in the rev range, in a street engine there is only so far you can go before it becomes a pig to drive, with high idle poor fuel comsumption ect. but in a racing situation going flat out the whole time, you can keep the engine spinning in its peak range the whole time, so i really dont see why response and power at 2000rpm is important when you spend the whole time between 6000 and 11000, or between 4500 and 7000 in the case of my other car. i spend the whole time in a 2500 rpm band of my engines whole range. so on the track the rest of the rev range dosent really matter.
and my point behind the motorsport comment is that i am activley involved, no one on the forum here knows me, so i just wanted to let everyone know i was serious
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Location:
c'town, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 02:56
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sorry lang i was being a troublemaker when i shouldve just kept my keyboard to myself... hope theres no beef
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Location:
GoldCoast/Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 03:25
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Yeah powerbands...... the thing that I was thinking was this.....
I find driving a car on tarmac is easier to keep in the powermaking rev range, compared with "TIGHT" dirt tracks.. ie Hairpin turns in gravel. I attribute this to having to slow down sufficiently to attack the corner at good angles, and not wanting to FORCE (read: crunch 1st) it back into 1st to get good acceleration out of the turn. Don't forget it could just be my amount of experience on dirt and gravel!!
As for building an engine if your getting into rally, my suggestion would be to not worry about making the most revs.... grab a 20V and go from there..... 9000 RPM from a 20 V is attainable and a bit more forgiving on the wallet!
Don't forget about the 16V's also..... most people tend to forget about them because they produce less power from the factory but they are a great engine that still offer heaps of potential. But as with most things in life.... it all costs money!! 
PS: Where about are you from and what catagory are you planning to campainge this car??
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 03:46
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im from adelaide, 19yo
this might be interesting to anyone reading
i was thinking of starting out in GROUP N3
just need a spare car 1st, thought the corolla would be good because its lightweight, fairly nimble and RWD, and would be a good basis to learn some real driving skills, competeing with it in a rally situation. i could rally my S4 rx7, but its an infini (you know the version out of gran tursimo) and theres only 600 of them so i dont really want to wreck it rallying it
this following paragraph might be interesting to anyone reading
Group A:
A8 (including WRC) 2 litre turbo 4WD, A7 - two litre two wheel drive non turbo, A6 - up to 1.8 litre 2WD non turbo, A5 up to 1.4 litre non turbo 2WD etc.
Group N:
N4: up to 2 litre turbo 4WD, N3: up to 1.8 litre non turbo 2WD, N2: up to 1.4 litre non turbo 2WD, N1: up to 1.0 litre non turbo 2WD
In the Australian Rally Championship the classes for Group A are known as PRC (Production Rally Car). They basically mirror the Group A classes from PRC4 (class A8) down to PRC1, however PRC5 encompasses over 2 litre cars such as the Datsun 240z/ 260Z and the newly instigated Aussie Car Class (Steve Winwood had thought until now that I had forgotten!) I reckon so much more can come from the Aussie Car Class - they are one direction Aussie rallying can take into the future. Manufacturers have cars for this class. Class PRC6 also exists, for now out of homologation cars such as the Galant VR4 and the Mazda 323 4WD.
The sort of cars that are usually used by new crews include the ubiquitous Datsun 1600, and the odd Galant to mix in . Then came along the Stanza, and the 240 and 260Z. The Escort was also mixed in with all of these. Not to mention the Corolla. Most of these cars are now cheaply built up into rally cars. These cars are all rear wheel drive however. The road cars of the '80's and '90's moved to front wheel drive and therefore the available rally cars as we knew them changed. Newer cars, such as Hyundai Excels and the front drive versions of the Corolla make effective rally cars, as do the ever popular Charade in various guises make effective rally cars, but are only just stating to be built into rally cars. This is mostly due to cost of the original cars and the cost of building them up in to rally cars.
So if you want to start off in the sport then the way to go is to usually buy somebody else's old car, unless you have a lot of ready capital to build exactly what you want. But how do you know this? Start off in a cheaper, preferably well built car. And don't look for the fastest car with the most power. look for a car with good handling characteristics (easier to learn to drive) and a good roll cage - the car will last longer as well as being safe for those little 'learning experiences'! A standard engine and gearbox combo will be plenty to get you started - and surprisingly quick in some cars too!
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Location:
GoldCoast/Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 04:03
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SWEET!! Ok now I know that your serious!!
I'd contact people in the know reguarding engine swaps and other stuff like what type of cage, engine mods allowed etc, not too sure if this is done through CAMS or just ask through people at Rally.com.au Do this before spending a cent ok!!!
PS: I've been offered a driving position starting from August. Not sure what car the guy is planning on running but there have been discusions of it being an STi or early model EVO. Auctions are on this week some time so I should know by sometime next week!
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 10:49
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Start saving your pennies,
do you know how much it costs to run in a ARC event!!!
Ok for starters to run a car in group N it still must be homologated for group N or expired less then 4 years ago, which basically means newer type car post 1994, and you are very restricted to what you can and cant do. go to the FIA site and find out what cars are still homologated and you will see your cars are limited. Secondly that leaves you with PRC. Group A rules only come into play when you want/can afford to run ROC or rally Australia..
Now you said you wanted to rally an AE86..
Good luck building one from scratch you will need at least 20G to build an AE86 and thats just bare minimum ie, no really quick engines close ratio gearboxes and difs, as they are as RARE as anything these days and cost a packet.. You might want to think of say a AE92 corolla, parts are more plentiful and should be a little cheaper to build.. Also this will put you in class P2 (which is PRC 2).
And thirdly CAMS will not let you run a 20 Valve in an AE86 so forget that straight out, so if you want to run at 11000 RMPM good luck as you power band will start at something like 8000, which is too little for rally, you need Torque thats right torque to win rallys not RPM and out right power to win rallys, so you have to build an engine that has torque from about 3000 I dont care how good of a driver you are..
Sorry for laying down some facts but anything else you need to know???
Ben
AE86 Trueno 4AGE
(feeling bad as i missed Bega) 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Initial D Spec 4AGE
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Tue, 10 June 2003 12:40
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| SPEEDCORE wrote on Tue, 10 June 2003 14:03 |
I've been offered a driving position starting from August. Not sure what car the guy is planning on running but there have been discusions of it being an STi or early model EVO. Auctions are on this week some time so I should know by sometime next week!
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Swwweeet!  That is certainly great news indeed ... now you're gonna have a fast car both on and off road Speedie! Gosh ... give us a ride sometime?
Yes ... I doubt that high rev's would be suitable for rallying - there is a rally AE86 featured in the Levin & Trueno mags, I believe that particular one runs just a Redtop with quad throttles ... and it doesn't run massive tyres rather 15x6" with massive amounts of clearance ... certainly a different beast from those you find fanging thru the mountains ... 
Also, I can't picture a rally machine running a 4AGZE ... then again ...
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