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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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EFI Turbo 4K
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Thu, 12 June 2003 12:58
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undecided what to do with the inlet side of the setup i am designing.
4KE inlet manifold + Throttle Body (too hard to find + too expensive considering it is not very efficient)
custom short length manifold and quad 20v throttle bodies
stock K manifold w/EA falcon throttle body (DGV weber stud pattern, 2 injectors)
the car is a ke10 so theres not that much room to muck about on the inlet side... the budget is not huge but not tiny either...
would like some fresh opinions, anyone with hands on experience here is encouraged to reply!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 00:20
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Pro_ke,
If you are shooting for some big numbers as I imagine you are I am not sure a facory 4KE manifold will do the trick anyway.
Toyota make parts to suit there application and I have yet to see an EFI intake manifold that will flow evenly and reliably once the performance level has been upped to far.
I have not looked at the K series stuff but I know for a fact the 2TG, 3TGTE and am reliably informed the 1GGTE manifold all require reworking or replacing to reliably feed a big increase in BHP.
If you do find a 4KE manifold it is very easy to see if it is up to the task. Just have it flow benched and ensure its flow figures are higher or equal to those of your head. And of course they need to be even.
Last thing you want is you inlet manifold holding back the performance of your engine package.
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 03:23
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giant:
i am not familiar with the layout of the 7k manifold other than the fact that it is 2-piece and yes it will bolt on (all K stuff shares the same head bolt pattern), however they are expensive to buy new, and as difficult to find as the 4KE manifold used. fabricating a manifold is not a great concern to me as i can do this quite cheaply... what i really mean is if i have to fabricate 1/2 a manifold i might as well make the whole thing up exactly how i want it... hope that makes sense!
toyman
the 4KE manifolds are quite poor, the only thing they have going for them is they bolt on but i think i will end up fabricating something of my own.
which leads me to this - i think i will get hold of the 20v setup, mount them vertically where you would usually find a carby on a K series and build a plenum over the top of them. would mean a custom manifold + plenum but it really shouldnt be that much work, and would get the throttle bodies up where i would like them (ie away from the strut tower). conversely i could build a 180degree manifold and sit the throttle bodies over the top of the motor but i think then the fuel may have to travel too far in the piping... ???
i am quite keen on the 20v idea as these throttle bodies have come down a lot in price and shoud flow very well if i ever go totally mental. i have been told i can realistically aim for about 200hp at the wheels witht he setup i have planned....
ab
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Club President
I supported Toymods
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 04:06
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Pro_ke,
The 3TEU manifold is a 180 degree runner design. It looks pretty funky actually but I have no idea how well it works. In relation to the fuel tho the injector are still at the entry to the head not near the plenum so the distance the fuel has to travel is not increased any by the longer runner design.
You can see a pic of one in Grega's thread re his 2T-TEU
http://www.toymods.org.au/msgboard/index.php?t=msg &th=10453
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
December 2002
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 06:16
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i would imagine those 7k manifolds are like hens teeth... ?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 07:48
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at wreckers, yes. rare.
at toyota - plenty - but expect to pay over $1k for it.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Fri, 13 June 2003 08:18
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I thought the 4KE factory manifold was a 180 degree design like the 3TEU? Been a while since I have seen one.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Sat, 14 June 2003 21:41
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yes the 4KE one is - the plenum sits atop the rocker cover. the picture is a 7K injected manifold.
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 13:57
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still undecided on this whole thing... the 4k engine gets sent off for a build in the next week, so looks like ill have to come up with something soon...
any other ideas?
im going to see if i can get a hold of one of those 7k manifolds at a good price, i found one but the guy wanted way too much for it.
ab
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 19:54
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dude, do that custom manifold jobby like what was on the oldcorollas egroup - the *almost* crossflow K motor!
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 04:10
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yeah that looked pretty cool, ideally though i would like to avoid having to do an entirely custom manifold ... not have to worry about injector positions, fuel rail etc. You think 20v throttles would work nicely on a manifold like that? it would certainly look the part!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 05:01
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unless you go the 7KE manifold your only other stock option is the 4KE. the 4KE isn't that bad considering the runners are only a couple of mm larger diameter than the large port 3K heads.
200hp at the wheels? probably not at a toymods dyno day..or in 4th gear... my motor made 47.3kw at the wheels at DD5 compared to 86kw 4AG's making 55kw. so you are looking for 150kw rw?
that's around 233 flywheel kw, or 312 hp
that equates to 274Nm at 8000rpm
say you wanted a more sane 6000rpm power peak, that requires 365Nm of torque.
for a motor with 100% efficiency to do that you'd need to be running about 1.1 bar boost at 8000rpm or around 1.8 bar boost at 6000rpm. given that the corolla motors will be closer to about 80% efficiency, add another 20% to that boost.
so that's 1.3bar boost at 8000rpm (19psi)
or 1.6bar boost at 6000rpm (23.5Psi)
sounds like you'll be needing to do some serious work to the head to get it to flow those kind of numbers (350CFM at 19Psi, or 300CFM at 23.5Psi)
i think you'll have to end up going to a custom manifold.
hmm that brings another question. could a K bottom end or block withstand 365Nm of torque? i guess we'll see 
Cya, Stewart
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 10:45
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any ideas what the 3KR made power wise?
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Tue, 24 June 2003 03:27
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| oldcorollas wrote on Mon, 23 June 2003 15:01 |
unless you go the 7KE manifold your only other stock option is the 4KE. the 4KE isn't that bad considering the runners are only a couple of mm larger diameter than the large port 3K heads.
200hp at the wheels? probably not at a toymods dyno day..or in 4th gear... my motor made 47.3kw at the wheels at DD5 compared to 86kw 4AG's making 55kw. so you are looking for 150kw rw?
that's around 233 flywheel kw, or 312 hp
that equates to 274Nm at 8000rpm
say you wanted a more sane 6000rpm power peak, that requires 365Nm of torque.
for a motor with 100% efficiency to do that you'd need to be running about 1.1 bar boost at 8000rpm or around 1.8 bar boost at 6000rpm. given that the corolla motors will be closer to about 80% efficiency, add another 20% to that boost.
so that's 1.3bar boost at 8000rpm (19psi)
or 1.6bar boost at 6000rpm (23.5Psi)
sounds like you'll be needing to do some serious work to the head to get it to flow those kind of numbers (350CFM at 19Psi, or 300CFM at 23.5Psi)
i think you'll have to end up going to a custom manifold.
hmm that brings another question. could a K bottom end or block withstand 365Nm of torque? i guess we'll see
Cya, Stewart
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depends who you talk to, 200hp seems a bit high to me too but i have been assured that it is a realistic goal for a serious turbo 4k from someone with a lot of hands on experience with turbo 4ks.
i would guess a more reasonable figure would be about 150hp at wheels for the amount of money i am spending. add an extra $800 on the budget and i can have forged pistons...
7k manifold will arrive early next week. now i just have to work out what to do with the intercooler piping etc. i think i will shift the radiator over about 15-20cm to the drivers side so i can cut into the metal between the grille and the motor, or even run a 90 deg bend off the throttle body across to where the battery would go but then the water outlets off the head could get a bit tight... not really sure.
stew/greg - have you seen the manifolding on angela's ke10? its really strange, the turbo is on the wrong side of the motor... does the exhaust come under the sump or under the pulleys or what? it seems way to far way from the head, it must be pretty laggy.
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Wed, 16 July 2003 04:15
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heres a photo for grega and stew
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: EFI Turbo 4K
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Thu, 17 July 2003 02:33
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its going to be a bit of a struggle....
if i have to mount it on the drivers side at least the exhaust will be in the right spot for the next motor (13BT)
ab
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