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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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 Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 08:20
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hi folk,
my trusty turbo-18R has picked up an worrying vibration/rattle in its head.
When you rev it to over 2K then either let throttle shut of simply hold it at that speed, it picks up a nasty, sharp rattle/vibration (like 1/2" socket extension vibrating on loose air-cleaner cover when left there by accident). Other sound that came to mind was a mower with oversized blades.
Have lifted the rocker cover - all the gaps look kinda OK [can't find my measuring gauges ;( ] and there's no broken edges on valve stems or cam follower tappets. Cam chains are tight. There's a lot of blowby or petrol fumes polluting the oil as at the last oil change, it was v.black from only 4200K od driving (i change evey 5000k). Is using way too much petrol at the moment.
The engine has lost power - the turbine whistle is only audible at over 0psi boost (used to hear it spool up when heading towards positive manifold pressure). There's no oil smoke or other exhaust signals - but the turbo housing isn't radiating a huge amount of heat (as per usual) tho is still v.hot. Manifold vacuume at idle has dopped (from >20mmHg, to about 16-18mm).
My gut feeling is that one-or-more valve guides is stuffed - or even worse, the lack of leaded petrol (i usually run Prem UL with a tank of LRP every 5th or 6th tank) has buggered the valve seats. The intake turbine appears to be OK (had to look down carbi at it.
I was going to contact with Cool1's mobile mech Trevor Horsnell - but any suggestions/similar experiences???
tia
charles
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 08:43
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its been said a few times by a few people:
- Japan had unleaded petrol from 1976
- Hence ALL Japanese (that includes Toyota) motors made 1976 and after are made for unleaded (hardened valve seats)
- Cars in AUS continued to run Leaded since no ULP available, and when it was it was CRAP.
- Therefore your 18R-C has no need for LRP, nor a valve lube of any kind. It just needs higher octance ULP, like PULP, Since jap ULP is 95 RON.
Other than that, i really have no idea what that could be.
I have a strange rattle myself from around 2300rpm when i apply some accelleration..... but i dont know what it is. That's in my 18R-GU though.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 09:58
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hi guyz...
M.W.P. : no smoke (startup or off-throttle). Try the URL in the sig - it's the current site for the car - i've been pretty slack updating it - too busy building megasquirt, dissasembling a RA40 with a 1G-GTE and family stuff.
My older RA23 used to have a cam chain rattle - once it got up some oil pressure, the tensioners started to work and rattle went away. Yors sounds familiar.
I never got hardened valve seats/stems when i got the motor rebuilt - i figured that by the time they wore out, the rest of the motor would be in need of care also.
THE WITZL: I'm think the valves were only cleaned up and re-faced when the engine was rebuilt, but new guides were put it - so as long as the rebuilder (swift engines @ rocklea) used toyota valves and valve guides, running mostly UL (BP's 98RON premium UL being the preferred) isn't going to lead to premature valve wear? well, not within ~20,000K of rebuild.
so (gulp) i hope it's not something more dramatic... oh well...
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 10:11
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I had a funny rattle at about 1600rpm, turned out to be a loose exhaust manifold...
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
ballarat
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Sun, 22 June 2003 23:44
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| M.W.P. wrote on Mon, 23 June 2003 01:00 |
Hmm... for some reason i was thinking it was an 18R which cant take ULP, where the 18R-C of course can.
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hi sorry guys, little OT, but if this right? can i run my 18R-C on ULP, in particular PULP?
i had read this on other web sites, but why i havn't done it is my parents had an L300 mitsu express van and it was reported to be ULP OK, even on one of the ULP OK lists, but after my dad run it on ULP for about 2 months, he had to get the head rebuilt, and never run it on ULP again.
i am asking because in the very near future i am going to get the head ported and shaved, and i was going to get a ULP conversion (hardened valve seats) but from what i've been reading here, i might not have to.
thanks
ev
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 00:29
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you most likely will not have to. 
check with your engine guy though!
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Location:
Mackay, Nth Queensland
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 02:29
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not sure whether you have a carby setup or efi, however for carbies (especially dual sidedrafts) have you checked if they are tightened on properly as they can make quite a noise when they're not. you can put rubber gaskets between the head and carby which reduces vibration from the carbies reducing the noise.
regards,
jarrod.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 02:30
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I hate to put a damper on things, but I got a rattle in the 18RG once. Thought it was from the head but after pulling that off and not finding anything, I pulled the whole engine down. Turned out I had spun a number one big end 
Seeing as I had only had the motor rebuilt about 4 months earlier, I was a bit pissed off 
Serves me right for not getting the rods resized.
The engine would make the rattle worst around 2000rpm, but would be there all the way up through the rev range.
Easy way to check is when you drain the oil, check for any large pieces of white metal (bearing metal) in the oil, Best to do this in bright sunlight.
Hope that it isn't it for you though...
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Location:
Sydney - Northern Beaches
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 10:36
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My 18-rc used to make lots of interesting rattels, after replacing the 2 brocken timing chain guides, the timming chain and associated stuff, it got rid of allot of them, but theres still some there. I'd definatly do the tapits, even if they look/feel right.
a bit off topic but I'd be very interested in seeing your turbo set up. What sort of turbo did you use, blow/suck through?, how much time/ money did you put in, any info would be great.
thanks
Alan
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Mon, 23 June 2003 11:21
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hi folks,
M.W.P.: | Quote: |
Good luck with the MS... are you going to EFI the 18R, or use it on somthing else?
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i want to get the 18R running EFI (and hopefully MJL or MJLJ for ignition) before it snuffs it. Then after that it's the 1G-GTE - probably with a manual as the auto needs the toyo ECU?
THE WITZL: when i built the motor i actually went thru three engines from the wreckers to find a good one, 1 had rust between pistons/bore, 2 which was under cover and had intact plugs/head/manifolds had water in bores - so it's possible that the head came from an older 18R. I vaguely recall the engine builder saying that i should consider hardened seats but that was a few years ago.
SlatemazZ (jarrod): i've found one rattle source tonight - hand-made heat-shield between manifold and carbi - but yep, been over every bolt i can get a socket to. 
earlyrolla: changed oil about 200k ago - was v.black but no shiney stuff at bottom of collection pan. Note: have used HPR40 for last two changes, prior to that it mobil S1. I got the whole bottom end (pistons thru to clutch) balanced during rebuilding - tho it's never been super smooth - but i put that down to the inordinate amount of power it now produces and a worn-out-never-reconditioned gearbox 
simulant (alan): yep - something in the head is looking like a culprit. i hadn't thought about the guides. You can read more about the turbo on the site in my sig - but in a nutshell:
- kit from Mike Vine turbochargers (was built for a non-payer)
- uses 175CD zenith suck-thru carb
- way too much time/money (see the budget part of the site) 
- go EFI - might cost more, but even modded carb/ign can't deal with boost properly - unless you either run it detuned (like me) or with some kind of expensive pinging/detonation control (water+methanol inj). I wish i had gone 18RG, then access to all kinds of EFI+IGN would be open to me. oh well... it was choice between the turbo, and a tired but straight RA23+18RG which i stumbled over about 2 weeks after buying the kit.
- if you want up-close-and-personal i'm in kenmore, brisvegas - PM me.
regards,
thechuckster
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Location:
Rocky Mountains, Canada
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Rattle sound in 18R head when revved to over 2K
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Tue, 24 June 2003 12:31
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hiya M.W.P.
i'm going to modify the custom one already on the motor - the plenum needs to be bigger and it needs bigger plate area for throttle body to mount on.
I was going to get inj bosses welded to the manifold on the side closer the head but first need to identify inj's that have a conical spray pattern at 45degree off-centre (like a garden spray). i can't get anything to point directly at the backs of the valves without relocating the turbo. which i'm not.
Anyone got inj books with lotsa pic's?
i've got a t/b from a newish 6cyl GM, plus an old camira t/b that's a 2 stage unit (small primary, big seconday thats starts to open at about 30-40% primary open). Am oen to advice as to which to use.
In Oz, EDIS was never used as separate unit - the Ford EEC-iV used it was embedded on the main board. Bummer that really, as it looks pretty neato compared to the GM solution (needing two sensor rings on the crank).
I sent a WU money order to a guy in the US (near seattle) to send back a 4cyl EDIS unit but it's (so far) a non show. But if it don't show, then yep, its MSp with a locked dizzi.
Next step? injector shopping then welding time...
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