| Author | Topic |
|---|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
 Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 30 June 2002 12:08
|
 |
Hey All,
After having my Supra for 3 weeks now i have come across a problem where my instruments on the dash "blackout" now and again when i either use my Windows or when i have my lights on, turning and braking... Does anyone have any idea? It is driving me up the wall.
Also now and again i have trouble where the digital Tacho meter now and again doesn't work. I stop switch off the car and when i switch it back on it works again...
Does anyone have any idea?
Cheers
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 00:05
|
|
How much did you pay for your car again? 
Anyways, I'd be checking all the connections behind the dash. Usually can't come loose, but I'd just start with the simple things and work my way back.
|
|
|
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 01:25
|
|
HI,
I'm sure a mate of mine had the same problem and he said it was because the battery wasn't powerful enough. That the electrics in the MA-61 suck alot of juice out of the battery. Maybe check that.
I have two MA-61's, one stock, the other with a 7MGTE. Both haven't any problems with the dash blacking out.
Anyway goodluck
Cheers
Supraman.
84 Supra Turbo
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 07:25
|
|
Whoever told you that was full of crap. Once the engine is running, the battery does not supply any "power" to the electrical system - the alternator takes all of the load. And you'll need a LOT more than a few lamps and LED's to overload the alternator!
This problem sounds like a bad earth somewhere. Get under the dash (easier said than done I know) and find the earth point(s). You'll probably find some corrosion in there causing a dry connection. Clean it up and it will be good as gold again.
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 07:58
|
|
The battery does supply some power dude when the car is running sorry.
ZZT231, I have the same problem with my MA61 dash as well, yep it also happens when i have the headlights and heater on, usually anything that draws quite a few amps.
Also is happens almost all the time when it rains but when i've got the wipers and other things off. I agree with norbie, i think its an earth but i couldn't be bothered getting under the dash for it. I cant stand being under car dashes, spent half my life under there.
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
 Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 08:41
|
|
Thanks for your advice...
 Does anyone know where there are grounding points in the car for the dash
I don't have a faintest idea where it could be. I have spent the whole day trying to fiddle around near the dash and i believe it's easier to mess around under the SA63 then it is to mess around in the MA61  ...
Cheers.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 09:59
|
|
| SUPRAGTE wrote on Mon, 01 July 2002 5:58 PM |
The battery does supply some power dude when the car is running sorry.
|
How? A correctly functioning alternator supplies 13-14.5 volts, while the battery is never more than 12 volts. As long as the voltage is above 12 volts, this means the alternator is doing all the work and the battery is simply providing extra load!
Of course the battery acts as a sort of buffer when there is a sudden demand for large amounts of power (eg when you turn on your high-beams), but this is only for a fraction of a second.
|
|
|
Location:
South Australia
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 01 July 2002 10:18
|
|
| Quote: |
while the battery is never more than 12 volts
|
mmm Not quite true. Most car batteries will quite happily hold 13-14 volts.
Agree with checking the earthing, right back to battery terminals and earth straps engine/body. Should try and check what voltage you're getting at the battery with accesories on, you could have a dud regulator or diode.
Cheers
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 02 July 2002 08:22
|
|
WTF??? I have never seen a conventional lead-acid car battery with significantly more than 12 volts at the terminals (with the engine off of course). When have you seen this?
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 02 July 2002 10:44
|
|
Mate whoever told me that was full of crap!!!!!
I'd be very carefull of what you say dude, my old man actually told me this. He happens to be an auto-electrical teacher at TAFE and has been for longer than you have been alive.
I've done an Advanced diploma in electrical technology and am an electrical technician. Sorry with our combined knowledge it is "all crap" as you put it.
12 Volts is the nominal voltage figure for these type of car batteries. They actually have something like 13.1 volts when you add the idividual cell voltages up.
If you take your battery out of your car and put a charger on it i garuntee you will see alot more than 12 volts. That is after you have taken off the charger.
Run your car and put an ammeter in series in your alternator and at certain points ie when there isn't much load on the alternator you wont see and current flowing into the battery, this means that it isn't supplying and power. So if the alternator isn't supplying any power and the battery doesn't where is the power comming from to run your ignition coil????
| Quote: |
Once the engine is running, the battery does not supply any "power" to the electrical system - the alternator takes all of the load.
|
|
|
|
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 02 July 2002 11:08
|
|
So u're saying that with headlights and wipers ( or a combination of appliances) on in a MA61 supra that it will eventually stop due to running out of electrical power ??
What u propose is that once running, the stock electrical system is not self sufficient. How can this be ? the more you drove it the flatter your battery would get !!!
Glad I bought a jza70 !!
Matt
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 02 July 2002 22:02
|
|
Yup,
Matt is right...
My ute does that... you drive and slowly loose functions - like lights, blinkers, spark... Till the battery goes flat! then it stops.
I had a simmilar prob with too much current draw in the celica... the amp would draw so much current it would skip the cd player.... But this is a big amp... i upgraded the cables and all good now...
You may have some kind of strange circuit in your car where some one has rewired or spliced into wires they shouldn't have... so when you use an accessory it draws from another...
Does this problem happen consistantly or intermittantly?
Cheers
Stew
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 06:56
|
|
supragte: remind me never to get you to do any electrical work for me, yeah?
go back and read your notes on back EMF before you start taking about a battery's volatge.
toy77: check the alt + reguator + charging circuit in your ute. sounds ike your running exclusively off the battery as the alternator/regulator isnt working.
cheers
ed
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 07:23
|
|
This is some of the most bass-ackwards thinking I've come across in quite a while!
If the alternator cannot provide enough current and the battery has to take up the slack, your electrical system has serious problems and needs to be rectified. As someone has already pointed out, such a situation would result in flat batteries all over the place - but strangely enough, that simply doesn't happen!
I might add that whenever there is current moving from the battery to the alternator (ie the battery is providing power to the electrical system because the alternator can't keep up), the "charge" light on your dash lights up immediately. That is its function - it lets you know when the alternator isn't doing its job. But guess what, my charge light doesn't come on under any conditions when the engine is running. Just as you would expect really.
As for car batteries measuring 13 volts across the terminals - in which parallel universe does this occur? I've put a voltmeter on many a car battery and never seen such a thing! Yours must be special I guess.
So tell me more about your l337 qualifications...
|
|
|
Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 07:28
|
|
Thanks Ed,
I know that my charging system is stuffed.. i only drive the ute bout once a month, and have no motorvation to work on it in winter.....
Cheers
|
|
|
Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 08:42
|
|
One thing I have learnt the hard way, just because your dash light says your alternator is charging doesn't mean you're not using more power than it is making. On two of my previous cars I found that despite travelling at a reasonable speed using my foglights and spotlights on and off on a long trip at night would drain my battery to the point where my car cut out.
In one car I had volt meter, ammeter and warning light. As long as your alternator is charging the volt meter will read this voltage and the warning light will not come on. The ammeter is the only way to tell if the electrical load you are using is too high. If it swings negative, your battery is being drained.
Both these vehicles had charging systems in good condition with good batteries.
Back to the question at hand.
A few simply places to check first to maybe determine your problem are -
is the fan belt tight
is your voltage regulator working correctly
To eliminate insufficent alternator size as a suspect, if you pull over the car as soon as everything dims ors cuts out and the engine is still able to restart easily then this is not the problem. Other things to consider include putting additional earth straps between the battery and the body, and the body and the engine block (ensure a good bare metal contact). Some cars tend to have piddly little earth straps that corrode easily.
I would also recommend to anyone worried about their electrical system to get an accurate ammeter. A volt meter only tells you the condition of your alternator, not how much load your electrical system is under.
Purple Beasty
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 09:28
|
|
| Norbie wrote on Wed, 03 July 2002 5:23 PM |
As for car batteries measuring 13 volts across the terminals - in which parallel universe does this occur?
|
it is possible when measuring static EMF 'only', not the operating potental of the battery. EMF will always be higher than operating V, which is ~12v. other than that, Norbie, im with you all the way.
As for the orig question (sorry, sidetracked) check that the switches you operate (the ones that send the systems down) arent shorting out, and providing massive current drain. make sure the coorrect fuses are loaded, and see if theres any backyard wiring behind the dash that could confuse things.
also, check the V regulator.
cheers
ed
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 09:54
|
|
Toyo3T ill just say it a bit clearer.
Your alternator doesn't supply "ALL" the elctrical power once the car is running. It charges the battery when it's voltage is too low. It works on a sliding scale. IF you have no massive loads and the battery can supply these without the voltage dropping too low the alternator wont begin charging yet.
The lower the voltage the harder the diodes in the alternator are driven. Otherwise if the alternator went flat out all the time your system voltage would go through the roof.
| Quote: |
go back and read your notes on back EMF before you start taking about a battery's volatge.
|
love your work ed!
Back EMF is the induced voltage into a primary winding from the collapse of an electromagnetic field in the secondary.
I dont see how back emf has any relation to a surface voltage test on a battery.
| Quote: |
supragte: remind me never to get you to do any electrical work for me, yeah?
|
again i love your work ed!
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 09:57
|
|
Ed ill keep it really simple.
1.take your battery out of your car
2.put a battery charger on it for a while
3.disconnect the charger
4.measure the voltage
5.in this universe you will see more than 12 volts
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
South of Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 14:21
|
|
I got a problem that is a little similar.
sorry to hijack the thread, but yer.
My lights behind the air conditioning controls dont come on, brand new battery, so its nuffin to do with that........could it just be a loose wire?
probly is, but damm hard tryna find out which one it would be.... 
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 14:43
|
|
goddamnit you are a tool...
Static potential of a battery is COMPLETELY different to the potential measured under load. EMF, electromotive force, doesnt only apply to forces experienced in primary windings. It is ALSO responsible for the potential that you measure of battery type power source in a zero state current draw situation.
being an advanced dimploma holder, youd know that without the prsence of a current, there is NO resistance. and as you'd also know, resistance is responsible fr the reduction in potential between two points.
So, taking these two Facts: when no current is being drwan from a battery, the internal resistance of a battery is NIL, and thus the TOTAL EMF of the battery can be read at the terminals with a potentiometer. this reading is an OVERESTIMATION of the operating potential of the battery, as the seccond current is drawn from a battery, its internal resistance becomes apparent, and the potential between the terminals DROPS.
so, keeping it VERY SIMPLE for you, my friend...
-all batteries have internal resistance
-battery on bench top has NO current draw
-without current draw, no internal resistance is measurable
-THUS youll get over 12V (usualy 13.5 ish - anyone?) when you measure a battery in your garage. Put it in the car (not running) put the lights on, and then measure the potential - around or under 12v. start the car, and watch the potential go up (to even 16v) thanks to the alternator.
the battery should only contribute to the runnings of the car for brief periods of time when the alternator cannot compenstae for some huge current demand like Sub + driving lights + high beam.
the rest of the time it is on charge, or sitting idle.
take a fucking pill and chill out dude
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 14:46
|
|
steve...
the bulb's probably just blown.
pull the face panel off and fish out the little bulb. grab a new one for 40c and replace
cheers
ed
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
South of Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 03 July 2002 23:25
|
|
Cheers Ed....see i knew it would be simple....i'll give that a go... 
btw, same problem in the tarago we got too....although one day we drove over one of them cattle gate things, the ones on the ground that cows would get messed up on if they walked across, and the lights came on, just for a few seconds, after that they went off, and have never worked again....
ahhwell, thanks again
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
South of Wollongong
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 04 July 2002 06:29
|
|
All done!! 
Light globe - $1
Pack of blue covers - $2.30
Back to working again, thanks for ya help 
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 04 July 2002 08:18
|
|
Sorry ed your the tool that thinks but doesn't know what they are talking about!!
here read below a quote from your post
| Quote: |
go back and read your notes on back EMF before you start taking about a battery's volatge.
|
sorry but back emf has nothing to do with it as i said and i say it again.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 04 July 2002 08:21
|
|
| ed_ma61 wrote on Thu, 04 July 2002 12:43 AM |
the battery should only contribute to the runnings of the car for brief periods of time when the alternator cannot compenstae for some huge current demand like Sub + driving lights + high beam.
the rest of the time it is on charge, or sitting idle.
|
Precisely what I was trying to say from the beginning, thanks for putting it better than I did! I really would have thought this was bleeding obvious, but I guess some people just like to complicate matters...
|
|
|
Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 04 July 2002 12:36
|
|
| SUPRAGTE wrote on Thu, 04 July 2002 6:18 PM |
Sorry ed your the tool that thinks but doesn't know what they are talking about!!
|
typo, my bad. EMF not 'back' EMF. HOWEVER if you had a brian in your head, and with all your training you shouldve realised my simple typographical mistake (note ive not referred to it as 'back EMF since?), and still have realised what i was talking about instead of continuing to argue like an ignoramus.
for christ's sake, are you capable of shutting up and listening once in a while? maybe youll learn something!
for anyone who cares, have a read here...
SUPRAGTE i suggest you, more than anyone, read it.
http://members.aol.com/alargiader/battery.html
cheers
ed
|
|
|
Location:
North Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 08 July 2002 10:18
|
|
Yep your right.
It says a fully charged battery is between 12.65 and 12.95 volts.Which is usable current. Not the surface charge voltage which can be alot higher which isn't anything that represents the real voltage.
Forget replying to this i cant be bothered clearing out my inbox with updates on this thread.
You win.
|
|
|
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
 Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Wed, 10 July 2002 01:04
|
|
Since power is affected by going over bumps, this proves the fault is a bad connection. Get someone to watch the dash while you pull and poke all the cables, connectors behind the dash and where they come back out, in and around the engine compartment.
Check also the fuse box and poke the fuses.Immediately they see the dash affected, sing out so you can pinpoint it further.
To check a multiconnector,use needle nose pliers to pull on each wire on each side of the connector.
Pedro
*****
|
|
|
Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
|
 Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 06:28
|
|
hmmm
i just got an ma61, and i have this exact problem. its a bit of a pest not being able to have high beams, heater and rear demistor on without the speedo, tacho and all other gauges going walkabout on me... and plus the petrol gauge always says a different level...
so is the consensus that it is in fact a bad earth? i dont really know shit about electrics... (and about year 12 level electronics via physics, but cant remember)
so can someone (shane?  ) give me some hand-holding steps on what to do??
thanks y'all
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 06:32
|
|
|
Errr...you Mexican
|
|
|
Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 06:36
|
|
theres mexicans sabotaging my new car? 
 
|
|
|
Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 09:32
|
|
can anyone help? i dont know how much petrol i have- the level changes every time the dash goes walkies....
thanks
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 13:09
|
|
You have a PM EVIL... Hope your problem is solved 
As Mine has
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 13:19
|
|
| Evil_Foetus wrote on Sun, 14 December 2003 20:32 |
can anyone help? i dont know how much petrol i have- the level changes every time the dash goes walkies....
thanks
|
I have that problem now with my Dash! But the thing is that it works perfectly.
I just hate the dash for being slow in giving an actual fuel reading and also...
CONGRATULATIONS in using the search function as this thread never dies 
Cheers.
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 13:32
|
|
since I cant be bothered searching thru all the posts to see if this has been said....
ma61s are infamous for having a pissy little earth cable - it's not big enough. get rid of it, and replace it with the biggest, fattest cable you can find, and this should fix the problem.
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Sun, 14 December 2003 14:00
|
|
| draven wrote on Mon, 15 December 2003 00:32 |
since I cant be bothered searching thru all the posts to see if this has been said....
ma61s are infamous for having a pissy little earth cable - it's not big enough. get rid of it, and replace it with the biggest, fattest cable you can find, and this should fix the problem.
|
That is what I have mentioned to Evil, or along those lines... Thanks Draven for giving some backup facts
|
|
|
Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 15 December 2003 01:22
|
|
thanks tim and greg, very helpful
and yes, its taken me ages, but i finally have been able to use the search function effectively. whoohoohoho
|
|
|
Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 15 December 2003 09:43
|
|
|
Since here are so many eletrical gurus. I would like whatta hell is burning alternators in my parents Datsun Laurel. Alternator is burned four times in this year. Every freaking time diodes have exploded. I have already re-newed all the wires correctly. I have already tried two different alternators. This alternator has build-in regulator and it charges pretty constant 14.5v. Anyone that I have asked about this problem, haven't had any ideas what's going on. Should I change toyota alternator in.
|
|
|
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 15 December 2003 10:55
|
|
Diodes usually explode when they're overloaded, ie way too much current. Is there any possibility of a current leak somewhere? Have you ever heavily loaded the electrical system (eg jumpstarting another car)?
|
|
|
Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Mon, 15 December 2003 11:09
|
|
u can all try this
start yr car and disconnect the battery while its runnin
does the altenrater still keep enough power to keep engine running
one an old car i had the engine would stall
so that car needed the battery to run
on some new cars maybe due to havin higher output alternators i think they can run on the alternator
but beware doin this might overload the diodes in back of alternater
|
|
|
Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
|
Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 16 December 2003 12:54
|
|
|
Bumping the message above!
|
|
|
Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 16 December 2003 13:13
|
|
| sideshow wrote on Mon, 15 December 2003 22:09 |
u can all try this
start yr car and disconnect the battery while its runnin
|
Now I start worrying
| Quote: |
but beware doin this might overload the diodes in back of alternater
|
Now why did you even bother suggesting this? its like saying "look down the barrel of a gun see if its loaded, but look out you may blow your fucking head off!"
Remind me to get you todo some mains wireing for me i recon it would be really funny!
Allan
|
|
|
Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Tue, 16 December 2003 21:25
|
|
its ok melb is bit far for me to travel for work
but everyone is arguing on whats right and wrong and the problem isnt gettin fixed
but my theory will prove if the alternater needs the battery to run the car
im pretty sure the diodes wont blow if u dont overload the alternator if u dont turn any hi loading devices on
i have come across this prob in a celica once
each time the thermo was on and u used the power windows the dash would fade
now i dont know much about wanky emf crap but the best way to try and fix the problem is
find the ignition power to the dash
replace this ignition wire temporarily with a wire direct from the battery positive and then also replace the earth wires to the dash with heavy duty wires
if this doesnt work then get a new fukin dash
to me it seams like alot of these dashes have this problem
so its a fuck up made by toyota
|
|
|
Location:
Ballarat, Victoria
Registered:
March 2003
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 08 January 2004 01:32
|
|
|
just thought i better say another big fat earth cable from battery to the body and one from the motor to the firewall has fixed the problem.
|
|
|
I Supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.vic.au
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: Electrical Problems In MA61
|
Thu, 08 January 2004 03:22
|
|
Fantastic to hear Evil, I used a small 10amp wire from the battery to the negative point where the existing wire is connected and it solved my problems...
Cheers.
|
|
|
