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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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questions about dry sumps!
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Wed, 16 July 2003 12:42
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ok so lets say i have an AE111 (blktop) 4AGE into an ae86. and lets say i wanted to convert it to a race spec dry sumped oil system. i have a bottomless pit of money (dont we all?), and i want to use only TRD parts, and i can source them ok (yes yes this "world" is definately not real)
now what parts exactly are required?
how much is the total cost?
what type of oil is reccommended to use?
what are the benefits of a drysump (with cooler, breather and catchcan) oil system?
also what does an oilbreather do?
and is this a legal conversion for road regod cars?
thanks guys, ive googled and read bill sherwood's site, but still questions arise for you motorheads 
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Wed, 16 July 2003 13:14
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I looked into doing a dry sump a while ago. I got as far as getting a price on a "cheap" pump. $1800  Needless to say this is as far as went 
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Wed, 16 July 2003 18:02
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Yep, pricey stuff. You need things like a multi staged pump, a modified sump that'll have a couple scavenge pickups, possibly other scavenge points on the motor, an oil tank, usually designed to separate any air from the oil, lots of oil lines, & about 385 brackets to mount it all up.
As for the benefits, a dry sump oil system is way more advanced than breathers, coolers & catch cans. Dry sumps eliminate any oil surge that may be experienced in serious racing, which is where the oil in the sump rushes away from the oil pickup due to high acceleration, braking or cornering force, something you really wanna avoid if the motor is mega dollars (and if you're accelerating!), plus they also are capable of holding a nice big supply of oil ready keep your megabuck motor lubed up & happy. Another advantage is the motor can be mounted lower, which is a pretty desirable feature for a track car for balance & handling purposes. Because the sump no longer needs to store your oil, it becomes almost a flat pan, & is also less susceptible to damage.
I'm sure some people who actually know stuff about racing cars can come up with a whole lot more, but there's a start.
The thing with oil breathers, firstly, is every car (& motor I imagine) has one. Trying to keep it short, when the piston compresses the mix & it gets ignited, some of the gas gets past the pistons & piston rings & pressurises the crankcase. Without a vent, this pressure would just build & build & wouldn't be good, so this gas (which is a mix of unburnt fuel & air, exhaust & oil fumes & vapors, nasty stuff) is vented into the air intake of the motor & re-burnt.
Because this gas is pretty yucky, it doesn't help your motor out much, by gunking up your intake with oily deposits, reducing the amount of fresh cool air, & effectively lowering the octane rating of your fuel.
So to avoid this, some people install either a breather on the rocker cover vent, or install a catch can. A catch can catches any oil crap that's headed toward your intake, & then either vents the gas overboard (illegal) or vents the gas into the intake, with alot less oil in it. So the main difference is legal & illegal.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Fri, 18 July 2003 03:54
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| ae86drift wrote on Wed, 16 July 2003 22:42 |
now what parts exactly are required?
how much is the total cost?
what type of oil is reccommended to use?
what are the benefits of a drysump (with cooler, breather and catchcan) oil system?
also what does an oilbreather do?
and is this a legal conversion for road regod cars?
thanks guys, ive googled and read bill sherwood's site, but still questions arise for you motorheads
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what parts? as a minimum you will need a two stage and one pressure stage. if you want more pickup points, then you need extra scavenge stages (you need more scavenge stages as the oil comes out frothy). you'll need inline filters before each stage and also a couple of main normal filters (to clean oil further and need two to reduce restriction). you'll need an oil/air seperator (which needs to be vented to get rid of the air in the froth) and then a tank for the oil, or you can integrate the two things. since the scavenge pumps suck out a lot of oil, you'll also need to properly vent the engine, so that air can get in! otherwise you have very low pressures in the block, but the oil won't come out fast enough.
you also need to identify where the oil will be under accel/cornering loads, so you can modify the sump/head to fit pickups.
it would also help to chuck in an oil thermostat and cooler while you are spending $$ 
check out
http://www.razorperformance.com/pumps.htm for some nice lookin pumps.
there is a 5 stage dry sump pump on ebay at starting for $1200.
total cost? if bought new, you're looking (at a guess) at around $3-4000+ total for 3/4 stage pump, lines, fittings, tanks, cooler etc. and also sump mod costs.
oil? good quality full synthetic is the only way to go for high dollar motors.
the only benefit of a drysump is that you keep oil in your bearings under high acceleration or side loading. 1G+ loading is needed really (at 1G side load, the oil will be at 45deg angle in the sump). in wet sump the oil moves away from thepickup, the pickup draws in air, your bearings starve, and your motor dies.
the negatives are, the obvious cost, and also parasitic drag on the motor. just been reading Smokey Yunicks 'power secrets' and while it is aimed at hicksville chebby builders, some things are useful... and he reckons that a dry sump system running at 7-8000rpm will take about 8-10 hp to drive it. compared to a normal oil pump of maybe 2-4hp.
you don't need a catchcan in a dry sump system as you don't get positive crank case pressure (since the scavenge sections pull a vacuum), and the breather is for getting air into the crankcase, rather than letting it out.
i very much doubt that a dry sump conversion on something not too exotic would not be legal, or at least be frowned upon by the RTA  but that's not to say it is technically illegal. the RTA guidlines for LVM don't seem to mention it specifically (only had a quick flick tho).
no, i haven't installed a dry sump system, but i've spent the last week researching it .
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Sat, 19 July 2003 07:35
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Is there any reason you couldn't use an electric pump (eliminating engine drag) for this? At least to drive the pump, would also be able to be mounted anywhere, not need to be attached to the engine.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Sat, 19 July 2003 07:49
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main reason is you'd need a hefty motor to do it... like 8-10 hp!!
you might be able to get away with it for the scavenge pumps, but not for the pressure side of things.
as well, since the engines oil demand (and scavenge demand) will increase with revs, its kinda easier to just run it from the crank. electric motors stil have engine drag becuase they draw power, so the alternator puts more drag on the crank.. or the battery goes flat...
i've been thinking that you could make something up with the external oil pumps that are on some motors... if you get multiple plates to make them thicker, or make extra stages, could work out a bit cheaper... for the pump at least..
| clubagreenie wrote on Sat, 19 July 2003 17:35 |
Is there any reason you couldn't use an electric pump (eliminating engine drag) for this? At least to drive the pump, would also be able to be mounted anywhere, not need to be attached to the engine.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
sydney.au
Registered:
August 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Sun, 20 July 2003 07:12
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woah
thanks for the info guys
much appreciated especially oldcorollas and bigworm!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Berowra-Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Sun, 20 July 2003 09:48
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have you got an oil pressure light or guage in your car?
does the pressure ever drop or the light come on while cornering or take off?
if no then you don't need a dry sump system if yes then either get a dry sump system or top up your oil level if its low.
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
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Location:
Brisbane / Gold Coast
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Fri, 25 July 2003 03:30
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| crazyracer wrote on Tue, 22 July 2003 23:37 |
As far as doing it cheaper, I do know at least one person who has made his own dry sump pump using the oil pump gears (and housings - I think) from an old Holden V8.
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Like me?
This is one we made up from two sets of Holden oil pump gears, fitted to a milled alloy case we made at home. As you can see it's driven by the alternator.
The new system we're going to use will be much more simple, and have a grand total of two pipes. (yep!)
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: questions about dry sumps!
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Mon, 28 July 2003 13:41
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Yeah, like that, but he had made up new shafts and created a 3 stage pump. 2 for scavenge and 1 for pressurised oil feed to the engine.
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