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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Thu, 17 July 2003 18:41
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Hey all,
dug around a bit after cryogenics was brought up recently.
wondering if anyone has had parts done or considered it?
a few links.
the company trying to flog it off..
http://www.metal-wear.com/index.htm
an article/ad they put in a journal, written by their employees.
http://www.metal-wear.com/Articles/Heat%20Treat%20 Progress.pdf
metallurgical fact is that it can help with transforming retained austenite into martensite, after quench/temper heat treatments. this is successfully used, and has been proven by research, to work for things like gear teeth and hardened shafts, cam lobes, diff gears.. anything steel based that has surface hardening.
what these guys claim is that everything is improved by the treatment..
their claims that byt treating both brake pads and brake rotors, you get '2-3 times the life' out of both items, whilst giving 'better feel' at the same time. even 'increased efficiency' from alternators! the brake discs may well be true if they are surface hardened, but....
they acknowledge that although there is no research to back up most of their claims, it must work because more people are using it!! (like 50%+ of NASCAR teams)
anyways, what have other ppl heard about it?
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Thu, 17 July 2003 20:06
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I think that cryogenic treatment would work, but is that needed? Exept in serious racing cars. Whole site looks like info-commercial and aimed to some (I wont say american) suckers who would believe everything what is said there. I dont think that car factories use that treatment (prove me wrong) and wouldnt they use it if that really would make for example "both brake pads and brake rotors achieve 2-3 times the life out of both items, whilst giving 'better feel' at the same time. even 'increased efficiency' from alternators!".
My opinion is that they over-exaggerate achieved results. That said call me skeptic.
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Thu, 17 July 2003 22:23
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there is a place in revesby called the lsw group(cryotuff)
they rekon parts come back up to 300% stronger
i got some gearbox+diff internals treated for my mates turbo lancer there was 16kg of gearbox internals and it cost $88, for that price why not give it a try, the gearbox is still holding together fine
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Fri, 18 July 2003 09:04
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I would give a try for that price too. I still have hard time to believe that 300%.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
February 2003
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 Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sat, 19 July 2003 01:23
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it's been a while since i studied science but i think the freezing thing's about as good as Arnie's acting skills as Mr Freeze in the Batman movie - its bullshit.
To change the crystaline or chemical stucture of just about any moden alloy or steel requires it to be heated up (e.g. energy added) whether it's case hardening (e.g. surface treatment) or anealing (e.g. entire depth of item) or nitriding (heat in non-oxygen environment?) or some other process.
The chemical bonds (and that's all we're talking about here - there's nothing at the subatomic level happening) between the atoms in modern metal alloys have to be strong and require significant addition of heat (e.g. energy) to be changed otherwise an engine would never run - application of heat (e.g. combustion) would make it fail.
So how-the-hell can freezing help? It will make parts fragile while frozen, but once you take that cold away? its the same metal, duh? any phase/crystaline change that might of occuring during freezing will simply reverse itself as energy is added (e.g. warming back to room temp).
I think the freezing fad is based on dodgy science (like cold fusion) and worthless. If you've paid hard cash, then i think you're due a refund (false advertising, misleading scientific claims, etc)
Charles.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sat, 19 July 2003 07:24
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well, when you quench a steel to form martensite (from austenite) as is done with gear teeth, not all the austenite changes, so some is left over in a metastable state, by cooling down, you increase the driving force for change to the more stable martensite (which is itself metastable, but that's a bit diffrent  ) although the kinetics are very slow at low temps, the driving force is high but it still takes a long time (days instead of hours). this change will remain at room temp because it is more stable than it was previously (fro a free energy / thermodynamic point of view)
that cryo treatment works in this situation (for quenched and tempered parts with surface hardening) is a researched fact. what i question is the other crap like making plastics stronger, yet less brittle and more wear resistant... and especially the brake pad bit....
i think they are taking it a bit far
and 300%? it's pretty hard to make steel, especially gear steel, 300% stronger (i'm not sure it's even possible)
maybe they mean wear resistance, which might be possible depending on the failure mechanism of the surface....
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sat, 19 July 2003 08:44
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It sure is an interesting idea - sometime I do plan on getting some parts done, and seeing if I can compare them in any way to untreated parts, looking for an improvement. Sure, it's blown out of proportion, but there probably is SOME improvement available - and it is relatively cheap.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sat, 19 July 2003 08:49
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| Jayem wrote on Fri, 18 July 2003 06:06 |
I dont think that car factories use that treatment (prove me wrong) and wouldnt they use it if that really would make for example "both brake pads and brake rotors achieve 2-3 times the life out of both items, whilst giving 'better feel' at the same time. even 'increased efficiency' from alternators!".
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That would mean your customers of your particular make of car need to replace their parts less often....which = >$$$.....thats their motivation for NOT using it
Ta
Mani
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sat, 19 July 2003 14:41
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What car maker would like to be notorious because of weak and non-long lasting cars cars?
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: anyone ever had "cryogenic" treated parts??
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Sun, 20 July 2003 00:48
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ill let anyone put there car bits in my fridge for $88 no stress!
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AS USED IN 2 FAST 2 FURIOUS!!!!!!!!!!!
Better then naws!!!!
BUY IT NOWWWW!!!! $2000USD
FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY!!!
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