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TheStitt
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Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 01:41

Can People out there with Celica and Supra Manual's help me please. I've gone and put what I believe is a Celica W50 5 speed in my wagon. My Problems The Box has a really short 1st gear, I can virtually take off in second and with the 3.9 Diff ratio the old 4M is really over reving at 100kph in 5th. 5th feels like 4th in any other car. What i want to know is what are the gear box ratio's and diff ratio for the celica's that this box could of come from. Also I'm lead to believe that the W50 came in the Crowns, crona's??? and Supra's. Does that mean that there are a W50's or even W55 out there that with a diff ratio of 4.1 or 3.9 won't over rev the M series Engines. If there are W50 series box's out there with higher ratio's If any one has one I'll be glad to take it off your hands. Any help on the issue is muchly appreciated Thanks Luke (The) Stitt [Report message to a moderator]

gianttomato
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 01:54

W50 came out in Celicas, some Coronas (particularly the lift back models of the late 70's) and the MA4x series Supras. If you see any in Crowns and Corona Mk2, they are ring ins. The ratios have all been nicely laid out for you on this web page. Given that it is short in all gears, I suspect your problem is more the diff ratio. I'd check the Crown's diff ratio.....the 50 series had 3.909:1, 4.375:1 and the 'oh so woeful' 4.875:1. I honestly don't know what series they are but I have a sneaking suspicion they are something useless like an E series. Taragos and MX3x/6x Cressidas have these but I have no idea with regard to ratios or interchangeability. I hope this gets you on your way. [Report message to a moderator]

TheStitt
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 02:17

Dave From what we've got here the MS55 came with 4.1 , 4.373 4.73 and 4.875. My car has a 3.9 in it (don't know the origin). What I'm talking here is the Genuine Toyota Diffs and not the AMI Borgwarner Diff (which you can change the ratio's) Also we have a genuine toyota repair manual for the MS112 which shows service spec's for the W50 and W40 gear box's. After placing the original msg i did some further reading and it looks like the W58 is the solution to my problems as it has A lower 5th gear ratio. The web sites i was at state the it was behind M series Engines in the Supra's and Cressida's can any tell me the dif rato's of these cars. [Report message to a moderator]

Norbie
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 03:27

Manual MA61 Supra's came with a 3.9:1 ratio (Aus-delivered versions). Not sure about MA70's but I think they're either 3.7:1 or 3.9:1. I have a W50 in my Celica and I find the step between 4th and 5th is very small, ie it only drops the revs by a few hundred rpm. The W58 in my Supra is a different story - 5th brings the revs down a lot further. I reckon a W58 will solve your highway revving problems. [Report message to a moderator]

gianttomato
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 06:37

MS45 Crowns definitely ran 3.909:1 diffs (amongst others) and they do interchange with an MS55 Toyota (non BW AMI built POS) diff. My recollection is vague (as I was never into the 50 series) but I'm almost 100% certain they also came with a 3.909:1. Did you count the teeth on your diff or are you going off a hunch? Have you had a chat to Eric on CC? He is a 50 series encyclopaedia. The only other thing is you may have put in a P51 box....external appearance is identical to a W50 but they have a very short first gear and a 5th that is even closer to 4th than a W50. They apparently all had the most rearward shift position, and were found behind 18RG's. By Crowns, I meant the real models - yours and mine. [Updated on: Sat, 09 August 2003 06:58] [Report message to a moderator]

CelicaRA45
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Sat, 09 August 2003 08:02

dave i use ms45 /55 diffs as there F series and they came with as you said 3.9 4.1 and 4.3 ratios did the wagons come out with a lower ratio (4.8)maybe also there is a W box that had 3.8 in 1st gear truck ratios i believe [Report message to a moderator]

Norbie
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's

Sun, 10 August 2003 01:54

gianttomato wrote on Sat, 09 August 2003 16:37

The only other thing is you may have put in a P51 box....external appearance is identical to a W50 but they have a very short first gear and a 5th that is even closer to 4th than a W50. They apparently all had the most rearward shift position, and were found behind 18RG's.

It's unlikely you have a P51, but if you do, GIVE IT TO ME!!! Very Happy

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TheStitt
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Mon, 11 August 2003 00:53

Yeah Dave my current Diff had 3.9 stamped on it, it may be a MS45 Diff I don't know. Norbie your right the W58 I think would solve my problems but from what Rod was saying they don't bolt up. They have a completely different Bolt pattern to any other W box. So I'd have to find a W58 with a M bell housing. Possible??? Cheap???? So what Dad and I have come up with is to change the diff ratio to say 3.5 or 3.7. To do this initially and cheaply I'm going to remove the AIM diff from under dad's car, but put the lower holden ratio in change the tail shaft flange and just do the swap it from the Sedan to my wagon. That is the whole Rear axle assembly due to the different diffs and axles Permanently my solution is (when I get the funds) is to build up a hilux hybrid diff. From what I've been told the 4WD Hilux front diff is a F series Diff, ratio's are available to change the ratio down to 3.55 or I think there is a 3.7 its just coming up with the cash. With changing the diff ratio I know I'll loose some acceleration but I'll save a bit of cash on fuel with the lower reving 5. Also I'm hoping that the taller ratio brings the engine back into its talk curve at particular speeds and the car will actually pull up hills better??? Also I've got a 7MGE to bolt in so It should have more torque to drive the taller ratio. Thoughts would most appreciated GT and Norbie from your wealths of experience. [Updated on: Mon, 11 August 2003 00:55] [Report message to a moderator]

gianttomato
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Mon, 11 August 2003 01:16

Yeah, the W58 will not bolt up to a M-W50 bellhousing - the W50 and W58 bellhousing to gearbox bolt patterns are slightly different. You will need to get a M-W58 bellhousing from an MA61 or a 7MGE MA70. The AMI diffs are handy in that they have ratios that are interchangeable with the old Holden stuff so you have access to a lot of tall stuff. Of course they aren't banjo style so to change ratios you have remove the whole diff - the reason I hate them. I suppose you could do it in car but it would be a PITA. The 7MGE will be a huge improvement (power, torque, emissions, fuel consumption) in every respect over whatever SOHC motor is in there at the moment. It will really show you how dated the old SOHC motors are. My gut feeling would be to drop the 7MGE in, see what it is like and then pick a ratio according to that. I think it would be too hard to guess based on the old 2M. That said it'll be taller rather than shorter. [Updated on: Mon, 11 August 2003 01:20] [Report message to a moderator]

TheStitt
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Re: Gear Box Ratio's	Tue, 12 August 2003 09:59

Yeah I see the point of droping the 7M in and then sorting a ratio. I'm going to see if I can find a M-W58. I noticed what norbie was talking about, the lack engine rev change between 4th and 5th in the W50. The ratio's are just two close. I'll see If i can get a relatively cheap W58 and see if that is the better option. I think it will be because of the fact it is the Box that comes with the 7MGE in the Supra's and for weight and drivetrain interchange ability its easy to compare the crown and supra. [Report message to a moderator]

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