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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 06:55
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Bought a new light for the bathroom so I proceeded to swap the old one out and new one in.
Here's the scenario:
Out of the hole in the wall, there are three sets of wires.
Two have three wires (red, black, and green-yellow). The green-yellow goes out of one and in the other without any sign of breakage.
The last set has only two wires. Red and white.
Now, the socket that I pulled out had 4 sockets and had the two black wires twisted together and placed into one connector.
The reds were all twisted together and placed into another connector.
The white was in a socket of its own.
I memorised which sockets they went into, but then proceeded to forget during my cussing when I was trying to put the wires into the new light....
The new light has three sockets labeled, L, ground, and N.
Anyway, I didn't study the wires too carefully and automatically assumed that the white was the ground (green-yellow).
I put the red wires into L and the black wires into N.
Switched the mains back on and the lights were on, and stayed on, no matter what I did to the light switch.
Also, it seems like the exhaust fans in the two bathrooms are linked so that if one switch was on, BOTH exhaust fans would go on....
Very weird.
I tried swapping red and black around and got the same problems.
Now that I've studied the wires again, and noticed that one of the bundles out of the wall only has TWO wires, I'm thinking that the white line is the actual light.
So, should I connect it up with the black wires?!?
It's kinda hard doing all of this without a multimeter. 
I hope all of this made sense!
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Toymods Social Secretary
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 07:34
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get an electrician before you get yourself a fucky yahoo serious hairdoo
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Registered:
August 2002
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 08:17
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| BlackSupra wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 18:04 |
The wires don't always determine the voltage or +/-
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I would edit that ASAP before too many people read this  Lets get things clear, when it comes to mains wiring there is no such thing as +/-!!!
Nark, The red and white wire in the twin cable will most likely be the switch!
So the black wires will go the (N) white will go to (L) all the red wires will go to a (spare) or to a terminator.
Hope this makes sense!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 08:50
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If you do go ahead and do it, unscrew the switch off the wall ad check the colours of the wires going to it.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Epping, Sydney
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 09:03
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pft
it only becomes more dangerous if you do something wrong 
and 240 volts doesn't hurt *that* much
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 10:31
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Its not the volts that kill you 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 10:32
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let me rephrase
household power doesn't hurt that much
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Location:
1st street on the right
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:06
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Just dont touch two at once and it'll be ok. 
Get an elec if you haven't done it before or have one to show you, it wont kill you but it does tingle for a while. 
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:13
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| clubagreenie wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 22:06 |
Just dont touch two at once and it'll be ok.
Get an elec if you haven't done it before or have one to show you, it wont kill you but it does tingle for a while.
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None of this is true 
You only have to touch the active conductor and it could kill you. From memory it only takes .3 of a volt to put your heart out of beat and it turn make you have a heart attack.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:26
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 14:13 |
| clubagreenie wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 22:06 |
Just dont touch two at once and it'll be ok.
Get an elec if you haven't done it before or have one to show you, it wont kill you but it does tingle for a while.
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None of this is true
You only have to touch the active conductor and it could kill you. From memory it only takes .3 of a volt to put your heart out of beat and it turn make you have a heart attack.
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i was told it was the amps that killed you
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:30
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Thats true. But again it doesnt take anymore than 3 milliamps from memory
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
April 2003
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:36
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 14:30 |
Thats true. But again it doesnt take anymore than 3 milliamps from memory
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thats given if it does travel through your heart...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:38
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you need both to kill you
electric fences are a good example. they put out thousands of volts, but just give you a zap if you touch them.
low voltages dont carry very well (and have low current/amps), so you dont even get a zap from them (aa batteries that is - a 9 volt battery on your tongue will give you an idea of the power in them)
a DC converter will give you a good idea of what low voltage with (relatively) high amps does. 20V through a converter, if you wet your hands first, will send tingles up your arms (an electronics class well spent )
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:38
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Walk into your local hospital and ask how many kids come in for irregular heart beats from putting batteries on their tongues 
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:40
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 14:38 |
Walk into your local hospital and ask how many kids come in for irregular heart beats from putting batteries on their tongues
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BUT ITS SO COOL!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:50
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it only lasts a little while! (the irregular heartbeat and the tingling tongue).
I dont recommend trying it with 240 volts tho ... that does hurt a bit. Although to be perfect honest, the massive jerk resulting in my head hitting the underside of my desk hurt a lot more
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 12:52
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Ther irregular heartbeat will kill you if nothing is done about it! You cant just walk it off
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:03
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Its the amps that do the damage, but the volts that let it travel throughout your body.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:05
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pish tosh, mine went away (not that I recommend ignoring stuff liek that, but I ignore most things that require a doctor/hospital.) only been to hospital once, and I was unconscious so I didn't have a choice about it
frank - that's right. I was trying to say it, but came out in a bit of a confused mash
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:07
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Kinda why an electric fence doesn't do much to ya, but ya feel it ALL over.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:08
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| draven wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 23:05 |
pish tosh, mine went away
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I think you might of just been in shock! They didnt make defibrillators? for nothin
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:12
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 23:07 |
Kinda why an electric fence doesn't do much to ya, but ya feel it ALL over.
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An electric fence can kill a person this is why all commercial units are packaged for fencing around animals.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:14
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You'd have to be pretty unlucky to die from one, its a lotta volts but SFA amperage.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:14
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i nearly peed on an electric fence when i was drunk...
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:15
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 23:14 |
You'd have to be pretty unlucky to die from one, its a lotta volts but SFA amperage.
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I would hate to have you working with me if you rely on luck
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:16
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You'd wanna hope you caught it on an off cycle...they pulse every now and then, I remember the first time I got shocked by it...was funny shit.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:17
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 21:15 |
| justcallmefrank wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 23:14 |
You'd have to be pretty unlucky to die from one, its a lotta volts but SFA amperage.
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I would hate to have you working with me if you rely on luck
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Who's relying on luck, obviously not f'ing around with electricity period would be the safest option, but if you did get shocked its going to be a lot less likely to cause serious harm than playing around with 240v mains power!
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:20
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Unstable or not, its less current than an electric fence, most of the ones I've dealt with (read: climbed over) are battery powered.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:21
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FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT!!
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:22
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meh, I'm just chillin'
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:24
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Your making a fool of yourself man. A battery has nothing to do with anything! 12v from a bettery is about 10000 times more deadly than 240v from the wall socket. Batteries supply direct current mains is alternating current.
As I said earlier it only takes a few milli amps. Electric fences are not going to be a perfect sine wave like mains power.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:26
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Meh anyway I know jack shit Just keep playin with your electric fences and one day your so called luck will run out.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:27
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frank, i think cool1 knows his shit regarding this topic
but feel free to fight all you want... i have a few free minutes:P
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:28
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Take a chill pill dude, just discussing...sheez, somebody needs to get laid...
I'm asking a legitimate question here, on what grounds is it worse?
I've had enough for tonight, I've got uni shit to do
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 13:32
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well i say whatever hurts less is less likley to kill you
pain=death
and 250v hurts more than electric fence
therefore it is more dangerous.
unless you have a fuckup heart in which case blame your parents, or mabye yourself for getting zapped in the 1st place.
but seeing as i have no electrical knowledge whatsoever dont listen to me as i am probably wrong. (says he who managed to short out both his dash lights and his turbo timer in the one foul earthing disaster, and decided to pay an auto electrician from that point onwards)
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I supported Toymods
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 20:05
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jeez kids, IU go to sleep for a few hours and a shitfight emerges
cool is right (read my post above about the 9v battery on the tonguwe and 20V DC converter)
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Home wiring help
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Wed, 13 August 2003 23:20
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Another thing with DC is that since it's a constant current, if you grab a wire running DC, your muscles will tense up and hold the wire more firmly.........
With AC, you'll jerk around and most likely drop the wire real quick.
Anyway, that's 4 people who've told me that White goes to L, Black to N, and Red to a connector. So I'm off to buy a connector today (everything bloody closes at 5:30 in Canberra ) and I'll do it tonight.
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Toymods Social Secretary
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 02:14
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Nark.... go to Jaycar in Fyshwick
As for the little bitch fight going on here....
The argument put forward by cool1 in theory is correct.
However, as homer says, "In theory, communism works"
The point that the electric fence will produce a waveform that is "chopped up as hell" is an overstated exaggeration. The most common form of electric fence generator is the battery operated versions most small paddocks etc use. These generate usually around 5-10kV from a 6V square battery, and are required to be current limited for fucken obvious reasons. (if you don't know why, don't argue)
The statement that the wave could be 4mA for 50ms and then 3mA for 500ms is complete BS. These devices operate using a capacitor (rough explanation), and in all my experiments, time discharge logging and otherwise i have NEVER seen a capacitor discharge in an irregular fashion as you state.
The other type of electric fence generator is the type used in most larger farms (like at Toobs' place). These operate using the same type of electronics - typically a large discharge capacitor with a time regulating circuit and current limiting protection. Operate usually a bit higher than 5kV.
The crux of my argument is, that yes the waveform can be "chopped up as hell" at varying points and varying times in an electic fence circuit since the wiring is usually very rough. HOWEVER, the devices that generate electric fences have protection circuitry that limits the output to that which is safe and non-lethal. Hence by the basic principles of physics (energy can't be created) an electic fence isn't as dangerous as stated.
Personal experience - i have been shocked by both of the above. The battery operated version gave a zap varying from a small tickle to a decent whack that made me jump (was installing this unit for a friend).
The mains operated unit i only have been shocked by once - it was like a punch in the back which made me jump like buggery (i swore that my friend had just hit a golf ball into my back )
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 02:22
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| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 12:14 |
Nark.... go to Jaycar in Fyshwick
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Hmm... Didn't even know there was one in Fyshwick....
| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 12:14 |
The mains operated unit i only have been shocked by once - it was like a punch in the back which made me jump like buggery (i swore that my friend had just hit a golf ball into my back )
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That happened to me once. I've got a fair bit of martial arts training in me too so I felt someone smack me in the back so I rolled with it and nearly backhanded my Mum who was standing behind me......
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 02:34
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| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 12:14 |
Nark.... go to Jaycar in Fyshwick
As for the little bitch fight going on here....
The argument put forward by cool1 in theory is correct.
However, as homer says, "In theory, communism works"
The point that the electric fence will produce a waveform that is "chopped up as hell" is an overstated exaggeration. The most common form of electric fence generator is the battery operated versions most small paddocks etc use. These generate usually around 5-10kV from a 6V square battery, and are required to be current limited for fucken obvious reasons. (if you don't know why, don't argue)
The statement that the wave could be 4mA for 50ms and then 3mA for 500ms is complete BS. These devices operate using a capacitor (rough explanation), and in all my experiments, time discharge logging and otherwise i have NEVER seen a capacitor discharge in an irregular fashion as you state.
The other type of electric fence generator is the type used in most larger farms (like at Toobs' place). These operate using the same type of electronics - typically a large discharge capacitor with a time regulating circuit and current limiting protection. Operate usually a bit higher than 5kV.
The crux of my argument is, that yes the waveform can be "chopped up as hell" at varying points and varying times in an electic fence circuit since the wiring is usually very rough. HOWEVER, the devices that generate electric fences have protection circuitry that limits the output to that which is safe and non-lethal. Hence by the basic principles of physics (energy can't be created) an electic fence isn't as dangerous as stated.
Personal experience - i have been shocked by both of the above. The battery operated version gave a zap varying from a small tickle to a decent whack that made me jump (was installing this unit for a friend).
The mains operated unit i only have been shocked by once - it was like a punch in the back which made me jump like buggery (i swore that my friend had just hit a golf ball into my back )
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What a load of crap 
Anything that induces an electric shock can be lethal! You say that you have NEVER seen a capacitor discharge in an irregular fashion this just proves you are the biggest tool! If you knew what a capacitor was and how it was made you would know that they charge and discharge completely quicker and slower depending on temperature, voltage waveform and a who bunch of other things.
I'm not saying this stuff because I've worked at Jaycar(because I haven't), I'm saying this because I'm qualified on this subject. When you go to college and work in this industry for 6 years then come back and speak ya knowledge!
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 05:36
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| Nark wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 12:22 |
| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 12:14 |
Nark.... go to Jaycar in Fyshwick
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Hmm... Didn't even know there was one in Fyshwick....
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And they close at 5:30 too....
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 07:08
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jeez kids
just leave it at "people who dont know what they're talking about.. stay away from electricity. people who think they know waht they're talking about.. do waht you like but dont come crying back to us from a coma"
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Location:
Western Sydney
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May 2002
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 08:16
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| Cool1 wrote on Wed, 13 August 2003 23:24 |
12v from a bettery is about 10000 times more deadly than 240v from the wall socket. Batteries supply direct current mains is alternating current.
As I said earlier it only takes a few milli amps. Electric fences are not going to be a perfect sine wave like mains power.
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I'll take my chances working on the car as opposed to working with 240v mains
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 09:51
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er
car electrics hurt like hell too. and if what cool just said is true, more deadly
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Toymods Social Secretary
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 11:43
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cool1. Shut your mouth before you blab about what i do or don't know.
I am aware of your background, perhaps you should become aware of mine before rattling off again.
Yes of course i am aware of the discharge properties, chemical makeup, physical makeup and physical properties of most common capacitors..... what i was trying to explain is that there is a limitation in these given circuits, and its not possible to exceed these limitations due to the nature of the circuitry.
When i said i never have seen a capacitor discharge irregularly, i meant in a given circuit. Of course in varying conditions it will! I kinda explained that point badly 
FYI - Telecommunications Engineering Student, not just a Jaycar employee (its just a job)
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 11:47
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*hands witz and cool a tape measure*
just drop your pants and get it over with *grins*
seriously guys, you both obviously know more about electrics than about 99% of the forum, so perhaps creative discussion would be more appropriate for 2 knowledgeable people?
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 12:02
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| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 21:43 |
Telecommunications Engineering Student
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Pffft
A partial short
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Location:
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July 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 12:37
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| THE WITZL wrote on Thu, 14 August 2003 13:43 |
cool1. Shut your mouth before you blab about what i do or don't know.
I am aware of your background, perhaps you should become aware of mine before rattling off again.
Yes of course i am aware of the discharge properties, chemical makeup, physical makeup and physical properties of most common capacitors..... what i was trying to explain is that there is a limitation in these given circuits, and its not possible to exceed these limitations due to the nature of the circuitry.
When i said i never have seen a capacitor discharge irregularly, i meant in a given circuit. Of course in varying conditions it will! I kinda explained that point badly
FYI - Telecommunications Engineering Student, not just a Jaycar employee (its just a job)
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well i invented electricity!....... checkmate
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Toymods Social Secretary
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 12:39
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this is not about measuring the technical ability of two people (myself and cool1), i dont aim to compete. I strive to obtain the most informed and correct answer to a theory/problem/question.
Thus in this case i offered my opinion and experience with the afforementioned topic, and argued a level of realism to some points that some people had made (engineers call this the "Crap Meter").
And cool1. im not even playing your game mate.
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I supported Toymods
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 13:12
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hehe you wouldnt dare play my game! My game hurts
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
June 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 13:53
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but i dont understand why electric fences need to be current limited ........
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Home wiring help
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Thu, 14 August 2003 23:43
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Back on topic.
White to L and Black to N worked. Shoved the Red bundle into a BP connector.
Two bathroom lights down, three ceiling lights to go!
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Toymods Social Secretary
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Re: Home wiring help
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Fri, 15 August 2003 01:00
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i still agree with Mos Nark - get a flipping multimeter! $12 at jaycar in fyshwick!
P.S. I found the Jaycar in fyshwick on my way to the snow last year without any knowledge of where in Fyshwick it actually was!
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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 Re: Home wiring help
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Fri, 15 August 2003 01:08
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hehe Yes, that was the plan...
Will a $12 mm survive reading mains voltages and aperages?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Home wiring help
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Fri, 15 August 2003 01:11
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for the most part yes. Although i would personally splash out $15-25 for something a little sturdier and nicer, seeing as though you don't have one already!
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Home wiring help
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Tue, 26 August 2003 15:08
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heh heh, cheapie MM's melt real quick if you have them on DC when you check 240AC (i watched my dad do that years ago)
FLASH!!! "where'd the MM go??"
spend a few bucks and get one with a decent rating.. you'll use it for life anyways...
as for shocks, after melting flesh with 240AC, gettin zapped by jaycar HEI'd coil, electric fences, Tasers and 12V battery, i gotta say the 240 was the worst experience i've had. i still have dead flesh on my fingers and still have the pliers with melted ends 
coil sparks are high enough voltage to kill you but are only a tingle really... 12V car battery?? you can touch jumper leads together to see if they are hooked up.. and holding each one doesn't usualy do much...
but you wanna touch 240V wies to see if they are connected???
yayy fizzle fizzle (or that guy at uni who touched 3 phase... ouch)
Cya, Stewart
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