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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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 Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 01:12
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Hey guys,
This is a question thats been bugging me for a while. I don't want a little war about which ECU is better than the others.
I'm curious as to whether an aftermarket ECU can provide as good a drivability as a factory one, when properly tuned of course?
This is something that I've been wanting to know for ages. My attention was sparked recently by someone saying that a Delco has better drivability than an Autronic. Surely something designed as far back as the Delco would have been surpassed by now?
I'd appreciate anyone able to answer this question or even people who have had good and bad experiences in terms of drivability and fuel economy using an aftermarket ECU.
Thanks,
Nathan
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 01:55
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well, no war to be started but 
it comes down to a few things.
what inputs the ECU has,
what algorithms it uses,
what enrichments ae available,
what it's accuracy is (in terms of injector pulsewidth, not rpm resolution)
when you think of the early toyota injection, it was analog, using AFM rpm and temp for inputs. no closed loop etc...
the DELCO is actually a pretty advanced unit, even tho it was made years ago. get in contact with Richard Wakeling for info, he is by all reports excellent with that ECU.
driveability is the ECU's ability to respond to transient events.
economy is based on the tuning, and the ability to run closed loop at cruise, but mostly good tuning in the acceleration part of the map.
for drivability and ease of use, i think you need.
a)priming pulse and afterstart enrichment (so it doesn't keep stalling when you turn the key)
b) warmup enrichment, so you don't have to wait 5 mins for it to warm up.
c) acceleration enrichment and deceleration cut, so you don't have hesitation, and you don't have backfires (or blow mufflers)
d)you want correction for intake air temp, since we have vastly different temps here, but air pressure correction is not as much of an issue (but a correction on startup would be nice. that way if you say.. drive to the snow, you can stop when you start getting to higher alt, and it readjusts the mapping)
for economy (in both cruise and accelerating) i think you need,
a) an 'intelligent table' where the injector pulsewidth is interpolated for all rpm vs MAP or AFM, rather than a step function.
b) good pulsewidth resolution for accurate fuelling (maybe 0.1ms is good, since minimum opening time is in the order of 1-2ms, and max opening at 80% duty cycle @8000rpm is 12ms)
c) closed loop feedback for stoich mixture at cruising (and be able to adjust how much and under what conditions closed loop occurs)
d) good tuning.
e) really good tuning 
stock systems work for stock motors, but i think a lot of the issues such as poor driveability and poor economy come from either too radical, or improper engine design. for example 300+ deg cams don't work so well at 'around town revs'....
another thing is ECU processor and bus speed. the Motecs run at around 32MHZ processor (not sure on bus), but the Megasquirt is only 8MHZ processor and bus, but has only 15-20% CPU loading. older ECU's run at even lower speeds, and iirc older stock putas run at 1MHZ or less...
in closing (sorry for such a long post) you want a seamless table of fuel mapping (not 'cruise' and 'power' maps), you want various enrichments to counter adverse temps (both coolant and air), you want accel and decel features, you want closed loop (but even that is not necessary with good tuning), and also datalogging is great...
all of this is available with the Megasquirt (since it was designed to take advantage and build upon current systems)
oh, and MOST of all, you want good tuning software. nothing so frustrating as crappy software. check out Megatune 2.15 on the Megasquirt yahoo site, for a good example of easy to use software
Cya, Stewart
[Updated on: Mon, 06 October 2003 01:58]
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Location:
Brisbane, QLD
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 08:41
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are there any ECU's that hold seperate maps?
Say one for "i'm gonna really stick it to that riced up rex" and another for "mum wants me to take her to the shops again, and i dont feel like an earbashing over my driving skillz0r"?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 09:09
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| Cyber-punk wrote on Mon, 06 October 2003 18:41 |
are there any ECU's that hold seperate maps?
Say one for "i'm gonna really stick it to that riced up rex" and another for "mum wants me to take her to the shops again, and i dont feel like an earbashing over my driving skillz0r"?
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it's funny that ppl always ask for this....
a motor ingests a certian amount of air at a given throttle and rpm, and a certain amount of fuel and spark is needed.
while it's possible to have one map which has best power (ie the correct amount of advance and fuel for the motor) and one which has more economy (less advance, closer to stoich mixtures) but there is really no need.... just tune for best power at say.. above 1/4 throttle, with better economy at less than this throttle, and then use less right foot for economy
i guess it comes down to:
will you ever want best economy at WOT
will you ever want best power at 1/4 throttle....
a 'good tune' (tm) will give you the best of both worlds....
what do other ppl think??
Cya,, Stewart
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Location:
Toowoomba
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 10:11
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Stewart
Thanks for the above info - that puts it in simple terms for us to understand.
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Location:
Lismore, NSW
Registered:
February 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 10:24
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Cyber Punk, the wolf3d has inbuilt memory for a MAP (race map just say) and a cartridge which you can remove replace etc which can have a (granny map on it etc). No arguments but I have been using wolf in my past few cars and quite happy but it boils down to budget and what feature's you want etc.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 12:12
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i thought autronic had a base map to get the car started...(?) in which case if you were to use that to drive around with (which you could do) then it would be in a fairly poor state of tune, vs a delco which you have to dyno tune to get it to run.
i'd say 6 of one, half a dozen of the other. they're both great systems and a marvel of aussie engineering, so when they're both properly dyno tuned what would it matter? it should ALMOST have the same driveability as a std comp, almost because an AFM does wonders for partial throttle readings, and most people ditch it in favour of a MAP based system.
you hear about people whinging all the time about a microtech running rich and rough when the fact is the person fitted it themselves with the base map and was too tight to spend another cupla hundred dyno tuning it for the best results.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 12:41
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Thanks for the response guys. Keep them coming.
On the subject of the Microtech, how would it compare to say a Gen3 1GGTE ECU? When properly tuned (which by reading this is the make or break factor) would it be able to offer the same drivability etc.?
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 12:46
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autronic has a bas emap but doenst suit anything
the only time u should need to change maps is when u change fuel octane rating
a good tuner should be able to tune it lean so u dont use too much ule on cruise
and rich when it needs it
y have a lean map and someone pulls up beside u
what u gonna do say sorry i have a lean map in my ecu and i cant drag u
yr engine should be tuned perfect
thats the only map u need
in my old turbo car i had 1 map but i ran 10psi or 26 psi
and i could go from 10 to 26 by flick of a switch
dont waste time changing maps it will only harm yr engine
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 12:48
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Sideshow,
Surely you've had plenty of experience with aftermarket ECU's, have any come close or matched the seamless nature of a factory ECU?
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Location:
sydney
Registered:
March 2003
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Location:
Rosanna, Melb
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 14:13
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I agree that the driveability of an aftermarket system depends primarily on the tuning put into it. I've just fitted a V4 Wolf and am amazed at the amount of parameters you can change.
for example, you can just go fully manual air bypass valve for idle, or have a simple calibration table so it gets more air as it warms up, or even have it track a certain RPM dependant on engine temperature, air-con etc..., with different tracking rates dependant on current engine speed.
No doubt all other decent ECUs have similar options.
So if you could be bothered tweaking all these values over all operating conditions I have no doubt you could get as good as factory idle all the time. It just depends if you can be bothered doing it, or can afford to pay someone to do it.
Hen
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 23:07
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it all comes down to tuning,
you could have a motec on your car and if the tuner has no idea it will be a pig to drive,
Dale
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 23:22
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| sideshow wrote on Mon, 06 October 2003 22:53 |
toyota spend thousands of dollars and time perfetcing the mixtures manifolds engine effieciency and the ecu to suit
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that is so true it's not funny.
toyota spend THOUSANDS if not tens of thousands on perfecting these ECUs and they are perfect for a std car, and modifiying the std ecu puts your brains up against a team of toyta engineers.
however, if you're not using the engine in std form then after a cupla light mods you will need an aftermarket computer, so why not go for it now instead of later? i know up front it's a bigger cost but it'll be shiloads easier in the longrun, esp. if it's dyno tuned after every major change (ie lumpier cams, bigger turbo, etc).
there are a big number of computers out there, and that Wolf V4 is great value for money, as is Autronic and the Delco system. Even those new LTX8's are a good buy now, light years ahead of the old Digi 1-2.
just find someone who knows what they're doing to fit and/or tune it and comes recommended.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 23:24
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With a decent ECU (e.g. Motec) it IS possible to attain an excellent running engine - but many times this is not the case, as people just don't put the effort into tuning/setup. For example, on fuel economy, many ECU's have a basic narrow band lambda function, where at below X load, they will attempt to chase 14.7:1. However, even the 'old' Delco can be set up with a lean cruise function, whereby leaner mixtures can be chased while cruising, which can make a surprising improvement to economy. BUT - as an example, wide band lambda is a ~$1000 option on Motec, f'r instance... In the coming weeks I will be buying a Motec and doing some experimenting with various things, the balance of power, economy and emmisions is something I'm definately interested in. If you're nice I might let you know how it goes 
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Mon, 06 October 2003 23:27
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| mrshin wrote on Tue, 07 October 2003 09:24 |
With a decent ECU (e.g. Motec) If you're nice I might let you know how it goes
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if you would that'd be great man.
i haven't dealt much with MoTeC and i would love to hear of the tunability smarts and probs with it. 
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 01:09
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If its a stock engine in a stock car, leave the stock computer.
In my opinion if your going to spend a heap of money putting an engine in another car its the best time to change the computer (while the engine is out of the car).
As soon as little things change (like even air filters getting dirty) the car won't be running standard and will get less power/economy.
As for drivability with 'aftermarket' computers (Delco I wouldn't class as aftermarket as they're off holdens. Where as Haltek and Microtech aren't standard on any cars - are they??). My car has been 'properly tuned', I paid the money for it and now I get the results. The power delivery is smooth, no matter what % of throttle, and my economy is as good, if not better than the standard car my engine was from. When I get something changed, even an extra muffler put on, I'll go back and get it re-tuned. I know its anal.
As for having 2 states of tune, thats silly. There is a point where everything is right, timing/fuel/air, where everything burns and nothing is left - stoich. At this point everything on the engine works better and longer. The sparkplugs don't get clogged, the engine runs cooler, the exhaust has less emissions, the pistons are saved from no knocking. I passed my emissions test with the car on its 'power tune'.
I'm putting a 'Valet' switch in my car, it does nothing to the tune, but brings the rev limiter down to 3,500rpm.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 02:57
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Does anyone have experience with the Delco and aftermarket ones? I mean, specs wise, how do they rate to say an Autronic or Mircotech or whatever in terms of mapping etc.?
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 05:19
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My suggestion is to do what I've always done, keep up to date with downloading tuning software for the major ones, and play with the software, I figure it's the best way to learn about all the functions without spending any money 
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 05:24
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Already begun mate 
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Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 05:49
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Just a bit of feedback for you on the aftermarket ECU's
I have a microtech MTX8 on my 4AGTE, the car was running in turbo form for a bit over a year with the factory ZE computer no dramas, and about 2 or 3 years before that still supercharged.
Chasing a bit more power meant I had to change (I had reached the standard ZE injector limit). The MTX8 I fitted runs fine, better throttle response than the factory computer setup (probably to do with removal of the AFM or something). My main concern with ditching the factory setup was that I would have poor cold start and driveability (in comparison to factory setup). This so far has not been the case at all.
I paid to have my computer tuned up by a professional (well worth it), and it runs great in all conditions I have experienced so far. In Canberra we get well below zero degrees in winter (hence my cold start worries). The car has started first go every time, and idles perfectly straight away, even well below zero.
Fuel economy when driven sensibly around town and on the highway is as good as the factory setup was getting too. The only thing I would have liked is some more auxillary outputs. But for the price of these things (and I had mine which I took off a damaged car) I am very happy with it.
Like people have mentioned above, its a hell of a lot to do with the tuning. The car that had my computer on it previously was set up very poorly (both the wiring and the tuning), it would hunt at idle (the revs would just go up and down and never settle), and it didn't rev through the RPM range all that cleanly. On my car now and tuned properly its sweet. Most people I have seen that whinge about various brands of computers have either had someone not tune it properly or as mentioned earlier are still running the base map the computer came with.
Shane.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Northern Beaches
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 07:41
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onejayzed what makes the ltx8 light years ahead of the digi's?
ive got a digi 1 doing fuel and ignition on my 4age and im going turbo soon... just wondering if I should be upgrading the computer too or would the digi run it fine as they have been run on 4agze and gte's before?
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I supported Toymods
Banned User
Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 07:49
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mrshin, what motec you getting?
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Location:
in a box
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 09:25
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well i did my research on ecu a couple months back and from what ive heard told seen,
haltech is one of the best bang for buck u can get atm, yes u can go mt8 but tunining and data loging ...
i will b installing a haltech f10 on to my 3tgte and as far as that works its the perfect partner for what il b plaining 2 do.
best bet to work out what u want from the car, then decied on ecu.
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Tue, 07 October 2003 11:07
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i haven't had a lot PERSONALLY to do with microtech - or any computer for that matter - as i'm a recent convert from carbs and points and those funny sounding V engine thingos...but i am doing my homework.
Rotomotion were telling me that all Microtechs are Laptop programmable now, which means changes to them on the dyno are much easier and more precise apparently.
talk to your local microtech dealer dude as to whether to swap them or not, it might be fine as it is.
after all the Digi1 is fuel AND ignition - in which case you can put that extra money towards a bigger turbo!!!!
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 00:07
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| bootheman wrote on Tue, 07 October 2003 19:25 |
well i did my research on ecu a couple months back and from what ive heard told seen,
haltech is one of the best bang for buck u can get atm, yes u can go mt8 but tunining and data loging ...
i will b installing a haltech f10 on to my 3tgte and as far as that works its the perfect partner for what il b plaining 2 do.
best bet to work out what u want from the car, then decied on ecu.
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if you did your reaserch a few months back you would know that a MT8 is a old out dated ecu, and i also take it you havent seen the data logging on a LT series, it leaves the haltec for dead! tuning well there are exaclty the same rpm points and nearlly identical load points on a E6k, the F10 is a fuel only ecu which is the same price as a microtech fuel and ignition ecu, the microtech fuel only is around $300 cheaper and has exactly the same tuning as a f10,
Ribbo,
the Digi will work fine, i have tuned a starion with a digi fuel and ignition on it, it works fine, sure you may get better economy and better drivability but if you already have it use it!
Dale
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Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 00:56
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I've driven a few cars with Haltech's fitted and if tuned nicely, they are just as drivable as a factory ECU. A friend fitted an E6K to his GT4 and within 1/2 an hour of starting the tuning, it was driving better than it was with the factory unit (this was being tuned by an expert).
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Location:
Cabramatta, NSW
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 02:00
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| HKSPete wrote on Tue, 07 October 2003 11:09 |
I'm putting a 'Valet' switch in my car, it does nothing to the tune, but brings the rev limiter down to 3,500rpm.
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That's MAD!! I want an aftermarket ECU now! 
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Location:
Tasmania
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 03:21
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I went in a friends 808 with a 13B turbo, and it had a Microtech Digi 1, and it flew. It also had good economy as it was used as an everyday driver. It did spend a bit of time on the dyno, but it was well worth it!!! Spend the extra few dollars, and even a cheap ECU will work well.
Another friend has a Datto 1600 with a Z18ET (1.8 litre, single cam, 8 plug turbo). It ran an old Microtech D5 and went quite poorly. It was then sent to a dyno and it went a 1000 times better. Don't cut the corners, and you will be pleased with the results!
Cheers,
Justin 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 03:26
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in keepign with the friends anecdotes....
Gareth, in Vic, has had a Megasquirt on his XF falcon for about 6000kms. cold start, fast idle and driveability are all better than stock, as is power and economy (since there is now no AFM, and runs closed loop)
he has only tuned by hand and from datalogging, but is much better than the stock puta (the EECIV or something)...
the MS is a very simple puta ebut it does the job, and with patience and attention to detail, tuning is very easy (especially with full datalogging and real time programming, ,ADN fantastic softeware)... which makes it ten times faster
actually, have a look at the megatune 2.15 software, then go and ask your aftermarket ECU supplier why their software is not as good
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Aftermarket ECU's vs Drivability
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Wed, 08 October 2003 03:37
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thats exactly right, there is no substutate for tuning time.
i tuned a rx7 last night, made 198rwhp, stock s5 motor 6psi boost, 2.5" exhaust and a MTX8 on it, you should have seen it when it arrived, wouldnt idle, drove like a pig etc, had the wrong type of rev limit set and stupid things like that...
i cant believe some people will put the names to cars that drive like this, i spent 2 hours total on the dyno working on the light loads at different speeds and the full power stuff the car drives 400 times better and the owner is wrapt,
i take more pride in making the car drive properly and making the owner happy than the total power output, sure i could have got over 200rwhp out of it but there is no point cause he is already happy,
Dale
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