| Author | Topic |
|---|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 02:08
|
 |
Hi All,
does anyone have a broken, or unwanted, 4AGZE piston that i could have??
i'm really interested to do some analysis on one to dispel some myths about them, and also get some insight as to what they are really made of.
plan is to:
cut it in half, see what the cross section thicknesses are,
polish and macro etch to see grain size (if it truly is forged, you will see the grains 'flow' around the piston)
dig some trenches with an FIB (focussed ion beam miller) to see the structure and thickness of the ceramic coating,
do some chemical analysis, see what is in the alloy and what ceramic they use for the coating (could do XRD for this too)
do some microhardness testing to see what the hardness is and variation throughout the piston.
just your basic investigation 
so, any takers?? the process would be destructive, so you would only get it back in pieces... but the information could be of benefit to all.
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 02:37
|
|
oops....
could a moderator please move this to the "Parts Wanted" section?
thanks
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 04:26
|
|
Stewart, i'll copy this across to parts wanted as well as leaving it here. After all this is also a technical thing so its worthy of remaining in this section.
P.S. Stewart is in Sydney 
If possible to those who supply the piston, if information on what car (model, year, series) the motor came from originally, head number (casting AND id number), and any other info that would identify exactly what model 4A-GZE the piston came from.
Myself, i would like to see all of the following analysed:
# 8.0:1 piston from the AW11
# 8.9:1 piston from MAP AE92/AE101 GZE
# 8.9:1 piston from late MAP AE101 GZE (Below)
# 13101-16131-01 PISTON SUB-ASSY, W/PIN 01.06.1991-01.05.1995 4AGZE..AE101;STD,MARK 1
# 13101-16131-02 PISTON SUB-ASSY, W/PIN 01.06.1991-01.05.1995 4AGZE..AE101;STD,MARK 2
# 13101-16131-03 PISTON SUB-ASSY, W/PIN 01.06.1991-01.05.1995 4AGZE..AE101;STD,MARK 3
[Updated on: Thu, 09 October 2003 04:27]
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 04:29
|
|
sorry.. dont know how to copy 
Just post again in parts wanted dude
|
|
|
Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 06:05
|
|
|
Stuart you should have said something the other day, ive got heaps of odd pistons laying around, theres probhably a gze in there somewhere?
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 06:53
|
|
Hiya Michael,
well, i didn't think of it until this whole 4AGZE forged pistons hooha broke out  figured i could be the one to shed a bit more light on the subject (with all the toys at my disposal)
if you want anything analysed, drop me a line
i just need to find a suitable aluminium grain boundary etchant that DOESN'T invlove Hydroflouric acid!!!  /shudder
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 08:44
|
|
|
ok you lost me after "find a suitable" LOL but sounds explosive and that always = fun
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 09:01
|
|
|
OOOOOOOH YEAHHHHHHHHHH, I'm subscribing to this topic! What do you do for a crust Stewart?
|
|
|
Location:
Canberra
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 09:20
|
|
I'm really keen to see the results of this test. You will make GZE speculation history with this one! 
|
|
|
Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 09:55
|
|
Ok, thanks to BIG WORM's idea, there is a little donation run going on here. Both Bigworm and myself are donating $20 towards the cost of buying a brand new late model GZE 8.9:1 piston from Toyota.
Total cost is $80, so we need a further $40.
FeralMR2 is also donating a busted 8.0:1 piston to the cause
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 12:08
|
|
HydroFlouric acid, or HF
it is really nasty stuff. it is absorbed thru your skin, lungs, fingernails, whatever it touches.
it gets inside you and then strats disrupting your cellular activity. it is not consumed by this process, so unless stopped, it continues to stops your cell acticity until you die.
if you spilt maybe 10 mls onto your clothes, you are fucked.
oh, and it's a very common acid to use to etch aluminium
| clintgodde wrote on Thu, 09 October 2003 19:01 |
OOOOOOOH YEAHHHHHHHHHH, I'm subscribing to this topic! What do you do for a crust Stewart?
|
umm, finishing PhD in Metallurgy, doing Post-Doc research work into jet turbine blade coatings.
i seem to have specialised in electron microscopy analysis (can use SEM, TEM, FIB, EPMA etc) and also specialise in high temperature oxidation...
wanna give me a job??
Cya, Stewart
ps, before you guys start actually buying pistons, i will have a practice go on some i have lying around.... i would prefer to use pistons that are already stuffed.. cheaper for everyone
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Thu, 09 October 2003 15:42
|
|
| oldcorollas wrote on Thu, 09 October 2003 20:08 |
wanna give me a job??
Cya, Stewart
|
Ummm, my back lawn still needs mowing, perhaps while you're at it you could work out what the funny metallic sound is coming from the mower when you lift the front wheels to turn it???
I may have some 4AGZE pistons that are stuffed, not sure of their exact origin though?
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Fri, 10 October 2003 01:45
|
|
if you cant find a broken one, does that say anything about their strength? i'd be interested in the results from this,
oldcorollas, what do you know of thermal spraying/PVD technology? i wanna look into maybeye PVDing a set of pistons with "the gold one" or something, might be able to reduce detonation and other interesting things.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Fri, 10 October 2003 02:38
|
|
| shinybluesteel wrote on Fri, 10 October 2003 11:45 |
if you cant find a broken one, does that say anything about their strength? i'd be interested in the results from this,
oldcorollas, what do you know of thermal spraying/PVD technology? i wanna look into maybeye PVDing a set of pistons with "the gold one" or something, might be able to reduce detonation and other interesting things.
|
well, they seem pretty strong (if used correctly) but i'd like to characterise them a bit, see if they are forged, see what the ceramic coating is like etc..
plasma spraying? physical vapour deposition? well, part of my work is helping develop alloys for plasma spraying onto the turbine blades...
HPC do a Thermal Barrier Coating (TBC) for pistons. it's relatively cheap (like $20 a piston) and it looks like a plasma sprayed ceramic.
http://www.hpcoatings.com.au/pages/piston.htm
btw, i have no affiliation with HPC whatsoever, i just like their stuff
i think it was going to be around $500 to get the pistons, valves and combustion chambers coated, as well as the ports and extractors (HiPerCoat on the latter, not the the Extreme one...)
hmm, what's this 'gold' coating of which you speak? Titanium nitride? (like on drill bits). the main problem is to get the coating to stick to the metal in a heat cycling environment. usually the thinner it is, the better it resists temp cycling, but thinner is less effective. with proper surface preparation (like etching to get some mechanical keying) and maybe a bit of diffusion bonding, the coating should work well..
my instinct would be to go with an alumina coating, as it has high thermal resistance, and will form a good bond with the aluminium (since it is a natural oxidation product). might depend on the coating thickness and the mismatch of thermal expansion coefficients.
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Fri, 10 October 2003 02:57
|
|
|
stew you are such a nerd
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne
Registered:
June 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Fri, 10 October 2003 13:47
|
|
yeah, TiN is the gold one, there are other cool ones too, but this is the moist common and cheapest i think, covered it basically in a unbi subject called "advanced technology" i was a bit worried about thermal mismatch, the lecturer said there were ways around this, like heating it before coating, so it is "shrunk" onto the substrate. covered plasma spraying too, and "detonation gun" thermal spraying, i still cant understand how they can legally have someone use something that is as loud as a spacew shuttle taking off, but it sounds cool anyway.
look forward to reading your findings!
will
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Fri, 10 October 2003 15:11
|
|
for TiN, i'd be more worried about the oxidation resistance. i was recently helping with some work on annealing of nano-composite titanium nitride and silicon nitride structures, to be used for tool bit coatings. even in a reducing atmosphere (oxygen partial pressure around 10^-18), we were still having problems keeping the coating for an hour at temps over 600C. the instability may not have been caused by the impurity oxygen content, but there are still issues there.
LOL, i also did some work at the Caterpiller R&D plant in Peoria, Illinois. they had _very_ large plasma spraying equipment they were testing (for very large engines!!) the plasma jet would have been a few meters long, and the deposition rates were enormous... the noise was unbearable on the outside of the soundproofed room, and the two guys inside with earmuffs were laughing at us, outside, with fingers in our ears ...
iirc TiN has excellent wear resistance properties, coupled with high hardness, strength and low friction, making it ideal for high speed machining.. i think some alloy blocks are either nitrided or Ti-nitrided (like porsche?)
anyhoo, now i'm totally geeking out 
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Sun, 12 October 2003 16:13
|
|
|
Methinks down the track a group of us should get together to test out some 1UZ parts...see what they're really made of
|
|
|
Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 06:11
|
|
|
So anyone else keen to put in towards a new GZE piston? Doesn't have to be $20, if a few guys chucked in $5 we'd be a fair bit closer to getting one.
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 09:29
|
|
 i sent my 8.0:1 piston to the address you gave me today oldcorollas.
it should be there in 3 days.
|
|
|
Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 09:41
|
|
| feral4mr2 wrote on Mon, 13 October 2003 19:29 |
i sent my 8.0:1 piston to the address you gave me today oldcorollas.
it should be there in 3 days.
|
cooool then the fun begins.... so you don't mind it coming back in a few pieces heh heh....
anything in particular you want sectioned? i was initially thinking to cut straight thru the pin holes, and then perpendicular to that... and after that, anywhere else interesting....
Cya, Stewart
|
|
|
Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 09:53
|
|
do what you want to the piston, i cant use it anyways.
i am only interested in your findings..
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 23:19
|
|
|
I've got a busted engine with several knackered pistons in it in the back shed.. PM me if you haven't got a piston yet
|
|
|
Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
|
|
Re: need BROKEN 4AGZE piston for analysis?
|
Mon, 13 October 2003 23:19
|
|
|
In fact I'll even slip you a stuffed conrod if you like to check that out as well
|
|
|
