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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 13:07
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pics of feral4mr2s 8:1 4AGZE pistons, you can see the grain flow from the forging.
Cya, Stewart
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 13:41
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Big round of applause for Stewart!
So anyone else keen to chuck in to buy a new ZE piston for some of the same? C'mon, 10 bucks anyone?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Northern Beaches
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 13:52
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sweet work
yea ill chuck 10 bucks in
let me know how thats happening
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 14:17
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Stewart,
im interested to know, how would you be able to compare and identify a forged piston vs a Hypertuetic piston vs a cast piston?
How would the grains vary?
I don't mean to sound rude etc, im just curious is all 
P.S. you rock dude! 
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 15:06
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tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article
but who will host it??
oh, I WILL!!!!!!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 15:49
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Yep, I'll chuck $20 in an account, and subscribe to this thread too! Post the account details for deposit!
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 22:10
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Well thats almost there!
I think now we have:
# $20 from bigperm
# $20 from me
# $20 from Clintgoooodddeeeee
# $10 from Ribbo
Thats $70!
If everyone is ok with it, we can put the money into my account and i'll order a piston today. I'll get the part numbers that Joel used and compare with those i already have. I'll then personally hand it over to Stewart.
P.S. I think Toymods will be hosting this one. As well as everywhere else!
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 20 October 2003 23:44
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Sure, sendus your account details. BTW I'm gonna send The Man one of the pistons/rods from my busted 101 gze for interests sake too 
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 02:18
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Heya Mr Witzl,
forged you can see in the grain structure, the grain 'flow'. this is from the forging process, where a slug of metal is basically squashed into shape. the grains will curve around the pistons curves and basically follow the directiont hat the metal squished. the grains are also very elongated in areas of high flow (like the skirt).
for cast, there will be a layer of small grains near the edges, then roughly equal sized, regular shaped (equiaxed) grains in the centre of larger cross-sections.
hyper-eutectic pistons are also cast are they not??
hyper and hypo eutectic, means that the composition is either over (hyper) or under (hypo) the eustectic composition. in the case of casting alloys, i think it is referring to the silicon content of the aluminium, but i'll check up on that.. i should be able to see which is which by the microstructure.
the difference is that either side of the eutectic point, there will be a different second phase in the microstructure.
i will have to look up some articles on piston alloys before i blab on more 
LOL, np man, i will try and get some interesting articles with pics and stuff and make up a sort of information pack, with some background on it all...
the main difference between forged and cast (apart form composition, as cast needs more silicon to be able to flow into all the nooks and crannys of the mold), is that the forged piston will have the previously mentioned grain flow... this is effectively 'work-hardening' the aluminium as it forms the piston shape. the elngated grains and the grain flow lines give the piston more strength, because the material has been deformed and there are 'residual stresses' and it is also harder for a crack to propogate thru this work hardened structure.
with a cast piston, it is literally 'as cast' with no work hardening, and no deformation of the grains. this also means it is easier for a crack to grow around the nearly round grains....
anyhoo, thats a bit for now
i'll get some more info from the pistons first.
Cya, Stewart
ps, these pics were taken after grinding to about a 2000 grit finish!! i polished them to 1 micron finish, but the grains were nto as obvious without etching.... and i need to organise access to the hydroflouric acid, so it might be a week or two before i can do that part.
| THE WITZL wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 00:17 |
Stewart,
im interested to know, how would you be able to compare and identify a forged piston vs a Hypertuetic piston vs a cast piston?
How would the grains vary?
I don't mean to sound rude etc, im just curious is all
P.S. you rock dude!
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 03:56
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Stewart, that makes complete sense to me, seriously!
As for the funds for the puchase of a new 4agze piston... i have PM'ed those expressing their want to donate funds.... if by some chance i end up with more money than the cost of the piston i'll give the money to stewart.
Im ordering the sucker today too
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 05:18
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Wow, we should be putting up links to this thread in all the good forums, particularily club4ag, this rewrites the books on 4AGE pistons. I had my fingers crossed that the later ones would be forged & was expecting the earlier ones to be cast, but wow again. Can't wait to see the new one, & mrshin's ae101 bits.
The part number of my pistons is 13103-16131, and they are 0.50mm oversize.
And I'll give you the cash tomorrow.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 05:33
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ordered!
Will be in my hands tomorrow morning, and ill bring the puppy along to the drags for show and tell
Cost $84. Thanks all for the donations.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 10:37
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Can you specifiy which one you ordered please Karl, also size and pin height if posible too?
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 11:49
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erm... ill give piccies tomorrow.
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Tue, 21 October 2003 23:12
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Yeasch... only $84 ey?
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Wed, 22 October 2003 01:36
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Good stuff Stewart!
Just clarifying, only the 8.9:1 pistons are ceramic coated?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Wed, 22 October 2003 06:59
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yes the 8.9:1 comp pistons are ceramic coated.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth, Western Australia
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Wed, 22 October 2003 09:01
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Moneywent into your account today Witzl. Specs please?
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Northern Beaches
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Wed, 22 October 2003 13:12
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I sent $20 into your account a couple days ago too
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Wed, 22 October 2003 13:35
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I had a look at the piston today, & it's exactly the same as the ones I have. Part no. 13103-16131, 0.50mm oversize.
I have a couple of photos of one of mine, I just need to stick it up somewhere.
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Location:
Western Sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Thu, 23 October 2003 02:57
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I can donate the additional $4
Which Toyota dealer did you buy the piston from? All dealers seem to vary on prices. $84 is a pretty good price tho.
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Location:
Tamworth
Registered:
October 2002
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Fri, 24 October 2003 00:08
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Hope the postman brought you a busted piston
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Location:
Newcastle
Registered:
March 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Fri, 24 October 2003 04:20
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IM INTERESTED IN SEEING IF AN AE101 20 VALVE PISTON IS REALLY SEMI FORGED OR WHAT IT IS,
I WILL DONATE $10-20 IF THAT ONE EVER LIFTS OFF.
GOOD WORK MAN.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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I supported Toymods
Location:
melbourne.victoria.austra...
Registered:
June 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Fri, 24 October 2003 11:51
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| mrshin wrote on Fri, 24 October 2003 10:08 |
Hope the postman brought you a busted piston
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certainly did Thanks Mr Shin
wow, i'm surprised it is still in one piece considering the rod is twisted and broken, and it's copped a few hits from the crank...
the dish looks very much like the one in Karls photo, with a few extra dents....
are the dish volumes known, or are they of interest as well?? i just happen to have a burette in my lougneroom
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 27 October 2003 12:03
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so... found anything else out yet?
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Location:
adelaide
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 27 October 2003 12:16
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classy stuff - you can see toymods on the computer screen
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 27 October 2003 13:08
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| mrshin wrote on Mon, 27 October 2003 23:03 |
so... found anything else out yet?
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notta yetta.. haven't been in to uni since last wednesday, but will be lining up some chemicals for maybe next week... i will be cutting up your piston wednesday, and will get some early pics of it.. i kinda have to do the etching all at once, since it is nasty stuff... and have to get the go ahead from the safety kiddies (now it's suddenly in vogue)
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 27 October 2003 21:57
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good - just checking you hadn't fallen down a bottomless pit or anything horrendous like that
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
May 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 11:00
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any further updates on this
im interested
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 11:42
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 this thread created a heated debate on the MR2 Owners forums. 
if there is a OzMR2(username on that forum) that frequents these forums i would like him to epxress his opinion here in this thread.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 12:13
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i would like to see ANYONE debate what has been written here!
In fact i lay down a challenge now. Prove us wrong people... prove us wrong.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 12:22
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i dont know if i can copy and paste the arguement. but this guy is dead certain  that we do not have forged pistons.
i am only presuming that because of his username on that forum he is in OZ.
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Toymods Social Secretary
Location:
Sydney
Registered:
July 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 12:43
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He is obviously illeducated.
Perhaps some re-NEDucation is in order!
Send the link to him directly! That ought to shut him up.
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Location:
Bundaberg, Qld.
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 13:14
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just a quick update,
i've cut thru Mr Shins piston. i didn't get as nice a picture of it.. the grains were harder to see.. but i will put up photos to compare the cross sections of the two types. will do it in a new thread to stop the pics blowing out the size of it.. hmmm or i could make a page for them....
anyways, i'm currently digging trenches in Ferals piston crown with a beam of gallium ions (6600 nanoamps to be precise )to get a pic of the ceramic coating in cross-section. hopefulyl will have that by tomorrow...
i'm having safety issues with etchants, so i'm going to wait until i have all three pistons cut up and ready to go, so i only have to etch once.
it's still happening, just slowly
Cya, Stewart
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Toymods Board Member
I supported Toymods
Location:
Turramurra, Sydney.
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 13:32
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Excellent.
I say the next thing we all chuck in for is a case of cold ones, or a bottle of stuarts preffered poison, to express our gratitude for his time & expertise.
Just out of interest, how much would you charge for these services if you were charging?
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 14:07
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| BigWorm wrote on Tue, 11 November 2003 00:32 |
Excellent.
I say the next thing we all chuck in for is a case of cold ones, or a bottle of stuarts preffered poison, to express our gratitude for his time & expertise.
Just out of interest, how much would you charge for these services if you were charging?
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i think thats going a bit far there it's fun for me as well and gives me a distraction from the thesis i should eb doing heh heh
hmm, well... sectioning and polishing samples usually between $50 and $100 an hour...
Beam time on the FIB? between $200 and $400 an hour, depending on the customer..
has been 2 or 3 hours tonight shhhhhhh
for me it's a chance to work with some different materials, and get some more experience.. as well as satisfying my, and everybody elses, curiosity.. tis enough for me....
Cya, Stewart
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Location:
Montrose, VIC
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1
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Mon, 10 November 2003 22:26
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Well I shall await with baited breath.. ooh, hang on, that's last night's garlic pizza returning to join me again, oops
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