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oldcorollas
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4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 13:07 Go to next message
pics of feral4mr2s 8:1 4AGZE pistons, you can see the grain flow from the forging.

http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/~sford/flowlines1.jpg

http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/~sford/flowlines2.jpg

http://www.materials.unsw.edu.au/~sford/cut2lines.jpg
Cya, Stewart
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BigWorm
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 13:41 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy Very Happy

Big round of applause for Stewart!

So anyone else keen to chuck in to buy a new ZE piston for some of the same? C'mon, 10 bucks anyone?
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Ribbo
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 13:52 Go to previous messageGo to next message
sweet work

yea ill chuck 10 bucks in
let me know how thats happening
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 14:17 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stewart,

im interested to know, how would you be able to compare and identify a forged piston vs a Hypertuetic piston vs a cast piston?

How would the grains vary?

I don't mean to sound rude etc, im just curious is all Smile

P.S. you rock dude! Cool
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ed_ma61
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 15:06 Go to previous messageGo to next message
tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article
tech article

but who will host it??

oh, I WILL!!!!!!
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CLG
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 15:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Yep, I'll chuck $20 in an account, and subscribe to this thread too! Post the account details for deposit!
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 22:10 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Well thats almost there!

I think now we have:
# $20 from bigperm
# $20 from me
# $20 from Clintgoooodddeeeee
# $10 from Ribbo

Thats $70!

If everyone is ok with it, we can put the money into my account and i'll order a piston today. I'll get the part numbers that Joel used and compare with those i already have. I'll then personally hand it over to Stewart.

P.S. I think Toymods will be hosting this one. Very Happy As well as everywhere else!
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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 20 October 2003 23:44 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Sure, sendus your account details. BTW I'm gonna send The Man one of the pistons/rods from my busted 101 gze for interests sake too Evil or Very Mad
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 02:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Heya Mr Witzl,

forged you can see in the grain structure, the grain 'flow'. this is from the forging process, where a slug of metal is basically squashed into shape. the grains will curve around the pistons curves and basically follow the directiont hat the metal squished. the grains are also very elongated in areas of high flow (like the skirt).

for cast, there will be a layer of small grains near the edges, then roughly equal sized, regular shaped (equiaxed) grains in the centre of larger cross-sections.

hyper-eutectic pistons are also cast are they not??

hyper and hypo eutectic, means that the composition is either over (hyper) or under (hypo) the eustectic composition. in the case of casting alloys, i think it is referring to the silicon content of the aluminium, but i'll check up on that.. i should be able to see which is which by the microstructure.

the difference is that either side of the eutectic point, there will be a different second phase in the microstructure.

i will have to look up some articles on piston alloys before i blab on more Wink

LOL, np man, i will try and get some interesting articles with pics and stuff and make up a sort of information pack, with some background on it all...

the main difference between forged and cast (apart form composition, as cast needs more silicon to be able to flow into all the nooks and crannys of the mold), is that the forged piston will have the previously mentioned grain flow... this is effectively 'work-hardening' the aluminium as it forms the piston shape. the elngated grains and the grain flow lines give the piston more strength, because the material has been deformed and there are 'residual stresses' and it is also harder for a crack to propogate thru this work hardened structure.

with a cast piston, it is literally 'as cast' with no work hardening, and no deformation of the grains. this also means it is easier for a crack to grow around the nearly round grains....

anyhoo, thats a bit for now Wink
i'll get some more info from the pistons first.
Cya, Stewart

ps, these pics were taken after grinding to about a 2000 grit finish!! i polished them to 1 micron finish, but the grains were nto as obvious without etching.... and i need to organise access to the hydroflouric acid, so it might be a week or two before i can do that part.





THE WITZL wrote on Tue, 21 October 2003 00:17

Stewart,
im interested to know, how would you be able to compare and identify a forged piston vs a Hypertuetic piston vs a cast piston?
How would the grains vary?
I don't mean to sound rude etc, im just curious is all Smile
P.S. you rock dude! Cool

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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 03:56 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Stewart, that makes complete sense to me, seriously!

As for the funds for the puchase of a new 4agze piston... i have PM'ed those expressing their want to donate funds.... if by some chance i end up with more money than the cost of the piston i'll give the money to stewart.

Im ordering the sucker today too Very Happy
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BigWorm
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 05:18 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Wow, we should be putting up links to this thread in all the good forums, particularily club4ag, this rewrites the books on 4AGE pistons. I had my fingers crossed that the later ones would be forged & was expecting the earlier ones to be cast, but wow again. Can't wait to see the new one, & mrshin's ae101 bits.

The part number of my pistons is 13103-16131, and they are 0.50mm oversize.
And I'll give you the cash tomorrow.
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 05:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
ordered!

Will be in my hands tomorrow morning, and ill bring the puppy along to the drags for show and tell Very Happy

Cost $84. Thanks all for the donations.
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CLG
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 10:37 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Can you specifiy which one you ordered please Karl, also size and pin height if posible too?
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 11:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
erm... ill give piccies tomorrow.
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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Tue, 21 October 2003 23:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Yeasch... only $84 ey?

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Sprinta
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Wed, 22 October 2003 01:36 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Good stuff Stewart!
Just clarifying, only the 8.9:1 pistons are ceramic coated?
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Grega
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Wed, 22 October 2003 06:59 Go to previous messageGo to next message
yes the 8.9:1 comp pistons are ceramic coated.
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CLG
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Wed, 22 October 2003 09:01 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Moneywent into your account today Witzl. Specs please?
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Ribbo
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Wed, 22 October 2003 13:12 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I sent $20 into your account a couple days ago too
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BigWorm
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Wed, 22 October 2003 13:35 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I had a look at the piston today, & it's exactly the same as the ones I have. Part no. 13103-16131, 0.50mm oversize.
I have a couple of photos of one of mine, I just need to stick it up somewhere.
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whiteGZE
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Thu, 23 October 2003 02:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
I can donate the additional $4 Smile

Which Toyota dealer did you buy the piston from? All dealers seem to vary on prices. $84 is a pretty good price tho.

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Phrozen_Death
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Thu, 23 October 2003 03:25 Go to previous messageGo to next message
shit i remember when i used to do all this shit when i done engineering science bloody years ago, we actually did what Stuart is doing now, it was very interesting to see how different manufacturers pistons and Connie's varied in grain flow and structure in both forged and cast

anyway well done Stuart keep up the good work
and if you want ill hunt around and see if i have an old 3S piston and rod if you want it

nathan

[Updated on: Thu, 23 October 2003 03:28]

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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Fri, 24 October 2003 00:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Hope the postman brought you a busted piston Evil or Very Mad
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neat 20valve
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Fri, 24 October 2003 04:20 Go to previous messageGo to next message
IM INTERESTED IN SEEING IF AN AE101 20 VALVE PISTON IS REALLY SEMI FORGED OR WHAT IT IS,
I WILL DONATE $10-20 IF THAT ONE EVER LIFTS OFF.

GOOD WORK MAN.
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Fri, 24 October 2003 10:33 Go to previous messageGo to next message
hmmmm.... piston.

Pleas note the intensive experiments to prove the forged characteristics of the GZE piston....

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0RAAHA6AUdMq!9fxjUuA0iRLvqHPxxwOJU71IIIX!pCGY99p3QOYOVvNaBnVe8YXXXKM4Lytk0UO7zZ3sxbnaz*4Lpkz*z1n0ui20RKKmUXE/gze%20piston.jpg?dc=4675444244080666344

http://groups.msn.com/_Secure/0PQDUAncSqz01j8USryqYOmDS3dl3VrWwoSKVWsvanOEAs9bGhJfNpz6m8BZnJi3LMVMxruN2uO8vqbyben8!upBrDBl0xZI!/yummy.jpg?dc=4675444244794166990

[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2003 10:40]

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Grega
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Fri, 24 October 2003 11:26 Go to previous messageGo to next message
LMAO still.....you kill me karl...

p.s : where are the details of the taste test?

[Updated on: Fri, 24 October 2003 11:26]

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oldcorollas
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Fri, 24 October 2003 11:51 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrshin wrote on Fri, 24 October 2003 10:08

Hope the postman brought you a busted piston Evil or Very Mad


certainly did Smile Thanks Mr Shin Very Happy
wow, i'm surprised it is still in one piece considering the rod is twisted and broken, and it's copped a few hits from the crank...

the dish looks very much like the one in Karls photo, with a few extra dents....

are the dish volumes known, or are they of interest as well?? i just happen to have a burette in my lougneroom Cool

Cya, Stewart
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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 27 October 2003 12:03 Go to previous messageGo to next message
so... found anything else out yet?
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peewee
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 27 October 2003 12:16 Go to previous messageGo to next message
classy stuff - you can see toymods on the computer screen
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 27 October 2003 13:08 Go to previous messageGo to next message
mrshin wrote on Mon, 27 October 2003 23:03

so... found anything else out yet?


notta yetta.. haven't been in to uni since last wednesday, but will be lining up some chemicals for maybe next week... i will be cutting up your piston wednesday, and will get some early pics of it.. i kinda have to do the etching all at once, since it is nasty stuff... and have to get the go ahead from the safety kiddies (now it's suddenly in vogue)
Cya, Stewart
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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 27 October 2003 21:57 Go to previous messageGo to next message
good - just checking you hadn't fallen down a bottomless pit or anything horrendous like that Cool
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takai
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 11:00 Go to previous messageGo to next message
any further updates on this
im interested
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feral4mr2
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 11:42 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Freak this thread created a heated debate on the MR2 Owners forums. Shocked
if there is a OzMR2(username on that forum) that frequents these forums i would like him to epxress his opinion here in this thread.

Razz
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 12:13 Go to previous messageGo to next message
i would like to see ANYONE debate what has been written here!

In fact i lay down a challenge now. Prove us wrong people... prove us wrong.
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feral4mr2
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 12:22 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Freak i dont know if i can copy and paste the arguement. but this guy is dead certain Rolling Eyes that we do not have forged pistons.


i am only presuming that because of his username on that forum he is in OZ.
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THE WITZL
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 12:43 Go to previous messageGo to next message
He is obviously illeducated.
Perhaps some re-NEDucation is in order!

Send the link to him directly! That ought to shut him up.
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feral4mr2
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 12:49 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Freak the link was already posted on the thread. so he should of already seen and know it is on here.

plus he has no contact details on his profile.

[Updated on: Mon, 10 November 2003 12:52]

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oldcorollas
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 13:14 Go to previous messageGo to next message
just a quick update,

i've cut thru Mr Shins piston. i didn't get as nice a picture of it.. the grains were harder to see.. but i will put up photos to compare the cross sections of the two types. will do it in a new thread to stop the pics blowing out the size of it.. hmmm or i could make a page for them....

anyways, i'm currently digging trenches in Ferals piston crown with a beam of gallium ions (6600 nanoamps to be precise Wink )to get a pic of the ceramic coating in cross-section. hopefulyl will have that by tomorrow...

i'm having safety issues with etchants, so i'm going to wait until i have all three pistons cut up and ready to go, so i only have to etch once.

it's still happening, just slowly Wink

Cya, Stewart
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 13:32 Go to previous messageGo to next message
Excellent. Very Happy

I say the next thing we all chuck in for is a case of cold ones, or a bottle of stuarts preffered poison, to express our gratitude for his time & expertise.

Just out of interest, how much would you charge for these services if you were charging? Razz
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oldcorollas
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 14:07 Go to previous messageGo to next message
BigWorm wrote on Tue, 11 November 2003 00:32

Excellent. Very Happy
I say the next thing we all chuck in for is a case of cold ones, or a bottle of stuarts preffered poison, to express our gratitude for his time & expertise.
Just out of interest, how much would you charge for these services if you were charging? Razz


i think thats going a bit far there Wink it's fun for me as well Very Happy and gives me a distraction from the thesis i should eb doing Razz heh heh

hmm, well... sectioning and polishing samples usually between $50 and $100 an hour...

Beam time on the FIB? between $200 and $400 an hour, depending on the customer..

has been 2 or 3 hours tonight Wink shhhhhhh

for me it's a chance to work with some different materials, and get some more experience.. as well as satisfying my, and everybody elses, curiosity.. tis enough for me....

Cya, Stewart
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mrshin
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Re: 4AGZE broken piston analysis part 1 Mon, 10 November 2003 22:26 Go to previous message
Well I shall await with baited breath.. ooh, hang on, that's last night's garlic pizza returning to join me again, oops Evil or Very Mad
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