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Location:
sydney
Registered:
July 2003
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 Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Wed, 03 December 2003 07:53
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i got a siler top 20 valve but i wanna make VVT kick in earlier, i know EMS has the VTEC/VVT control but does wolf 3D adn if so how much for it. if anyone knows another after market ECU that will make VVT kick in earlier at a affordable price preferibly less then EMS thanks
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Wed, 03 December 2003 21:51
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i have setup microtechs to run the VVT no problems at all, you can control the switch on where ever you want to,
Let me know if you want more info.
Dale
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Location:
Melbourne
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Wed, 03 December 2003 21:53
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i know numerous people have set up the 20v on a wolf 3d - one was even a turbo
T
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Wed, 03 December 2003 22:08
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go microtech 
value for money and lots of local knowledge
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 03:01
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microtech is also one of the only computers on the market that will interface will all the factory sensors - making it a "plug and play" system.
i chose a delco because they have a lot of local product knowledge (it's a holden comp) and infinite tuning ability, but it wasn't exactly a plug in and tune affair, a few things needed modification for it to all read properly.
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 03:09
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Talk to some local tuners, get their impressions of different computers. A lot of it will come down to how good the tune is, you can have what ever computer you want but if the tune sux it's not gona be doin you much good.
Not a fan of EMS tho 
but everyone has their own choices.
I'd also be speaking to a tuner about making the vvt "kick" in earlier... might not be such a good idea. I know with honda's moving it too early in the rev range can reduce power. You'd be better off raising the rev limiter slightly
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 03:46
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AFAIK, no aftermarket stand alone ECU can fully control VVT, so you will have to run both stock ecu and aftermarket.
That said, I don't know anymore about it
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 04:15
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plenty of 20v's running around on aftermarket only... not piggy back.
yeah it can control it, but not in the way that toyota intended..
still works tho.
Speak to 10sec_rx7 he's tuned a few.
Been in an 8e82 silver top with microtech and an ep71 starlet with a black top and ems.... both ran fine 
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 04:20
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AFAIK, no aftermarket stand alone ECU can fully control VVT, so you will have to run both stock ecu and aftermarket.
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Hmm... EMS Stinger, Microtech MT's and LT's, Autronic SMC SM2, Motech... Can all run it. Motech are the only ones that can run the Beams which has incremental advancement of the cams.
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microtech is also one of the only computers on the market that will interface will all the factory sensors - making it a "plug and play" system.
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EMS Stinger also do now...
Personally, I would buy an EMS or Mircotech cause they so user friendly now, and Microtech still have one of the best after sales support out of any of the low end stuff...
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 04:24
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| Johnny wrote on Thu, 04 December 2003 12:20 |
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AFAIK, no aftermarket stand alone ECU can fully control VVT, so you will have to run both stock ecu and aftermarket.
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Hmm... EMS Stinger, Microtech MT's and LT's, Autronic SMC SM2, Motech... Can all run it. Motech are the only ones that can run the Beams which has incremental advancement of the cams.
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Ummm, you missed the word FULLY
From what I have been told, and what I have read, no computer (bar factory ones) can run VVT to the full extent.
I know Autronic can't (unless its changed in the last 4 weeks).
They can turn it on, or off, but can't control it
They all say to use the standard ecu for the VVT controlling, and use the aftermarket to turn it on off, and to control everything else
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 05:21
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Ah, that makes more sense
In that case, yeah, most aftermarket can control it on/off
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 05:25
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From what i know the older 20v's just switch over, but the new ones will very the timing.
all the 20v's i have done they are setup like the honda system where is just switches over,
you dont want to lower the switch over trust me you will loose any bottom end power you have, anything below 3000rpm and it wont run very well at all and even 3500 it is a little dicey, i generally set them at about 4200rpm which is where the torque drops off.
I also have a special on installed microtech for december, $1500 installed and tuned plus $90 per hour dyno hire.
Dale
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 05:37
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get the microtech 
keep in mind they are goin for about $1100 for the ltx-8 alone
so $400 to install/tune it plus the dyno hire sounds pretty good.
You get rid of the damn AFM too
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Location:
Perth
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 05:50
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| Johnny wrote on Thu, 04 December 2003 15:20 |
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microtech is also one of the only computers on the market that will interface will all the factory sensors - making it a "plug and play" system.
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EMS Stinger also do now...
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note the ONE OF in bold.
i was aware of the EMS stinger, but that wasn't the subject.
then again, you may have been politely informing us all, but it didn't read that way.
smileys, man - sssmmmmiiiiilllleeeyyyyysssss!!!!! 
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Thu, 04 December 2003 09:51
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the last 20v i tuned made 92kw at the wheels with a microtech, very very restrictave exhaust and headers (2 1/4 press bent 4-2-1 headers), the power was dropping off really bad over 6000rpm where the 20v should be making more power,
just got back from the dyno now, tuned a 4AGZE, made 102kw with another bad exhaust, it was a 2in mandral bent and really holding it back, after driving the car last night with no exhaust i can tell there is another 20 or so KW hiding there.
Microtech are the best value for money, nice to install and quick to tune well, most of the dynos take between 1 hour and 2.5 hours, the 4agze took 1 hour but the 20v's tend to take around 2 hours as they are a little tricky to get the maps spot on and make the power. the bloke who owns the dyno i use has had a wolf on the rollers for 4-5 hours and it still is no where near right.. and he knows what he is doing so there is $500+ just in dyno time.
Dale
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Location:
Sydney, OZ
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Fri, 05 December 2003 04:29
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They all say to use the standard ecu for the VVT controlling, and use the aftermarket to turn it on off, and to control everything else
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Obviously you've never wired an Multimeter, light, etc to see what the VVTi is doing? Early types, they're and on/off system, advancing the cams or Cams in the case of beams engines. Now I do know that the late models Vtti's and Vtti-L and I-vtec's they can't run them yet.... though Motec will have it out soon....
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Australia
Registered:
November 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Fri, 05 December 2003 05:50
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No this was my mistake
I didnt realise that
A) the was a difference between VVT and VVT-i
B) VVT was on/off not variable
and
C) the 20V was only VVT and VVT-i
I have only looked into VVT-i
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Location:
Sydney
Registered:
October 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Tue, 22 June 2004 12:12
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I have a silvertop 20v being run by an EMS stinger, I was told that the stinger can't handle an AFM it is running completely off TPS at the moment which has 10 load points. can I connect the onboard map sensor to the silvertop?
any help would be nice. sorry for hijacking. but i've been informed the stinger isn't suited to the 20valve.
Dom.
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Location:
Kita-Ku, Sapporo, Japan
Registered:
January 2003
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Tue, 22 June 2004 16:42
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oh god, running most motors in alpha-N mode (TPS only) is a pretty suckful way of doing things..
even if you have shitty vacuum, if you set the MAP axis points correctly, then it will be foine...
case in point, alfa 2L, idle MAP was 75kpa (absolute), MAP axis set in 3kpa increments up to 95kpa, runs perfectly.
for those ECU's with fixed 'load points' makes it a bit more tricky, as with a 75kpa MAP leaves you only 3 or 4 load points to tune with
you should be running off the MAP sensor for the load sensing, and using the TPS for accel and decell only...
Dale, what sort of torque are your 20V's making? (flywheel)
Cya, Stewart
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Club Member
Location:
sydney
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Tue, 22 June 2004 23:13
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firstly im biased so this response is one sided
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microtech is also one of the only computers on the market that will interface will all the factory sensors - making it a "plug and play" system.
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uhmm one of the only... dont think so.. there are plenty
the wold3d V4 plus will not only see and run factory sensors it is fully programable to any sensor you want to use. As long as you know the upper and lower voltages its easy to calibrate any sensor to be read by Wolf.
I looked around for some time when i selected my ECU and value for money i couldnt go past the wolfs miriad of features. At around $1200 ( i think thats the retail price?) its hard to beat for what it gives you with wideband O2 , 16mhz/16bit processor, Solenoid and stepper control, 5 aux outputs and 4 aux inputs, 125rpm bands, 6 ignition outputs , trigger voltage control etc etc etc etc
A 20V would be an easy task for the wolf .. i say go for it.. I admit they are a little niggly to set up initally but get it tuned by someone who knows what they are doing and they are awesome... well at least im happy with mine LOL
the one thing that really sold me was rpm designated map switching between TPS and MAF or MAP , great for tuning throttle bodies!, my engine has a pretty smooth idle for the cams im using.
admitedly.. if i had the money i would have got the Motec .. but i cant afford the constant cost of tuning with them let alone the unit prices.
Oh just to add, customer support for the wolf IMHO cant be beat, theres tons of online info ( try and find the same amount for microtech) and the guys at melbourne are really helpfull and prompt when you ask them questions, the beauty is you usually end up talking to one of the software designers so they know exactly what you are on about. The dealer i dealt with is very good for support too, ive also heard the other wolf dealer in sydney is excellent for tuning 4 cylinders ( talk to yellowrolla he has a good association with them on the north shore )
the best advice i can give when deciding which ecu, is to go with what feels good and sensible to you. Pretty much every specialist tuner will tell you X or Y is the best ECU. My personal belief is that each ECU is only as good as the person tuning it.. clearly somone who only does the occasional wolf is not going to be able to tune it as well as someone who does it every day. whatever you choose, my advice is take it to the best known tuner of that ecu in your area, the extra $$ are worth paying for the best tune.
EDIT: just to add, in two seperate runs it took less than 2 hours to tune my car on the dyno, thats from a scratch MAP. if you want to look how straight they got the torque curve have a look in the members section at my graph.
[Updated on: Tue, 22 June 2004 23:18]
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Location:
Syndey
Registered:
December 2002
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Re: Would Wolf3D be good to use on 20 Valve
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Wed, 23 June 2004 05:55
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| oldcorollas wrote on Wed, 23 June 2004 02:42 |
oh god, running most motors in alpha-N mode (TPS only) is a pretty suckful way of doing things..
even if you have shitty vacuum, if you set the MAP axis points correctly, then it will be foine...
case in point, alfa 2L, idle MAP was 75kpa (absolute), MAP axis set in 3kpa increments up to 95kpa, runs perfectly.
for those ECU's with fixed 'load points' makes it a bit more tricky, as with a 75kpa MAP leaves you only 3 or 4 load points to tune with
you should be running off the MAP sensor for the load sensing, and using the TPS for accel and decell only...
Dale, what sort of torque are your 20V's making? (flywheel)
Cya, Stewart
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id have to have a look at the sheets mate, all will be torque at the wheels tho,
i have done about 8 20v's now and all have made between 91 and 95kw NA and 135kw on 8psi with a turbo and drive like a factory car.
Dale
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