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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Thu, 11 December 2003 22:50
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A useful tech article on a Yank forum... I'm speechless! 
Seriously though, check out this thread on the CelicaSupra forums (especially the second page):
http://www.celicasupra.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t= 4663
I expect many of you have seen this already, but I thought I'd flag it for those who haven't. In summary, it seems that R32 Skyline rotors will fit on MA61 hubs with a small amount of machining. Apparently the 4-piston calipers will fit with not much effort as well although there's not much detail on that part.
So what do you experts think of this? (Ed and GT, I'm looking at you!) I'm thinking that if I can find the components for a sensible price, I'd like to give it a shot. I'd also like to investigate R33 brakes, which are larger and apparently interchangeable? Not that I know much about Skylines...
I'm especially interested in this upgrade because the two major downsides actually work out really well for me. The first one is you have to re-drill the Skyline rotors to 4-stud, but for those of us doing the 5-stud upgrade that's not necessary (Skylines have the same PCD). The second one is the extra ~8mm offset created by the Skyline rotor hat which means you need higher offset wheels, and wouldn't you know it, I just paid for a set of wheels with +25mm offset! I was worried about strut clearance but that extra 8mm will help things a lot. 
Anyway, time to start chasing prices on Skyline brakes...
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 00:09
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Hiya Norbs,
Had a quick scan of the article, and from what I can see, the following applies (will print off and read more carefully when not at work ) ;
- They are mounting the discs to the outside face of the hub (needing the longer studs) rather than at the back where the current rotor sits ?
- I priced the DBA rotors for the R32, and for some reason they are $450 each for the slotted std rotors, and $316.80 for the 4000 series version - note the R32 GTR rotors are 324mm dia, whereas the 'normal' R32 are only 280mm dia (DBA909)
- The 300ZX calipers later Z32 mobel (the ones I have) need 60mm between the outboard disc face and wheel centre to clear - and judging from the pics of your wheels Norbs, the distance between the mag mounting face and the wheel spokes is bugger all
- In my situation (with 16" B45 Simmons) I need a disc with a total height of 70mm and mount it in the normal fashion to be able to gain sufficient clearance to the wheel centre face/bolts, let alone what is needed if it is mounted to the outside face of the hub
If I can get a disc with the offset that I mentioned, and a Holden Rotor is the closed bet at the moment, I can just squeeze a 330mm rotor in, but they are 28mm thick, whereas the calipers can take 30mm
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 00:23
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Hiya Norbs,
The R32 GTR Rotors are DBA928, or the 4000 series ones are DBA4928.
The prices that I got before were straight from Autospeed, so I hadn't done any bargain hunting. I'll check out discpads.com though and compare the other prices.
When do your wheels arrive ?
My 16x8" have a +23mm offset, and they just clear the struts and are beautifully flush with the front flare lip. Yours should be sweet as 
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 00:31
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Apparently they're scheduled to arrive in late January. That should give me enough time to source some MS65 hubs and chase up some prices for brake components, with plenty of procrastination in between.
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Location:
eastern suburbs, Melb
Registered:
April 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 01:25
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Great find Norbie.
Can you tell me if the MA hubs and struts are the same as the ra stuff.
Thanks Damian
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 01:42
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If you're talking about RA6x Celicas, the hubs are the same or at least interchangeable. There's no reason this upgrade wouldn't work on a Celica, and in fact with a small amount of extra fabrication it would even work on earlier Celicas right back to the RA23.
*Looks at the RA23 in the driveway* Hmmm, that's got me thinking...
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 01:58
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I have some R32 calipers and discs floating around at home.. Was trying to make them fit the RA28.
Going to go read this article now and see if it'll help as I was a bit stuck before...
Norbie, did you follow any of that thread I had going on the nissan 4 spot brake upgrade?
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 02:06
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Are they saying in that article that the Nissan caliper will bolt to the original caliper mounting points?
The Nissan caliper has 100mm bolt spacing. Is that the same as the Supra's?
I was playing around with ST141 struts as these have 100mm spacing.
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 02:20
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Actually I'm not sure about the calipers, they didn't say much about that. Fabricating mounting brackets for calipers is easy though so that doesn't worry me too much; the challenge is getting a rotor with suitable dimensions on the hubs!
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 02:25
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I was lucky enough to get the calipers (alloy ones) and rotors in good condition for around $250.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 03:15
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OMG! You found something good on there! 
Methinks a trip through the DBA catalogs is once again in order. If the rotors are going to affect offset though, what does that mean for the new wheels you have coming Norbie?
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Location:
Brisbane
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 03:25
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As I explained above, this upgrade ideally needs a wheel with higher offset... and yes, my new wheels have higher offset so it works well!
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 03:26
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Ahh, ok, sorry, I was confused with Ed's rims which have quite a low offset.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 03:28
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My calipers, 92 - 94 Z32 300ZX (the larger pad models) were picked up for $275, and they can take up to a 30mm thick disc.
Joel, you got a good deal there.
For me, the rotors that are starting to lend themselves as being the best are the Holden HSV ones . Either DBA046 or DBA048. Rtahre than mount them on the face of the hub, I'd mount them on the rear of the hub, but that still depends on what actually fits.
If the discs are fitted over the hubs, the offset would be affected by 6 - 8mm dpending on the disc, but you would need longer studs and a wheel/disc centre spigot to be machined
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 04:27
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I can understand your reservations about having to modify the hub to fit the disc over the top, but I don't like your chances of being able to mount a disc with a total height of 83mm on the back face of the hub.
This is compounded by the fact the MS65 hub actually sits this face 10mm further inboard than the MA61 hub. On top of that didn't someone say you'd have trouble finding adequate clearance for the caliper too?
Perhaps we need someone to actually measure up the real room we have to play with, the idea of using the Holden disc behind the hub is nice, but it doesn't mean anything if it's not going to come close to fitting. Why don't you knock together your front strut with the hub (you have both of these right?) and measure what clearance there is from the hub to the strut.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 05:21
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Hi there. I have only ever been called an expert once before...and the next word was wanker!
Of course you can mount your rotor over the top of the hub - floating rotor. Of course you need to make sure the hub fits inside the rotor hat, that there is some way to centralise the rotor and you will need some longer wheel studs (the only thing a Magna is good for).
I had always thought that the HSV range of rotors would be the bee's knees with this sort of arrangement and actually started to look at doing exactly this. With rotors ranging from 300mm right up to 345mm, here are some very attractive bogan spec rotors that might work (nevertheless everything I said about 300+mm rotors being exxy still applies). They have a reasonable rotor height (70-80 or so mm depending on rotor) and I know that the MS65 hub will fit inside a VT front rotor hat with a little machining (nothing major). I cant remember what the outer spigot diameter is (I know the inner is 76mm, and I think the outer is 67mm - you guys will need to measure it to be sure) - however I think you will need to make a collar to keep the disc centred - I have done this for my Crown and used some grub screws to keep the disc and collar secured.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 05:27
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I should add the amount of machining required to get the MS65 hub under a VT rotor is minimal - somethin like 5mm reduction in radius. If you look carefully at the edge of your hub you will see this pissy little lip that is begging to be removed.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 10:41
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OK, heres a question.
Don't want to switch to MS65 hubs due to rarity in my area and likelihood of my car being crashed (realisticly, race on gravel or any surface and crashing is a definite possibility).
What is wrong with redrilling the RA63 hubs to 5 stud and then doing the R32 rotor/caliper upgrade (parts which are easy to get around here)? Does it cause any serious weakness issues if done by a proper engineering firm with all the good gear? Will the redrilled hubs be seriously out of balance.
I would also have the rear hubs redrilled to match (MS123's are pretty hard to find here as well) to give me a much better range of 15 inch wheels (Falcon, cheap and plentiful).
Callum
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Location:
Lost in the K hole
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Fri, 12 December 2003 10:58
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| Purple_Beasty wrote on Fri, 12 December 2003 21:41 |
What is wrong with redrilling the RA63 hubs to 5 stud and then doing the R32 rotor/caliper upgrade
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if you actually look at the hubs, youll answer your own question
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Sun, 14 December 2003 20:46
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| justcallmefrank wrote on Fri, 12 December 2003 15:27 |
This is compounded by the fact the MS65 hub actually sits this face 10mm further inboard than the MA61 hub. On top of that didn't someone say you'd have trouble finding adequate clearance for the caliper too?
Perhaps we need someone to actually measure up the real room we have to play with, the idea of using the Holden disc behind the hub is nice, but it doesn't mean anything if it's not going to come close to fitting. Why don't you knock together your front strut with the hub (you have both of these right?) and measure what clearance there is from the hub to the strut.
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Hi Frank,
I tend not to agree with the first point above. The depth of the hub from mag mounting face to the disc mounting face is within 1mm on the MS65 hubs that I have. Where the outer face sits in relation to the MA61 hub, I have not yet determined.
I am in the process of trying to obtain a dead DBA046 rotor (same as used in Commodore Cup racing I think) that is 328mm dioa x 28mm thick. This will enable me to work out it it will fit on the strut.
If this doesn't work for me, it is back to the drawing boad or looking at another tyre of caliper that is a little thinner
Cheers
Michael B
edit : If I can't fit the Holden rotors to the back of the hubs, then there is little point in fitting them to the front of the hubs, as there are other otors that will achieve the same end effect without resorting to a mounting collar and longer wheel studs.
[Updated on: Sun, 14 December 2003 22:17]
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 07:23
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I haven't had them off to compare. As far as I can remember I was told they were 10mm further inboard, but I don't have spare MA61 hubs to check.
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: If I can't fit the Holden rotors to the back of the hubs, then there is little point in fitting them to the front of the hubs, as there are other rotors that will achieve the same end effect without resorting to a mounting collar and longer wheel studs.
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Which rotors are you talking about? Thing is, if we don't have a lot of room that rules out most rotors. Failing going to a two piece rotor with a custom hat, you're going to find that nearly all rotors (well, all in the DBA catalog) that are as big as you want (300mm+) have a real big overall height and you're back to square one. By all means try it out, proving me wrong would make it a LOT easier for everyone (please prove me wrong  ) but it seems most cars with big rotors are usually mounted over the hub (ala Commodore) or mount them on the back but have them right in.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 20:53
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Hi Frank,
If you look at my posts in
http://forums.toymods.org.au/index.php?t=msg&t h=21852&rid=3701&S=08d6c7b239abee395109b92 b27af97f5&pl_view=&start=0#msg_180631
You will see some rotors listed that are over 300mm in dia and mount behind the hub.
Don't forget that my situation may be different due to the Simmons B45 rims in 16" (calipeer gets close to the rim half bolts) and the calipers that I am using (300ZX alloys)...
That said, I took some more quick measurements last night, and it seems taht a rotor with a total height of around 50 - 55mm may still work in my situation.
There has been further info added to the CelicaSupra.com page that norbs highlighted earlier.
I seems taht the 300ZX calipers mount directly to the MA61 struts !!!!
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 21:58
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When I was playing around with the conversion that was the problem I ran into, I was trying to find a rotor to bolt to the rear of the hub, but it practically could have no height offset at all.. So only thing I could come up with was a 2 piece job.
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 22:22
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Joel, I followed that with interest. However if you mad a caliper bracket potentially you could have a bit more flexability.
PS nice work with the rack and pinion.
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Location:
Terrigal
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 22:42
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Yeah a custom bracket and NSX rotors I think are the way to go in my case. Now the rack is done will have to get stuck back into the brakes and re-investigate options. This thread may help
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Mon, 15 December 2003 23:04
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Joel,
Have you looked at the Mitsi 3000Gt rotors (DBA216 - 314 dia x 30 thick with 46mm total height & $116.89 as a slotted rotor), and Scubi WRX STi GC8 rotors (DBA4654 - 326 dia x 30 thick with 53mm total height & $190.08 as a slotted 4000 series rotor) ?
The NSX rotors are much more expensive.
I'm looking at the above rotors as the best solution at the moment with the Scubie rotors leading the charge. The 4000 series rotors are better suited to track work and have better material as well as better cooling.
Also, both rotors are 30mm thick and suit the 300ZX calipers better than the 25mm NSX rotors.
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
Perth
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Tue, 16 December 2003 00:22
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The NSX rotors, both of them are MUCHO expensive 
We need to work out exactly how much room is there, I don't just mean to the wheel, but to the strut itself when it's all mounted up.
If 50mm is going to clear the strut, I'd love to see, but from others that I've spoken to, that may be too tall to fit...but then again, they measured it up and I didn't.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Tue, 16 December 2003 08:17
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Ok,looked through the trusty DBA catalogue and came up with some numbers for possible front rotors.
AU II & III Falcon DBA 502
287 65 28 71.8 5
and BA Falcon DBA 504
298 65 28 71.5 5
Now when compared to the Skyline rotor which requires the Skyline caliper to space out 10mm.
Skyline DBA 909
280 54 30 68 5
Wouldn't the greater depth put you pretty close to the rotor lining up in the caliper without the caliper spaced out? This of course depends on the thickness of the mounting face (Skyline approx 8mm) and would need a 2mm spacer behind the outer pad to suit the slightly narrower disc.
Obviously all theoretical, can anyone point out any obvious flaws? Not sure how the 298mm disc will go for caliper clearance diameter wise, but the 287mm should be fine.
On another note, I measured up an RB25 R33 for caliper clearance and it definitely fits factory 15 inch 1990 Fairlane alloys, not sure on other Falcon wheels.
Callum
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Location:
Finland
Registered:
November 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Tue, 16 December 2003 11:27
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Guys who are planning floating rotor setup, hear this. I have RS50 front drum hubs. Are these same as MS65 hubs dunno, but these have same bearings as my Corona. Favourable aspects in drum hubs are allready smaller flange (153mm) and possibility of 2 or 3 different PCD's. I belive also that drum hubs are lighter than rotor hubs. Im going to drill 5x120(BMW) PCD beside 5x114.3 PCD for sure and maybe MB's 5x112 PCD. Also changing rotor's in future is less PITA.
Notice that crown drum hubs wont work in corona/hilux/peugeot combo. This because every rotor that will fit over hub, wont fit between caliper and hub.
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Tue, 16 December 2003 20:51
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Callum,
The rotors that you looked at were too small for my tastes. Due to intended track work, I want the best brakes possible, and this means biggest. I'm aiming for the Subie Rotors atht are 326mm dia x 30mm thick.
Jayem,
Agree with your point of the floating rotor being easier to change, but how often do you change your discs ???
Alos, you have to suff around machining a sleeve that will centralise the rotor and wheel.
Cheers
Michael B
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I supported Toymods
Location:
I renounced punctuation
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Wed, 17 December 2003 01:27
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Jayem, if your RS50 has disc brakes and the calipers are the Sumitomo 2 spot calipers, then the RS50 hubs are the same. I have used import MS55 hubs - in Australia a company called AMI made some povpack model Crowns and the few that were made with disc brakes actually have different hubs.
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Wed, 17 December 2003 07:48
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| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 09:51 |
Callum,
The rotors that you looked at were too small for my tastes. Due to intended track work, I want the best brakes possible, and this means biggest. I'm aiming for the Subie Rotors atht are 326mm dia x 30mm thick.
Cheers
Michael B
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I was thinking more for people looking for a bolt on solution, do you know if a 287 or 298 mm disc will fit in the Skyline caliper on the factory caliper mounts? Or is the diameter too large? From the Skyline I looked at (not sure if it sits at the same diameter on the Skyline) the 287 looks ok but the 298 would hit the caliper.
Callum
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Wed, 17 December 2003 21:25
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| Purple_Beasty wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 18:48 |
| bbaacchhyy wrote on Wed, 17 December 2003 09:51 |
Callum,
The rotors that you looked at were too small for my tastes. Due to intended track work, I want the best brakes possible, and this means biggest. I'm aiming for the Subie Rotors atht are 326mm dia x 30mm thick.
Cheers
Michael B
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I was thinking more for people looking for a bolt on solution, do you know if a 287 or 298 mm disc will fit in the Skyline caliper on the factory caliper mounts? Or is the diameter too large? From the Skyline I looked at (not sure if it sits at the same diameter on the Skyline) the 287 looks ok but the 298 would hit the caliper.
Callum
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Have a look at the link that norbie provided to the Yank forums. I think that the guy is looking at using some discs from a Honda Legend or similar.
In my view, why not do the job properly once. Tyres for the 14" rims are a poor selection and they are getting harder to find, hence my move to the 16".
Cheers
Michael B
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Location:
New Zealand
Registered:
May 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Thu, 18 December 2003 06:08
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I was actually looking to use 15's, don't think 14's will clear the Skyline caliper anyway. For me the caliper mounting is the limiter on disc size as i want to use the standard caliper mount and avoid spacers if possible.
It is also hard to get rally tyres in 16 inch too...
Callum
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Registered:
August 2002
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Registered:
August 2002
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Thu, 18 December 2003 12:44
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just realised the price of these things is insane!
wilwood looks much better!
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Location:
Adelaide
Registered:
September 2003
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Re: MA61 brake upgrades... again!
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Thu, 18 December 2003 20:43
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The DBA 5000 series rotors can be quite pricey and the Wilwood discs are quite a reasonable alternative for the street.
Make sure that if you use Wilwood discs that you get the Curved Vane Rotors.
Cheers
Michael B
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